MXUS 3000 Hub Motor - V1 V2 V3

[Samd]

Its a 83/110

Something not right with the drag there. I can post a photo of a v3 turned easily unlaced at the shaft.

I still think the adappto isnt set up right.


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[Offroader]

Its a 83/110

Something not right with the drag there. I can post a photo of a v3 turned easily unlaced at the shaft.

I still think the adappto isnt set up right.


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yes this could be a problem, I didn't manually go in there and tweak it because I've only taken the bike out for two short rides. I think I heard that manually changing the settings could make a big difference with the heat if autodetect doesn't set it right.

 

[brumbrum]

Its a 83/110

Something not right with the drag there. I can post a photo of a v3 turned easily unlaced at the shaft.

I still think the adappto isnt set up right.


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yes this could be a problem, I didn't manually go in there and tweak it because I've only taken the bike out for two short rides. I think I heard that manually changing the settings could make a big difference with the heat if autodetect doesn't set it right.

I gave up on autodetect a long time ago. Take some time out to adjust angle corr and ind timing if nothing else. Angle corr according to Allex should always stay between +5 and -5, but i am sure you already will know this.

 

[Allex]

MXUS should use KTY84 instead. It is more accurate in the upper regions. KTY83 can flactuate quite a bit this is why Adaptto changed to kty84.

 

[ecycler]

Some thoughts for solving this mystery...

1. Crack the case open.
2. You can use a heat gun of a known temperature to check the sensor.
3. You could install a second temp sensor to see if it reads the same.

I personally would open it regardless, it is possible the drag is coming from wires or epoxy that could be scraping on the inside of the case. They might have had a sloppy assembler who used too or did not tighten things down properly and it was just barely noticeable enough to pass QA. This would eventually lead to a much larger headache than just double checking it now.

 

[Offroader]

Its a 83/110

Something not right with the drag there. I can post a photo of a v3 turned easily unlaced at the shaft.

I still think the adappto isnt set up right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yes this could be a problem, I didn't manually go in there and tweak it because I've only taken the bike out for two short rides. I think I heard that manually changing the settings could make a big difference with the heat if autodetect doesn't set it right.

I gave up on autodetect a long time ago. Take some time out to adjust angle corr and ind timing if nothing else. Angle corr according to Allex should always stay between +5 and -5, but i am sure you already will know this.

I printed out Allex post about how to manually set it up. My angle correction is set at 10 degrees, so it is off a bit from the -5/5

I honestly never bothered to do this with my cromotor, the values set for the cromotor were always fine but I still should have played around with the settings to
see how they affected the motor.

Here is the post link that Allex wrote up with how to manually set it up. Lots of good tips in there also.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1185310#p1185310

What concerns me with the MXUS is that most likely the thermistor is fine, there are actually two thermistors on the MXUS Turbo so I can switch to the other one. What is concerning is that it seems the winding temps get super hot but the heat is not being transfered to the motor case. There is a good chance that the thermal path from windings to stator is not as good as the Cromotors.

It seems like this shouldn't be but the motor housing is simply not getting hot and the winding temps are getting super hot.

This is not the case on the cromotor where the motor housing gets super hot as the winding temps get hot. When the Cromotor reaches 200F+ range the motor case is burning hot to the touch. I've yet to get the MXUS case more then warm to the touch.

Of course the use of FF will help this.

One other thing I'm not liking about the MXUS is that while it does seem to have as much torque as the cromotor V3, for some reason when doing wheelies it will get the front of the wheel up easily at first. But when you start to fall from the wheelie at speed and hit the throttle to get the front back up it seems to lack the power the cromotor v3 had. So the motor seems to have good torque at 0-5MPH, but at 10-20MPH it lacks the torque the cromotor has. Maybe this could be in the settings.

I do wheelies a lot lately and can start them as high as 30MPH with the cromotor at full charge, I don't think this will be the case with the MXUS. So I may have to use a heavier more powerful motor after all.

I really need to do a lot more testing and comparisons with the cromotor, just sucks that its winter and always too cold or too wet.

 

[brumbrum]

Offroader, Keep up with the info on the mxus, i have one here from Merlin in the group buy, I haven't even got around to opening the box yet and its been here for weeks. My main worry is that it will over heat much quicker than my Cro. If i decide to keep it and build a second bike i will be adding ff and external sinks for sure. Sounds weird that rhe covers aint getting hot, once my cro reaches 100*C you cant keep your hand on the cover very long.

Also feeling your pain with the weather. :x

 

[Allex]

Offroader, Did you really had the temp sensor on cro on the same spot as on mxus?
croatians usually put their sensor on the stator
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=61496#p918631

This will give a whole different measure - it will take a lot more time to heat up the sensor on the stator compared to a contact directly on windings.
Having a sensor hitting 150°C during a peak on windings will not give you a hot stator nor will it have impact on the outer case.
But if you heat your windings for such a long time that your stator becomes 150°C this will heat you outer casing by a lot!

