kingjamez
100 W
Newagebike said:
Not if it's an unweldable alloy. Who knows what alloy you'll get and whether what the factory says is actually true?
My 60mph ebike build
- Thread starter Newagebike
- Start date
Not if it's an unweldable alloy. Who knows what alloy you'll get and whether what the factory says is actually true?
Newagebike
10 W
This is a repatutel company as time has proved. It is a common Aluminum alloy 6061 T6 which is easy to weld. Like I said I am just curious and in this stage I am checking out all options and of course learning.
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Plating an ebike totally defeats the purpose. Get an electric motorcycle for that. The whole point of an ebike is flying under the radar and going anywhere. Putting a big tag on it that's personally identifiable and then having to pay all the associated fees and insurance is just sick.
Aluminum frame not as strong as steel...either one can be made arbitrarily strong depending on the alloy, design and how heavy.
Anyway, I wouldn't count on welding any structural aluminum. Aluminum welds from a TIG torch, MIG gun or even oxy setup are all weaker than shit until you stress relieve and heat treat the metal post welding. To lay down some numbers a aluminum TIG weld with 4043 filler, as welded, might only have 3000 psi tensile strength. After treatment that might improve half an order of magnitude. I'm a welder and it's downright SCARY how many welders are proficient in aluminum but don't know this.
So yeah if you're gonna weld this thing and abuse it, steel is the way to go 10/10 times.
Aluminum frame not as strong as steel...either one can be made arbitrarily strong depending on the alloy, design and how heavy.
Anyway, I wouldn't count on welding any structural aluminum. Aluminum welds from a TIG torch, MIG gun or even oxy setup are all weaker than shit until you stress relieve and heat treat the metal post welding. To lay down some numbers a aluminum TIG weld with 4043 filler, as welded, might only have 3000 psi tensile strength. After treatment that might improve half an order of magnitude. I'm a welder and it's downright SCARY how many welders are proficient in aluminum but don't know this.
So yeah if you're gonna weld this thing and abuse it, steel is the way to go 10/10 times.
Newagebike
10 W
I took some time to read the Florida law on bikes and simply put they are concidered vehicles which means you can get moving violation tickets, wrong/ broken equipment tickets and even a DUI.
But also I learned a bike has every right to a lane as a car as long as they can keep up with the flow of traffic, if they can't they must move to the side or move to the sidewalk which a bike has every right as a pedestrian as long as it is human powered only, ebikes can not use the sidewalk.
So here is the catch. If we ebike with proper lighting front and back, obey the law than the only thing the cops could do is make you register it or impound your bike because it is not a legally licensed vehicle because goes faster than 20mph that needs to be taxed, plate, insurance and the driver has to have a license.
What to do?
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But also I learned a bike has every right to a lane as a car as long as they can keep up with the flow of traffic, if they can't they must move to the side or move to the sidewalk which a bike has every right as a pedestrian as long as it is human powered only, ebikes can not use the sidewalk.
So here is the catch. If we ebike with proper lighting front and back, obey the law than the only thing the cops could do is make you register it or impound your bike because it is not a legally licensed vehicle because goes faster than 20mph that needs to be taxed, plate, insurance and the driver has to have a license.
What to do?
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It's way simpler than you're making it out to be.
Here's what you do.
First, build this 60 MPH ebike and make sure it's mechanically sound.
Then, here's the secret: ready?
You ride the bike with the flow of traffic, however is safe and however you please. After all, you've got plenty of power. The secret is...KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN, and if you see a cop, then just slow down and start pedaling. They will ignore you unless you're doing something crazy. I pass cops all the time, have no trouble whatsoever, and regularly cruise on my bike at 50+ MPH. My pedals aren't even connected to the rear wheel.
Here's what you do.
First, build this 60 MPH ebike and make sure it's mechanically sound.
Then, here's the secret: ready?
You ride the bike with the flow of traffic, however is safe and however you please. After all, you've got plenty of power. The secret is...KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN, and if you see a cop, then just slow down and start pedaling. They will ignore you unless you're doing something crazy. I pass cops all the time, have no trouble whatsoever, and regularly cruise on my bike at 50+ MPH. My pedals aren't even connected to the rear wheel.
Newagebike
10 W
What type of frame do you have is it a bike or a purpose build ebike frame like I am building. I am just going to build it and go without licensing it but with that said I will know how to license it if needed.
