my electric vehicle project so far advise would be nice

[phillmoorewot]

hello all its my first time post so i hope ive got this in the right place ,

well ive been using electric vehicles for a few years now and ive been enjoying every minute of it so i thought id try and build/customize my own now i dont have welding equipment nor do i have alot of space but ive done a few years of mechanics and electrics at college so ive got a fair idea on the basics with that in hind sight im not thinking of going down the complete custom route like building a frame as ive learnt alot about EV's in the last few years of using them that its not as simple as it seems even when you think you've worked everything out :lol: , so i wanted to find people who've had experience in building and customizing EV's and that's brought me here so ill just show what ive used, what im using now and my ideas of what id like to build to see if anyone's got any ideas on what motor to use, controller etc

my first EV a sit on scooter which i bought for a fiver as it didnt have a charger and the batterys were dead from a charity shop =)

i put on the voltmeter on it myself as it was spare, i didnt have an ammeter and was doing this on a budget
from what i could find out its a very old chinese made kids scooter mine had a 190watt motor which did 8mph max ( thats with pushing lol ) and two 12volt SLA batterys
which the batterys i replaced for 50 quid form ebay and after a few months the motor grinded to a halt half way down a hill which was lovely
so i replaced that with a 290watt motor i used this for a few more months then wanted something a little more faster so i could actually use it on the road without being dangerous :lol:

so i got this from ebay its a evo powerboard x1000

disc brakes front and back and suspension

disc brakes front and back and suspension

front mono shock

power indicator with red button for 15A/30A

i had alot of fun on this got alot of looks and as it was electric the police let me use it as long as i used bike signalling and laws etc on the road so i used this for about a year to and from work and on a few occasions took it through muddy trails and once or twice over a dirt jump track near were i live in east sussex which was a right laugh but i did scrape the under side a few times as it only had ten inch wheels
1000watt brushed motor
1000watt controller with switchable 15/30Amps
ten inch tires
front and back suspension and disc brakes
alloy deck and bmx style handle bars
capable of 23mph with me (10 stone) rider on flat ground on 30A mode
3x 12volt SLA batterys
weighs about 40 kg

of course the problem i soon ran into with using this as a means of commuting and pleasure was when it ran out of battery whilst commuting or half way through a trail ride :lol: so i realised that id need another means of drive instead of lugging a very heavy scooter home to charge so i looked into electric bikes and bikes in general so that i didnt spend money on a bike that would fall apart after some time also known as BSO's ( bicycle shaped objects : things that look and appear like bikes but arnt due to being so cheaply made that they fall apart within a year or less lol ) so i like the looked into downhill/trail bikes and also dirt jump bikes as i know at some point my bike will be going through muddy trails and the occasional offroading that may include small drops ie some punishment to the bike but not alot as one i dont have alot of it around the south coast and ive got an 18 inch titanium bar in my left leg from the ankle up to my knee from breaking it in multiple places two years ago and its basically healed but it cant deal with large impacts without giving me a lovely shooting pain thats quite...fun to say the least but i dont let it bother me whilst i ride as it keeps the leg strong for work and general fitness
hence me wanting an electric bike thats capable of powering me to and from work if my legs playing up and the occasional trail ride at least if not a full offroader

well i bought this bike off my mate for a tenner as he got it from a house clearance so i can choose the base style of bike i want later without wasting money on a brand new bike with the wrong frame

a dirt jump style BSO in a very bad shape :lol:

no back brake lever and no front brake at all, the front lever is connected to the back brake :?

just to point out the tire isnt a white wall tire it looks like it because the back brake was rubbing on the tire to brake not the rim i got it this way so who ever owned it beforemy mate didnt look after it at all

the lack of the front brake assembly


so i went out and bought 90 quid worth of stuff to get it ride-able

i then went and bought a 250 watt front wheel kit from ebay with a 36 volt 10 ah lipo battery and mud guards then fitted them to the bike

ive got the thumb throttle close enough to the gear shift that i can lock it on full power like cruise control for when im on long flats etc, im currently using this to get to an from work and the occasional trail ride but id like to get closer to the power i had with my scooter 1000w or so , id looked at a magic pie 3 motor that did 24-48 volt and 250-1500watt with its built in controller and regenbraking with lipo4 battery etc for 800 quid seemed like a good idea but i dunno what magicpie 3 motors are like or golden motors etc any ideas or suggestions would be very helpuful im in the uk so i dont really want to pay import costs id like something similer to the magic pie 3 with around 1000w+ power/ 30mph would be lovely as i think it would help with my leg on bad days and battery wise if i cant mount it to the frame because of balance problems id use a backpack with waterproof connections etc thanks in advance for any help

 

[dogman dan]

Looks to me like you have good commonsense. The only thing seperating you from more power is money, and perhaps the local laws against it.