So placing the sensor on the stator instead will probably give you about the same heat experience as you see on your cro.

 

[Offroader]

Allex, I had to place a new KTY sensor because the NTC10K was not reading lower temps on the max-e. I placed it inside the windings using your thermal paste method. So it is inside the windings but questionable how well the thermal paste is touching the windings and the thermistor. MXUS places it on top of the windings and uses some kind of thermal epoxy so it is very secured to the windings.

I did do a 13 mile ride and the motor was still only warm to the touch, with that distance the motor should have been fully heated.

When setting the IND Timing, should you be actually riding the bike on the street or can you lift the wheel to do this? It doesn't specify in the post you wrote up.

 

[Allex]

You do IND with the wheel up.
Honestly I never get any motor warm to the touch as long as I have a temp limit of 150C. I never tried a cro though.
even with FF it is not hot, because heat is shed of while you ride. In my experience they only get really hot only in a few minutes once you stop because then you don't have any ventilation going on.

 

[Samd]

I think the kty has a margin of about two degrees. Thats accurate enough.

Why would anyone think the mxus displays some sort of random torque degradation after a few seconds of wheelies compared to a cro?

Free AC motor theory textbooks for everyone this Xmas.


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[Offroader]

The cromotor case gets really hot ( around 70-75C ) even if you never go over 100C after a certain amount of miles, it may take like 10 seconds to get hot if you have just been riding fast.

If you never noticed your MXUS getting hot, and no one else seems to notice it getting hot, then there must be a reason the heat doesn't spread to the motor housing like it does with the cromotor. I own two cromotors and both of them get hot.

But that is the least of my concerns because I plan on modifying it for cooling, it is just interesting to know why the MXUS housing wouldn't get as hot.

What I have to figure out is why I am feeling and hearing that resistance. It was really noticeable when manually tuning the motor when running at slow speeds like 5-8 MPH, with the wheel off the ground. I also feel it vibrating through the bike. Something just isn't right and I must find the problem.

I'm going to have to open it up but I know I will probably not find anything obvious. Then I will consider what else could be causing it.

Does anyone know if this could be from some kind of short in the windings? Is the only way to really check this is to rewind the whole motor, because I'll consider doing that. Unless there is some other way to figure out if it is a short without rewinding the motor. Maybe I could desolder where the 3 phases are connected temporarily, and then resolder them back.

 

[brumbrum]

Allex, I had to place a new KTY sensor because the NTC10K was not reading lower temps on the max-e. I placed it inside the windings using your thermal paste method. So it is inside the windings but questionable how well the thermal paste is touching the windings and the thermistor. MXUS places it on top of the windings and uses some kind of thermal epoxy so it is very secured to the windings.

I did do a 13 mile ride and the motor was still only warm to the touch, with that distance the motor should have been fully heated.

When setting the IND Timing, should you be actually riding the bike on the street or can you lift the wheel to do this? It doesn't specify in the post you wrote up.

Apologies for side tracking again, but out of interest where was the NTC temp probe positioned inside the Cro? Was it on the stator or on the windings?

 

[Offroader]

Originally Cromotor placed the thermal sensor epoxied just below the windings, as shown in the picture below. This was a NTC10K



But I have since replaced with a KTY83 inside the windings as best I can with using thermal paste squeezed into it. Then I used silicone on top of that to hold it into place. As shown below which is the best picture I could find. What you are seeing is the silicone on top of the probe and wires.

 

[brumbrum]

Would there really be a huge difference in air temperature between the two probe positionings? Or is it more important to know the surface temps of the copper or the alu stator? At the end isn't overheating mostly a concern about magnets, hall sensors and wire insulation? Or am i missing something much more important :?

 

[Offroader]

Just wanted to report quickly that I took the bike out today for a very short ride after changing the angle and IND settings and now the MXUS seems to be able to wheelie fine now. It is able to pull the bike up in a wheelie at speed like the cromotor. So I am able to lift the front wheel back up again with the throttle when I start to fall in a wheelie. Before it seemed to lack the power to do this.

I changed the angle setings from -13 to -4
IND timing I set from 430 to 64.

I'm not really sure how these settings could have had such a drastic effect so I'm wondering if maybe I didn't test the bike enough before or possibly I just needed my wheelie skills back which came back today. I'll have to put the old settings back and see.

What didn't make sense was the MXUS seemed to have as much torque at lower speeds as the cromotor but lacked the mid range torque, it is possible these settings play more into the mid range power?

But this is good news because the MXUS is able to wheelie my bike and may be more similar in power to the cromotor v3.

 

[brumbrum]

Just wanted to report quickly that I took the bike out today for a very short ride after changing the angle and IND settings and now the MXUS seems to be able to wheelie fine now. It is able to pull the bike up in a wheelie at speed like the cromotor. So I am able to lift the front wheel back up again with the throttle when I start to fall in a wheelie. Before it seemed to lack the power to do this.