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MadRhino
100 GW
Funny how people do care more about the material that a frame is made with, than its manufacturing quality, geometry, suspension design, stiffness and handling.
I would not have fun riding the EEB frame 60 mph, even if it was made with Sterling silver.
I would not have fun riding the EEB frame 60 mph, even if it was made with Sterling silver.
Newagebike
10 W
I care about that stuff because when you build anything it must be made to be able to handle what it was made to do. I always over build so as not to over stress what I built.
The EEB frame is small and light for the power it will have and should handle very well. It will be way lighter than the yz125's I used to ride.
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The EEB frame is small and light for the power it will have and should handle very well. It will be way lighter than the yz125's I used to ride.
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MadRhino
100 GW
It is not a matter of overbuilding. I have no doubt that a qualified welder can make it solid. It is about building a bike frame that has good suspension and cornering at high speed. Building a FS frame that has good high speed handling, is a design exercise that does require many tries, and many test rides at every try, and proper diagnosis from the test pilot to know what to change.
So far, ebike specific frames that are offered on the market are not brilliant for suspension design and lateral stiffness in high speed cornering. That is why most of us building fast bikes are starting with a good used DH racing frame that has a proven design. You know, the DH World Cup frames that major manufacurers did develop over years of tests with a whole team and millions of $, to stand a chance to win a WC title... They are light and stiff and riding real good at high speed, much better than many motorcycles that I have had in my life.
I am not saying that you can't do as good, but sure not with your first, nor the fifth for what matters.
So far, ebike specific frames that are offered on the market are not brilliant for suspension design and lateral stiffness in high speed cornering. That is why most of us building fast bikes are starting with a good used DH racing frame that has a proven design. You know, the DH World Cup frames that major manufacurers did develop over years of tests with a whole team and millions of $, to stand a chance to win a WC title... They are light and stiff and riding real good at high speed, much better than many motorcycles that I have had in my life.
I am not saying that you can't do as good, but sure not with your first, nor the fifth for what matters.
Newage, my build is on a Gary Fisher Sugar 4+. You can see pics in this thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=87829 Right now I have a stealth battery but I used to ride with a gigantic battery and all kinds of wires on the top tube. Bike is like 70 lbs.
My take on MadRhino's last post is if your bike is structurally sound 99% of safely surviving rides at speed will be technique. My bike's dampers are low quality and totally blown but it still is an absolute blast to carve just stand up out of the seat on the outside pedal. And most bicycles I've ridden have surprisingly good handling at high speed. Additionally, a "real" mountain bike, not even downhill, WILL NOT be highly stressed riding 50-60 MPH on the street with a lightweight rider--as long as you're not landing big jumps, crashing over obstacles, etc.
So, I don't have an enduro bike. They look different but I don't think they're hugely less stealthy because they have pedals and just don't look big or intimidating PLUS the big one is it will be silent with a sine wave controller.
My take on MadRhino's last post is if your bike is structurally sound 99% of safely surviving rides at speed will be technique. My bike's dampers are low quality and totally blown but it still is an absolute blast to carve just stand up out of the seat on the outside pedal. And most bicycles I've ridden have surprisingly good handling at high speed. Additionally, a "real" mountain bike, not even downhill, WILL NOT be highly stressed riding 50-60 MPH on the street with a lightweight rider--as long as you're not landing big jumps, crashing over obstacles, etc.
So, I don't have an enduro bike. They look different but I don't think they're hugely less stealthy because they have pedals and just don't look big or intimidating PLUS the big one is it will be silent with a sine wave controller.
Newagebike
10 W
Thanks guys, I do think the welding part was misunderstood as it only came up because I am looking into the Aluminum version of the EEB frame. The welding would only be to add brackets for the controller..ect if needed, same goes with the Steel version. I have no plans to build a frame that would be crazy for a rookie like me to the whole ebike scene.
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litespeed
100 kW
kingjamez said:
Actually I don't remember. Last year just had fun with it. Right before Last Christmas I tore my left rotator cuff badly (of the four, 3 complete tears one hanging by a thread.) had surgery 1-20-17 and doc still has me on the bench for at least another month.
All that just to tell you I don't know. LOL I'll let you know where I'm at next time I'm out assuming I remember.
Tom
Newagebike
10 W
What battery are you using, did you build it, buy it or have someone make it for you? I am in the battery phase now.litespeed said:
Newagebike
10 W
Well it time for me to figure out what battery pack will power my build. I am thinking 100V x 80A and if this is the right size what to do, buy, build,have some build?