Good bike, but when you increase power with a bigger motor you can't run it on that tiny battery. With some experience under your belt now, you might consider going to RC lipo. Or A123 lifepo4. What I mean is, batteries that can handle any future increases in your watts hunger.

 

[phillmoorewot]

thankyou Dogman for the compliment and the great advice as to which cells to look at id had a glance at creating my own battery but didnt know which kind of cells to use or research into and i recall that i may also need a bms and or balancer i havent looked into it since finding below on ebay , do you or anyone know if this is a good idea for 800 quid http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Golden-Motor-1000-Watt-Electric-Bicycle-Kit-The-Simplest-and-Best-Kit-/160949338365?pt=UK_Bikes_GL&hash=item25795400fd

 

[dogman dan]

Lots of people like that motor a lot. The battery that comes with it will be a bit of a coin toss, as are nearly all battery purchases. Chinese quality controll is stuff you can usually fix on the motor, but on the battery it's much harder to fix any problems you might have.

I don't know exchange rates good enough to comment on the price.

 

[phillmoorewot]

a

 

[phillmoorewot]

^

 

[phillmoorewot]

i thought id quickly update this project thread as ive been tinkering with alot of e vehicles since an i havent got round to uploading some photos of my new builds etc etc

the franken scooter i built out of 3 different e-scooters

an my hand built old bottom bracket ebike commuter build to get to an from work lol which had a few flaws ( you had to keep pedaling and i was stuck in the lowest gear on the front as the chains would catch otherwise lol )

an the new upgrades i made so i can get to work quicker an dont have to pedal all the time :lol:

new shocks for 20 quid of ebay as the old shocks were welded rigid by age an rust

new throttle an grips so i can see battery voltage by lights an button to kill the motor incase of controller faliure

the waterproof controller bag

with a 10amp trip switch so i dont fry my battery till i upgrade it an saves many a blown fuses

the bigger an better brushless controller

and the 800w rear hub motor ( currently running around 400w due to old battery )

oh an incase your wondering ive got the battery in a backpack hence the wire hanging out the back of the seat's :lol:

 

[Tench]

If you are using a balancing charger to charge your packs why do you think you need a bms?

 

[d8veh]

You've got those lovely forks with disc brake mount, but no disc brake????? Before you you go for higher power and speed, you should treat yourself to a hydraulic disc brake that you can get from Ebay for about £30. It'll make you feel much safer. It'll be a million times better than what you've got.

Another useful upgrade is a DNP free-wheel with 11T top gear that you can get from Cyclezee for about £25.

http://www.cyclezee.com/ezee-parts.html

You might want to get a pair of their torque arms while you're at it.

 

[phillmoorewot]

If you are using a balancing charger to charge your packs why do you think you need a bms?

this is the thing im a noobie to building rc lipo an dont know what ill need to build my own i dont have any rc packs at all or chargers lol

i bought a 250w conversion kit 3 years ago an have been using the sealed lithium battery pack with a 42v lithium charger that was supplied in the kit

but if i did get 4 of the turnigy 5s1p 5000mah ready made packs an connected all 4 of those packs in 2s2p i believe id get a total of 10s2p so 37-41.5v 10,000mah how would i go about charging the whole pack? if built like so <-- do i need a bms on the 10s2p 37v 10 ah pack so my charger that came with a ebay conversion kit with 42v 2ah output to work safely or would i have to split the pack back into the 4 seperate 5s1p packs an charge via a balance charger each day etc ? ( i hope that makes sense lol)

i have been reading posts all day an see that it may be best to avoid the 50w versions as it wouldn't charge the pack quick enough an maybe i should get a higher wattage charger if the above wouldnt work ? i currently use the bike each day to go to an from work with quite a few hills in between an as my battery is nearly 3 years old i know im coming up to its rated cycle charges or death of the battery etc so need to look into building my own pack an was recommended to build my own rc lipo as 1 its cheaper than buying from online and 2 itll supply the correct amps for my rear wheel (36v 800w currently limited to around 400w via a 10 amp trip switch as anything over 10 amp will blow or overdischarge my old battery pack into certain death

 

[phillmoorewot]

You've got those lovely forks with disc brake mount, but no disc brake????? Before you you go for higher power and speed, you should treat yourself to a hydraulic disc brake that you can get from Ebay for about £30. It'll make you feel much safer. It'll be a million times better than what you've got.

