My Motoped

[MitchJi]

Hi,

Mitch, I wouldn't be going down this path if I didn't think the Motoped had the performance potential. With 125cc, and high end DH parts, I'm willing to bet it performs better than the Aprilia, off road at least. The power to weight ratio is going to be really good. Suspension travel at 8 inches, breaking will be my only concern. I am going with 8" rotors, and not skimping on quality. Should stop pretty good. Geometry is the only thing that can mess up this equation, hoping Motoped did some research in this arena. Motoped is better suited to off road, but that's what I want it for. Aprilia looks too much of a road bike for me to be excited about, would suck as a trail riding platform. Not to mention the noise and smell of a two stoke.

I apologize for the misunderstanding and lack of clarity in my post. I think for your purposes, for off road use, the motoped is clearly a much better choice than the Aprilia.

But I think for an electric conversion, for high-speed driving on the road, the Aprilia is a better choice than either the Jawa moped or the motoped. I think the high-speed handling and braking are better on the Aprilia. I also think you're much less likely to be stopped by the police, for driving it at something like 50 miles an hour. Also the fairings on the Aprilia should help increase the range at high speed.

 

[kfong]

"Getting the gas motor for the distance and cost."
Mitch I actually have the batteries already, A123 20ahr packs. Purchased for the Versus, but if I make it modular I can move them to the Motoped. It was the cheap cost of the gas motor, range and convenience that had me venture back into stink bikes. The electric conversion would be a fall or winter project, only to be used for local riding.

With gas, I can be running before fall. Electrics are great but range anxieties suck in the deep woods, with a bike that pedaling is more for regulations than function and the distances I plan are so much farther than my usual 20 mile runs.

 

[kfong]

"for high-speed driving on the road, the Aprilia is a better choice", Yes I agree. My use for the Motoped won't be for high speeds or even much road use other than side streets. I intend to drive mostly under 35mph. I'm hoping the pedals will keep me under the radar of the cops. Making it electric will get me there, I will just switch out the motor for weekend trips up north. This would meet most of my requirements. Having 2 Motopeds would be better, one electric and one gas. I'm out of garage space and have enough bikes :|

 

[kfong]

Thoughts about improving the pedaling of the Motoped.
Patterson transmission would of been cool to implement, but it won't fit on the Motoped.
HammerSchmidt was another, but it uses an Isis crank. Unfortunately the Motoped uses a square taper and the BB distance is wider than any production bike. I recall there was a cheaper version made, but don't have a name or links to it. Any other transmission cranks out there I'm not aware of? I really like to pedal when I can, even if it does nothing. My way of getting some exercise.

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

one way of making a motoped better at variable speed pedaling would be rear hub motor add rear derailleur & cogs.. but of course for offroad mid drive is preferred for weight balance & suspension performance..

also someone on motopeds fb build/ride forum machined there own custom bb & spindle interface to splined for redline bmx cranks.. so isis and other instead of square taper should also be possible..

an electric specific motoped could be narrowed down to use standard bb width sizes.. that would help fiting standard mtb parts..

or maybe a gear box transmission mounted at or near the bb such as pinion, effigear, etc..
would not be cheap going that route though..

maybe a diy gear box or trans using derailleurs in a box etc..

Thoughts about improving the pedaling of the Motoped.
Patterson transmission would of been cool to implement, but it won't fit on the Motoped.
HammerSchmidt was another, but it uses an Isis crank. Unfortunately the Motoped uses a square taper and the BB distance is wider than any production bike. I recall there was a cheaper version made, but don't have a name or links to it. Any other transmission cranks out there I'm not aware of? I really like to pedal when I can, even if it does nothing. My way of getting some exercise.

 

[kfong]

efMX, I hadn't thought of that, do you have the link to the machined bottom bracket. So I have an idea what's involved, I have a CNC lathe and mill, and this seems like a good approach. It would require a hardened shaft the way I ride and would allow me to use the HammerSchmidt giving me a 1.6 gear increase. Mid drive is my preferred choice these days. A gearbox would be nice, but too complex. I believe there was a cheaper version of the HammerSchmidt sold at one time. I would be after that part if I can change out the BB. Motoped should really offer an Isis BB, it would allow for more customization.