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litespeed
100 kW
Newagebike said:
I built my own. I first built an 800Watt second capacitor dishcharge welder then bought a ton of Makita battery packs from Dr Bass. Pulled all the cells and sorted them. I originally built a 24s15p pack which I down sized to 20s15p for my present build. I wanted high C batteries at an affordable price and I'm a do it myself kinda guy. I can pull 200 amps out of the pack but kinda at the limit now. I'll be building another out of VTC 5 or 6's for the next pack and go with a 30 to 40 amp pack next time around. At bicycle speeds (20 mph) I'm good for about 45 miles and at 35 mph average about 25 ish miles if I'm smooth on the throttle. I'm sure at 45 mph it would be 15 to 20 miles in a full tuck at best. Never tried that. Mine if for fun by myself. Long trips I take my safer and more comfortable Can Am Spyder Limited.
I'm thinking 80 amp pack is not doable in the frame your wanting. To do a 78 amp pack of 3 amp cells x 24s would be 624 cells. My first pack was 360 cells and to do that I had to use the cover spacers on both sides to get cells to fit end to end side to side in the battery compartment. If I would have done a complete custom shaped pack I think around 500 is doable but with wiring and other things that need to go in there it's going to be tight.
24s20p of good 3 amp cells would be a 60 amp pack and 4200 watt hour pack at 80% ....would weigh a ton but would last awhile. Also be able to put out 400 amps peak!
Good luck with your bike. Sounds pretty awesome.
Tom
Newagebike
10 W
Well did a lot of research and I will be making the battery this way I can make custom to my frame, save a ton, know I am using the best products and learn how to do something new.
http://www.ebikeschool.com really open the door for sure.
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http://www.ebikeschool.com really open the door for sure.
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Newagebike
10 W
Thanks, I will have to look into the best configuration for my motor/my needs for the Battery pack. Over 600 cells will weigh to much at the very least.litespeed said:
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Newagebike
10 W
Just thinking the LG HG2 with it's 20A would cut down the number of cells drastically and make a 100V x 80A do able.
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MadRhino
100 GW
First make it clear. Do you mean a battery capable of supplying 80A discharge current, or a battery that has 80 A/h capacity ?
The LG Hg2 is capable of 20A discharge and has a 3A/h capacity. 24s 4p will make a 12A/h battery capable of 80A discharge.
The LG Hg2 is capable of 20A discharge and has a 3A/h capacity. 24s 4p will make a 12A/h battery capable of 80A discharge.
Newagebike
10 W
MadRhino said:
Ok sorry about that, newbie learning. Yes you are correct, but also I want to up the ah this will give the battery longer life right. So i think what I should be saying is 100V x 24ah or more would be better. Your config would be 96 cells right?
MadRhino
100 GW
Yep, and 24A/h of the same cells would mean 192 cells in a configuration of 24s 8p, capable of 160A discharge. That is more typical of the kind of power that we feed big motors.
Newagebike
10 W
Ok but that would than be 88V x 24ah battery if I am correct and the cells would cost around $900 new. That would be a nice battery and it would weigh in about 21 or 22lbs finished
litespeed
100 kW
For a QS 205 motor and what your wanting it to perform like your going to need a battery capable of 200 amp bursts minimum in my opinion. You would want at least a 24s10p but a little overhead so you always not stressing the cells would be even better say 24s12p which would give a peak discharge of 240 amps which would make 200 amps pretty easy for the pack comparatively speaking.
Better to build for long term than for just now on a battery since they last so much longer these days.
Tom
Better to build for long term than for just now on a battery since they last so much longer these days.
Tom
MadRhino
100 GW
Yep. Round cells are not made to pull the max rated current very long, it is good to have more A/h than needed to keep them cool. Also, they usually have a low charching C rate, meaning a big battery will be long to charge even at the max C rate of its cells.
That is the main reason why many of us are buying RC lipo by the dozens every year, abusing them to death for performance and fast charging.
Yet, that might change soon. Better batteries are coming and my guess is that LiCo is counting its last years of glory.
That is the main reason why many of us are buying RC lipo by the dozens every year, abusing them to death for performance and fast charging.
Yet, that might change soon. Better batteries are coming and my guess is that LiCo is counting its last years of glory.
Newagebike
10 W
To go with a 24s 12p that would be 8.75" wide and 18" long. I would have to stack the cells to make it fit in the frame. 288 cells now we over $1000 for the cells.