Another useful upgrade is a DNP free-wheel with 11T top gear that you can get from Cyclezee for about £25.

http://www.cyclezee.com/ezee-parts.html

You might want to get a pair of their torque arms while you're at it.

lol fair enough i do have new brakes on my list to buy ( lack of money til later this month) an i only got the wheel an shocks on fri fitted it on sat an used it to go to work yesterday an today an yeah im going quite slowly as i know i cant break properly till i can get disc brakes an hence why ive limited the power as i have 2 ...100mm x 100 mm x 5mm squares of reinforced stainless steel plate metal coming for me to make my own torque arms in the post as ive seen what happens if you dont use them ....thankyou for the links ill have a look for later upgrades etc

oh i forgot to mention im currently doing all the acceleration myself an only using the motor to keep up my top speed as i dont want the motor drawing to many amps etc or running free of the mounts til ive got the torque arms made an new disc brakes installed

 

[RLT]

That second charger you linked to looks like it would be suitable.. The first one, while it is a good charger (i have and use one for single cells and small packs) isn't really meant for big packs... But four in parallel, might do the job.

I'm using this one:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__20613__Turnigy_MEGA_400Wx2_Battery_Charger_Discharger_800W_.html
and two paralleling boards
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__31314__Hobbyking_Parallel_charging_Board_for_6_packs_2_6S_HXT4mm_.html
to charge the same Turnigy 5S 5AH battery packs that you are looking at, and I like it so far.

 

[Ykick]

There’s a natural tendency to think of RC Lipo bricks as one cell but instead of saying 2S2P via 4qty it would be best described as only 10S2P. As you noted - 5 cells each for total 10 in series when you series 2 x 5S bricks. Of course, it could be any cell count bricks combined to reach 10S. 6S + 4S = 10S, 7S + 3S, so on….

It’s a great lightweight powerful battery but employing a solid method to use for commuting is confusing and possibly dangerous.

10S will get you around 41-42V (hot off charger) but instead of dealing with 5S bricks, some folks just move on up to 6S bricks and build 12S (49-50V) battery packs.

Most motor systems can handle the extra 8V (verify 63V controller capacitors) and a little extra oomph is something most folks appreciate.

Recently, I’ve become acquainted with BestTech power BMS and it’s a sweet setup for practically carefree cell management. The bitch is figuring out solid wiring harnesses and having the capability to produce (proper crimper) quality power and sense wire connections.

But if you wish to keep the bricks pretty much intact, so that they can still be broken down and thrown on an RC Charger or culled for warranty issues, it is possible. It just requires a level of skill and tools that’s gonna be hard to acquire through reading and jawing.

I learned RC Lipo starting with a small iCharger and then moved on to naked bulk charging with modified Meanwell power supply and now currently use BMS and alloy charger for my 16S packs constructed from 4qty 4S hard case bricks.

Here’s one of my 16S1P packs:
The recipe is extension balance cables plus moving pins to 8S (9-pin) housings, etc. The 4mm bullets pretty much provide a series connection and then all it takes is a bullet to APP adapter for main power lead.

I also made a 12S1P pack from 3qty 4S bricks much the same way. It's really in having ample wires and connectors on hand with the tools to assemble them in a sensible manner.

 

[999zip999]

Hub motor should make it a lot more trouble free. Now a strong battery is needed. Maybe a ebike penny jar. Moving on up.

 

[phillmoorewot]

That second charger you linked to looks like it would be suitable.. The first one, while it is a good charger (i have and use one for single cells and small packs) isn't really meant for big packs... But four in parallel, might do the job.

I'm using this one:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__20613__Turnigy_MEGA_400Wx2_Battery_Charger_Discharger_800W_.html
and two paralleling boards
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__31314__Hobbyking_Parallel_charging_Board_for_6_packs_2_6S_HXT4mm_.html
to charge the same Turnigy 5S 5AH battery packs that you are looking at, and I like it so far.

ah brilliant thank you for offering a much better alternative to the ones id looked at an yeah i had thought of 4 of the first charger but thought it could get complicated an time consuming to sort all 4 when i wanted to charge etc so included the second as it looked alright but what you've linked looks so much better for charging the packs

 

[RLT]

You will need a power supply for that 400 X2 charger I linked to.
I was using a 13.5 A - 13.5V powersupply from my C-D Welder to power it, but ordered a 580 watt, 19V charger for it that is quieter and will charge more and faster, but still won't give peak output.. One of those slightly modded computer server power supplies would allow you to get full capacity out of both channels.