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

no link but you could always go over there and ask.. post up your build!
if people start clamoring for it then maybe motoped will start to offer different bb options??
i think for the custom bb they removed the crank axle spindle or ends..
(havent taken mine apart but i think its solid)
then replaced it with a custom made axle spindle with splined ends for bmx cranks..
but since isis is an mtb standard that is larger diameter than square or splined..
to go isis you would need bearings as well that fit the larger diameter shaft..
or just set the motoped bb assembly aside and make something that fits your needs..

efMX, I hadn't thought of that, do you have the link to the machined bottom bracket. So I have an idea what's involved, I have a CNC lathe and mill, and this seems like a good approach. It would require a hardened shaft the way I ride and would allow me to use the HammerSchmidt giving me a 1.6 gear increase. Mid drive is my preferred choice these days. A gearbox would be nice, but too complex. I believe there was a cheaper version of the HammerSchmidt sold at one time. I would be after that part if I can change out the BB. Motoped should really offer an Isis BB, it would allow for more customization.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

Any other transmission cranks out there I'm not aware of?

Sounds like this won't work either but here's another option:
http://greyborgusa.com/ats-schlumpf-speed-drive/

The Schlumpf speed drive manufactured under license from Schlumpf by ATS is available for purchase now. It adds a planetary gear set to your bottom bracket which will multiply your chain ring by 1:1.65.

ATS Schlumpf Speed Drive
The Schlumpf speed drive manufactured under license from Schlumpf by ATS is available for purchase now. It adds a planetary gear set to your bottom bracket which will multiply your chain ring by 1:1.65. For example, I run a 60 tooth chain ring and with the Schlumpf speed drive engaged my 60 tooth chain ring effectively becomes a 99 tooth chain ring all with the click of a toe! This is the perfect solution for people who want to be able to pedal at over 30mph or are running small diameter rear tires.

1:1.65 Schlumpf Speed Drive by ATS

Pricing:

$345 + Shipping

Please note that a milling tool is required for proper installation. I am able to loan the tool to you for a $200 deposit which will be refunded upon the milling tools return to me.

Might be interested in these forks too:
http://greyborgusa.com/dnm-dual-disc-brake-fork/

This is the recommended fork which is used on the Greyborg Warp series of frames. They are also available for purchase separately. They have been custom made by DNM for Greyborg to accept dual front calipers and are supplied with a high quality dual disc 36 hole front hub.

 

[kfong]

Hey, that was the transmission I was thinking of. Damn, the axel is part of the cranks. Won't work since it's too short. This leaves me with the expensive HammerSchmidt. At around $700, this puts me off the idea and I still have to put time into making the spindle and now add the complexities of bearings to the mix. Oh, well had to explore it.

Dual front disks would be ideal, but the front shocks that came with the kit are too nice to dismiss. I wonder if one can use moped brake on bikes and can they compete with top of the line mountain bike brakes?

Suggested brakes from Motoped.
Hayes Stroker Ace v9 - Hope Tech Evo M4 - Shimano ZEE M640 - Avid Code

I plan to go with the Hayes. Anyone have experience in brakes to give thoughts on.

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

Hayes Stroker Ace is what comes on the stock motoped rollers..
i think its one of the few 9" diameter rotor mtb brakes on market..
im likely getting the motoped build kit next after my current order is complete
so i will test them, etc..

also, forgot to mention another possible pedal transmission option..
maybe use an IGH internal geared hub (non motor) such nuvinci, etc but mounted at/near the bb..
then fed into the jackshaft..

Hey, that was the transmission I was thinking of. Damn, the axel is part of the cranks. Won't work since it's too short. This leaves me with the expensive HammerSchmidt. At around $700, this puts me off the idea and I still have to put time into making the spindle and now add the complexities of bearings to the mix. Oh, well had to explore it.