I changed the angle setings from -13 to -4
IND timing I set from 430 to 64.

I'm not really sure how these settings could have had such a drastic effect so I'm wondering if maybe I didn't test the bike enough before or possibly I just needed my wheelie skills back which came back today. I'll have to put the old settings back and see.

What didn't make sense was the MXUS seemed to have as much torque at lower speeds as the cromotor but lacked the mid range torque, it is possible these settings play more into the mid range power?

But this is good news because the MXUS is able to wheelie my bike and may be more similar in power to the cromotor v3.

Ind timing will effect how much throttle/effort is needed to get to cruising/mid motor speed. So yes it will effect how much acceleration and top speed you get when you mash the throttle from this point. 64 is very very low. From what i have observed most people report using between 300 and 600. But, i am sure you can get a more scientific answer from those in the know.

 

[Offroader]

For IND timing how I did it was that at the IND autodetect setting of 430 the motor was using 170 watts at speed 41 MPH.

When I turned the IND timing down to 64 it was using 110 watts at 41 MPH. The motor also sounded more quiet at 64 than 430. So I assumed this had to be better. At IND 0, it seemed to start using a little more watts so 64 I found was the best value.

I limited my motor speed by using low amps in ECO mode so I was pushing it full throttle to hit the 41 MPH. Maybe I did this all wrong because maybe 64 seems too low , so I will have to look at it again, but I made sure my speed at both settings was at 41 MPH when looking at the watts.

 

[brumbrum]

What you have said does make perfect sense and using eco mode to limit speed is a great idea, All i can tell you is to get to accurate cruising speed you need to go into the debug screen and watch the numbers and letter change, when it gets to letter D this is your true cruise speed.
From the manual...
look at the debug screen which can be reached from the main screen by pressing the button combination "left-up-up." In the row "OA:xxxx DA = xxxx Axxxx" look at "Axxxx". Look at the first digit after the letter "A" and gradually speed up the motor. It will begin to change in the following order: 8, 9, A, B, C, D, E, F. Accordingly, F corresponds to the maximum speed and 8 to the minimum. Cruising speed corresponds to the letter "D". After reaching motor cruising speed start changing ind timing parameter. Select a value where the cruising speed is achieved with minimal effort (i.e. the minimum throttle).
If the wheel does not spin or vice versa spins very quickly, very high speed is not valuable. Keep current consumption at no more than 5-7 amps. Under strong throttle, settings above certain values will make the motor begin to accelerate and get noisy. This should be avoided, reduce the throttle input. The value generally should be slightly less than the threshold at which the motor begins to accelerate and get noisy.

 

[Samd]

I was concerned by the cogging view above being a function of the motor not controller. I had to true up a v3 in a rim tonight so shot a quick video of the lack of cogging when the phase wires are truly open circuit.

Is it possible the adappto has a coasting regen level set like some controllers?

https://youtu.be/NuVqYHYRdZA


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[madin88]

[

I printed out Allex post about how to manually set it up. My angle correction is set at 10 degrees, so it is off a bit from the -5/5

Do manual tuning.

Is it possible the adappto has a coasting regen level set like some controllers?

he had everything disconnected

 

[Samd]

Gotta be a short then or a seized bearing.


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[Offroader]

Made a quick video of the Low pitch hum noise I am talking about. Make sure your speaker volume is turned up and sub on if you have one. I just pointed my bikes rear dash cam down at the wheel and also removed the bikes chain.

EDIT: I just watch the video on my cell phone and you can not hear the low pitch hum, it is very loud on my computer speakers with subwoofer. So you really need to watch the video with something where you can hear low-frequency noises. Maybe computer headphones will work that can play low sounds. You won't hear the noise on a cell phone, so don't even watch it.

EDIT2: You can hear the low noise on a good set of headphones, but you will lose the annoying effect of it vibrating through your body like a sub woofer would do or the actual motor will do.

Please let me know what yout think.

[youtube]3Pmdr1OokQU[/youtube]

 

[Rix]

I can hear it just fine. DAMN! Thats not a mechanical structural issue such as brakes rubbing or a bad bearing. Confirm it disappears when you go faster?

 

[Offroader]

I can hear it just fine. DAMN! Thats not a mechanical structural issue such as brakes rubbing or a bad bearing. Confirm it disappears when you go faster?

Hard to believe it would be a bearing. Yes it does smooth out and disappear after 7MPH. You will also not feel the low pitched noise vibrate through the bike.

Reason I find it hard to believe it would be a bearing is that at slow constant spin with throttle at 2-3 MPH I don't hear it. But for some reason I hear it when the wheel is spinning down at 1-3 MPH with no throttle. Why would it make the low hum when spinning down with no throttle at 1-3 MPH, but not spinning the wheel with throttle constant at 1-3 MPH. I don't think a bearing would do this.

This is really annoying because you can feel it also, just doesn't feel right. Since it happens at 5MPH you will feel it when pushing the bike or riding really slow.