 

[phillmoorewot]

There’s a natural tendency to think of RC Lipo bricks as one cell but instead of saying 2S2P via 4qty it would be best described as only 10S2P. As you noted - 5 cells each for total 10 in series when you series 2 x 5S bricks. Of course, it could be any cell count bricks combined to reach 10S. 6S + 4S = 10S, 7S + 3S, so on….

It’s a great lightweight powerful battery but employing a solid method to use for commuting is confusing and possibly dangerous.

10S will get you around 41-42V (hot off charger) but instead of dealing with 5S bricks, some folks just move on up to 6S bricks and build 12S (49-50V) battery packs.

Most motor systems can handle the extra 8V (verify 63V controller capacitors) and a little extra oomph is something most folks appreciate.

Recently, I’ve become acquainted with BestTech power BMS and it’s a sweet setup for practically carefree cell management. The bitch is figuring out solid wiring harnesses and having the capability to produce (proper crimper) quality power and sense wire connections.

But if you wish to keep the bricks pretty much intact, so that they can still be broken down and thrown on an RC Charger or culled for warranty issues, it is possible. It just requires a level of skill and tools that’s gonna be hard to acquire through reading and jawing.

I learned RC Lipo starting with a small iCharger and then moved on to naked bulk charging with modified Meanwell power supply and now currently use BMS and alloy charger for my 16S packs constructed from 4qty 4S hard case bricks.

Here’s one of my 16S1P packs:
The recipe is extension balance cables plus moving pins to 8S (9-pin) housings, etc. The 4mm bullets pretty much provide a series connection and then all it takes is a bullet to APP adapter for main power lead.

I also made a 12S1P pack from 3qty 4S bricks much the same way. It's really in having ample wires and connectors on hand with the tools to assemble them in a sensible manner.

ok thank you very much for all your info an for clearing that up ill refer to the packs as 10s1p etc etc from now on ... an my commute is only 5ish miles to an from work so i dont need a big big pack tho i may make a bigger one after getting the basics , some experience an seeing it in action etc

i will be using a large open space under shelter in the rear garden for charging an they'll be supervised whilst charging etc an monitoring in use if thats what you ment by possibly dangerous? i just wanted to make sure i havent missed anything an any general pointers for using an charging lipo packs once ive worked out how best to create the pack i dont mind splitting the pack into the separate bricks or even splitting the bricks if its safer etc an i know i need to balance an monitor the packs whilst charging an also in use via cell votage meters i believe

41-42v is what i thought would be best for my pack as that what my current battery is hot off charger (41.5v) incase i could build the pack an seal it to use the original charger etc tho i think from the posts etc an what ive researched it may not be the best idea an i could also charge the pack quicker by splitting etc...an as my new controller is a generic from ebay ( i did ask for the full specs of the contoller but didnt get any useful info other than itll supply 20-25a apparently ) i dont know how to tell if it will accept more than 42v ( ill look into checking capacitors etc an possibly open the casing to have a look at what components an model numbers are on the board inside etc)

i know the motor will happily take that voltage as ive made some scooters that had a 24v 150watt motor an pumped 36v 500watt through it for quite sometime with a different controller etc an all they did was get a little more hotter but bearable ( tho that was with brushed motors an not brush-less hubs so i dont know if there any different as most motors will 'try' an run at what ever voltage you give them :lol: tho that can kill motors an could be a bit dangerous at times )

the besttech bms sounds like what id like to use so i know the cells are all ok whilst, after use an charging etc if it works that way ... an connecting the packs power wires in series an parallel i can deal with its the sense wires an charge?balance leads ive never had before so im not sure what to do with them etc and thank you again for the info on splitting an charging the seperate packs id like to try an keep it as simple as possible but i know ill need to learn abit so i dont make any rookie mistakes and that electrics dont always work like that :lol:

your pack looks awesome by the way an helped put it in perspective of the slightly complicated wiring that ill need to work out for balancing each cell individually from the top of the pack if i dont want to split as much etc

ive had a look at alot of hobbykings stuff including extension cables etc ( tho i got a bit confused ) an have made up a cart of things i 'think' ill need to make a 10s1p pack (image below) have i missed anything or added something i dont need etc

thanks again for invaluable knowledge your providing me

 

[phillmoorewot]

You will need a power supply for that 400 X2 charger I linked to.
I was using a 13.5 A - 13.5V powersupply from my C-D Welder to power it, but ordered a 580 watt, 19V charger for it that is quieter and will charge more and faster, but still won't give peak output.. One of those slightly modded computer server power supplies would allow you to get full capacity out of both channels.

ive just added a small list of bits including this power supply http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__56458__Turnigy_1080W_220_240V_Power_Supply_13_8V_18V_60amp_UK_Warehouse_.html?strSearch=1080w%20power%20supply

an im wondering if ive got the right stuff before i order at the end of the month :?