Dual front disks would be ideal, but the front shocks that came with the kit are too nice to dismiss. I wonder if one can use moped brake on bikes and can they compete with top of the line mountain bike brakes?

Suggested brakes from Motoped.
Hayes Stroker Ace v9 - Hope Tech Evo M4 - Shimano ZEE M640 - Avid Code

I plan to go with the Hayes. Anyone have experience in brakes to give thoughts on.

 

[kfong]

I actually have two Nuvinci hubs, they are about 9lbs. From what I've read, they aren't very efficient. The weight and size of it was the main loss in interest for me. Using one for a go kart would be a fun project since it's electrically shifted. They were $150, so I figured it would be a cool transmission to have for one of my future projects. One of them is mounted on a bike wheel, I was planning to use it along with one of my other mid-drive setups to see if it would be useful. Came to the conclusion it would be great for a beach cruiser type setup, but just not the type of riding I'm into at moment. A recumbent would be another fun project to put it in, no room for a bike like that unfortunately :|

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

also, forgot to mention another possible pedal transmission option..
maybe use an IGH internal geared hub (non motor) such nuvinci, etc but mounted near the bb..

He only needs one overdrive gear? Because if he can mount an IGH near the BB, why can't he do the same thing with the crank transmission options we were discussing earlier?

 

[kfong]

Mitch, the issue with that option is the size of the chain. Motoped kept the high power section with a more capable chain. The pedal portion is isolated and normal bike chain used. Trying to mix weaker bike components would be a mistake, or maybe you are referring to the other crank transmissions I've dismissed. Those won't work due to the integrated spindle assembly.

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

in case you or anyone still wanted to consider conversion to isis this would be a way..:
get a 3 piece isis bb: right side cup, left side cup, isis spindle..
preferably with removable/ replaceable cartridge bearings..
remove the isis spindle and take it to a machinist
ask if an isis spindle can be made in the desired length to fit your application
and at high strength, tight fit, etc..
get an aluminum tube/ pipe that the isis bb cups can be threaded or press fit into..
this will replace the motoped bb sleeve cylinder..
install the made isis long spindle into the cylinder & isis cups/bearings..
if the new bb cylinder is not the same diameter of the motoped bb cylinder
make custom beefed up side plates that bb & swingarm attach to mainframe if needed..
install whatever isis cranks are desired that dont use a fixed crank arm (shimano, etc)

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

yes i remember reading as well that nuvinci is heavy and inefficient..
but maybe shimano, sram, rohloff, etc IGH would be better suited than nuvinci for a mid pedal trans??

I actually have two Nuvinci hubs, they are about 9lbs. From what I've read, they aren't very efficient. The weight and size of it was the main loss in interest for me. Using one for a go kart would be a fun project since it's electrically shifted. They were $150, so I figured it would be a cool transmission to have for one of my future projects. One of them is mounted on a bike wheel, I was planning to use it along with one of my other mid-drive setups to see if it would be useful. Came to the conclusion it would be great for a beach cruiser type setup, but just not the type of riding I'm into at moment. A recumbent would be another fun project to put it in, no room for a bike like that unfortunately :|

 

[kfong]

Same issue I stated to Mitch, mixing weaker bike components with the current beefed up drive train would be a bad route to take. Keeping the pedal section separate would be the approach I would use. Getting an Isis spindle, cutting it in half and then re weld it to a longer piece isn't too bad of an idea. Maybe I can thread it instead of welding? Then it comes down to if I want to spend $700 on the HammerSchmidt. Hard to justify since it will be the most expensive part on the Motoped. If I find it used or if the bike gets used more than my others. I will definitely concider it. Anyone have one for half that price they want to sell?

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

im was not suggesting use an IGH in the rear hub..
but possibly located at/ near the cranks for pedal transmission only..
yes the motor and pedal transmission need to be separate or combined at the jackshaft
with a high power motor, low power pedal input..

Same issue I stated to Mitch, mixing weaker bike components with the current beefed up drive train would be a bad route to take. Keeping the pedal section separate would be the approach I would use. Getting an Isis spindle, cutting it in half and then re weld it to a longer piece isn't too bad of an idea. Maybe I can thread it instead of welding? Then it comes down to if I want to spend $700 on the HammerSchmidt. Hard to justify since it will be the most expensive part on the Motoped. If I find it used or if the bike gets used more than my others. I will definitely concider it. Anyone have one for half that price they want to sell?

 

[kfong]

Unfortunately there is little room. The current design also limits you to 35-36 crank gear and 14 freewheel. Anything bigger gets in the way of the kick starter. I was actually looking for an electric starter when searching for 125cc. Seems like 100cc only had them. Learned that Mi moped laws allow up to 100cc. Wish I found that out before I picked up the motor. The starter might of given me a better gear choice and registration would of been easier, since it looks like I need a moped sticker to ride it around.

Just finished putting in the headset, since I only had a makeshift headset tool. Worked fine for normal bikes, but totally failed on this larger headset. Ended up hammering it on with a rubber mallet, checking so often with calipers to be sure it was seating correctly. I should of spent the time making a proper tool. Worked out in the end, but did have a bad start on one, causing some anodizing to scrape off the headset.

 

[Hillhater]

. I was actually looking for an electric starter when searching for 125cc. Seems like 100cc only had them. Learned that Mi moped laws allow up to 100cc. Wish I found that out before I picked up the motor. .

Many of the 110-125 cc motors of that type have Estarters fitted.
The starter motors are often on Ebay as a retrofit item also.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/STARTER-MOTOR-12volt-50-70-90-110cc-125cc-Chinese-ATVs-Quad-Dirt-Pit-bike-Buggy-/151087791741?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item232d88be7d

OR.. you could ditch the kick starter and just use the pedals to "bump" start the ICE...the way that original Mopeds did in the early days ! :wink:

 

[kfong]

I took a look at the motor for an access plate, unfortunately this version was never meant to have an electric starter. Bummer, since one of the reasons the crank gears are limited is the kick starter.

Bump start, that's interesting. Not sure if it's possible since the rear hub has a freewheel.

One interesting possibility, use a Nuvinci hub instead of the Motoped hub for the electric conversion. It might not help with the pedal situation, but would keep the electric motor at an optimal speed. When riding without power, you can at least pedal at a comfortable cadence, that part has me interested. Pedaling out of the woods without power on one gear isn't ideal.

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

pedal starting / roll starting etc..
it works and its easy just get the bike rolling
then pop it into second gear and hit the throttle..
should start right up..
just make sure the road etc in front of you is clear!..

(also, the rear hub is fixed gear, not freewheel..
there is no freewheel on the motor side because it would break..)

had a couple more ideas on pedal transmission..

what about having a mutispeed freewheel where the bmx freewheel is located
(machine a new freewheel or freehub attachment to replace the motoped bmx fw mount)
with a rear derailleur in place of the pedal chain roller..
it would be like a bicycle transmission but vertical instead of horizontal..
the kickstart lever could be removed, modified, or ditched w an electric specific build..

a mutispeed freewheel or idler could be used standalone
or in combined with a front crank overdrive such as schlump, etc..
or with a double/ triple crank w front derailleur..

w the kickstart lever out of the way
there could be room at the cranks/ freewheel for a compact multipeed drive train..

just some ideas not necessarily recommendations..

I took a look at the motor for an access plate, unfortunately this version was never meant to have an electric starter. Bummer, since one of the reasons the crank gears are limited is the kick starter.

Bump start, that's interesting. Not sure if it's possible since the rear hub has a freewheel.

One interesting possibility, use a Nuvinci hub instead of the Motoped hub for the electric conversion. It might not help with the pedal situation, but would keep the electric motor at an optimal speed. When riding without power, you can at least pedal at a comfortable cadence, that part has me interested. Pedaling out of the woods without power on one gear isn't ideal.