 

[phillmoorewot]

Hub motor should make it a lot more trouble free. Now a strong battery is needed. Maybe a ebike penny jar. Moving on up.

Yeah I'm really enjoying having a more powerful hub motor as I have used a 250w front hub before but it didn't fill my requirements for pulling force :lol: an I'm currently looking into building my own lipo battery pack a 10s1p 10ah pack hopefully I just gotta learn a bit so I know what to get to safely build an maintain it properly....ebike penny jar? Not heard of that before but I'm new to building my own as I've only bought ready made kits off eBay an modified after etc

 

[RLT]

I almost ordered that one, but it was on backorder at the USA warehouse, and the:
http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__17755__HobbyKing_540w_220_240v_Power_Supply_13_8v_18v_30amp_.html
was better rated, and less than half the the price, so I went with it. Figured my batteries would last longer if I didn't charge them so fast anyway.

But that one will definitely let you get full capacity out of the charger.

 

[melodious]

Looks like you'll need torque arms, according to your bike's pic.

 

[Ykick]

10ga is pretty fat. OK if sticking to 4mm Bullets but can be problematic for APP's and some other applications. I never use more than 12ga for my 30-35A bikes. For soldering bullets and any other large stuff you might wanna throw a hammerhead tip in your cart too? Heat shrink is good deal from HK and CellLog awful damn handy too.

Btw, I miss-spelled BesTech google you to their site. HCX-D167 is the PCM/BMS I'm using. Happens to be for 20S but it works with fewer cell count just fine. Very good board and circuit design. Once plugged and dressed into the pack power & sense leads it protects against cell over/under voltage, current and balances automatically.

I'm at work so 'can't help you spend any more of your money!

 

[phillmoorewot]

I almost ordered that one, but it was on backorder at the USA warehouse, and the:
http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__17755__HobbyKing_540w_220_240v_Power_Supply_13_8v_18v_30amp_.html
was better rated, and less than half the the price, so I went with it. Figured my batteries would last longer if I didn't charge them so fast anyway.

But that one will definitely let you get full capacity out of the charger.

Yeah I'd seen it was gonna come from USA an I'd rather find bits from UK if possible so I don't get stung by import charges etc
... Yeah that looks good thanks for the link an I was gonna try to settthe charge amps to the lowest an see how long it'll take as it currently takes me 5-8hours to charge my battery so anytime around that or just under is fine for me

 

[phillmoorewot]

Looks like you'll need torque arms, according to your bike's pic.

Yeah I e seen what happens if you don't use them I'm currently waiting on some 5mm thick Reinforced stainless steel sheet metal to make my own ...an until I've got that I won't be using any higher amps (no accelerating an only using the motor on flats to maintain top speed atm)

 

[phillmoorewot]

10ga is pretty fat. OK if sticking to 4mm Bullets but can be problematic for APP's and some other applications. I never use more than 12ga for my 30-35A bikes. For soldering bullets and any other large stuff you might wanna throw a hammerhead tip in your cart too? Heat shrink is good deal from HK and CellLog awful damn handy too.

Btw, I miss-spelled BesTech google you to their site. HCX-D167 is the PCM/BMS I'm using. Happens to be for 20S but it works with fewer cell count just fine. Very good board and circuit design. Once plugged and dressed into the pack power & sense leads it protects against cell over/under voltage, current and balances automatically.

I'm at work so 'can't help you spend any more of your money!

Okies I did think that 10ga was a bit thick but quickly added the connections as they were the same as the lipo packs (tho it won't be too hard to either get some 12ga wireaan connections or splice something together :lol: as indo t see me needing more than 35-40 amp unless I go power hungry 8) ....Okies a hammerhead top al be added so I can get better solder Connections an maybe a proper crimping tool as I have a proper crimping tool I've only used a pair of pliers before or spilt the wires in half an thread half thru then tie together but can be messy (I've had loose connections before using pliers) an yeah I've got a load of heatshrink so that'll help

In which case thankyou very much for all the info an don't get yourself in trouble :lol:...I was up late reading the responses an start at 6:30 on the bin collections this morning (not bad money but a cr*p job tbh) but I've managed to write this before starting work as my management are having issues with organisation an communication...tho when did they ever have those qualitys :lol:

Fair play I'll look into that pcm/bms as it sounds like exactly what I'm looking for an brilliant it's for 20s that'll help me alot