 

[kfong]

Good to know the rear hub is direct. Just assumed it was similiar to a bike. Seems like I can do away with the kick starter if bump starting is reliable and doesn't damage the crank arm. Thud, made a small dog clutch gear assembly, but I think it would stick out too much. Need to get him looking into this. I will PM him to see if he has ideas.

 

[Thud]

Hi Kin,
thought i would answer the pm here.

After reading the thread again to see if I missed anything (I am following closely BTW) I have to ask if your motor has an auto clutch.....if so pedal/bump starting may not be so easy to implement.

Pedal clearance from starter & shifter:
I see a generic kick start lever. I wouldn't hesitate to hit it with a tourch & pretzle the thing out of harms way. You can get it to wrap closer to the engine & still function....& they are cheap to replace if you get a little agressive.
The shifter length/position can be modified & tucked in to clear pedals...after 1 riding sesion you will get used to its location & function.

as for adding gear ratos & other extra-engineering to the human driveline...I would recomend a straight up build up & test ride before investing too much brain power or any build time to anything over bare minimum functionality.
(think death bike!)

On its best day...this unit under pedal is going to in the same class as a fully laden, fat tired cargo bike, .....I wouldn't expect it to be =2 or > a Giant DH comp under pedal. (the giant may be fine bombing down a mountain with a ski lift to get you back up...but as a pedal bike, its a total turd)

what is the Q factor for the record?

my mongoose beast is 10.5" with 100mm BB
my CR250 is 11" & I never pedal it.

Given the fuel economy & reliability of those little 4-strokes...I doubt you will use the pedals much on this once its running.
Thats how I see it anyway.
Hope there was a little help in there.
T

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

I think he got a semi-auto 125cc 4up trans..
so not fully auto which may not roll start??
the manual trans would be the easiest to roll start by popping the clutch..
I think it works w semi-auto as well..
get rolling by hill or pedal power, then shift into gear & go..
I agree w the kiss method of get it going first then improve as you go/ need..

Hi Kin,
thought i would answer the pm here.

After reading the thread again to see if I missed anything (I am following closely BTW) I have to ask if your motor has an auto clutch.....if so pedal/bump starting may not be so easy to implement.

Pedal clearance from starter & shifter:
I see a generic kick start lever. I wouldn't hesitate to hit it with a tourch & pretzle the thing out of harms way. You can get it to wrap closer to the engine & still function....& they are cheap to replace if you get a little agressive.
The shifter length/position can be modified & tucked in to clear pedals...after 1 riding sesion you will get used to its location & function.

as for adding gear ratos & other extra-engineering to the human driveline...I would recomend a straight up build up & test ride before investing too much brain power or any build time to anything over bare minimum functionality.
(think death bike!)

On its best day...this unit under pedal is going to in the same class as a fully laden, fat tired cargo bike, .....I wouldn't expect it to be =2 or > a Giant DH comp under pedal. (the giant may be fine bombing down a mountain with a ski lift to get you back up...but as a pedal bike, its a total turd)

what is the Q factor for the record?

my mongoose beast is 10.5" with 100mm BB
my CR250 is 11" & I never pedal it.

Given the fuel economy & reliability of those little 4-strokes...I doubt you will use the pedals much on this once its running.
Thats how I see it anyway.
Hope there was a little help in there.
T

 

[kfong]

Thanks Todd, it's always good to get another veiwpont. You made me remember how much I hated pedaling the Versus. I rode that bike around the block and have not touched it since, and don't plan to until it gets motorized. The Motoped has to be even worse, if I'm stuck pedaling it out of the woods, so be it. Adding more weight or complications is starting to make little sense. I will focus on getting it reliable, and stop thinking it can be a bicycle. My other Ebikes fill that purpose.

You lost me on this "what is the Q factor for the record?" But I'm betting it's the pedal distance. I measured 11" from one end of the square taper to the other end. Pedals should add a bit more.

Yes, semi-auto clutch