Need advice on battery 12s vs S.P.A.C.E Cell

[jasonyng]

I am new to the e-skate world and I am having some trouble wrapping my head around battery setups and what would work best for me.

I am a big guy, 270lbs, and want to run the CarvON V2 Dual Hub motors with 97mm wheels and dual VESCs.

What I am torn on is the battery setup. I am having trouble figuring out all the 6s, 10s, 12s wiring and battery terminology. Because of this the S.P.A.C.E Cell is very appealing to me as its basically plug and play. Also price is not a concern just want the best setup.

Having said that I am not sure its going to get me where I want to be. I would like to see 30+mph and 10+ miles of range out of my board and to achieve this I wonder if I am going to need to go 12s?

I guess is short:

Option 1-
S.P.A.C.E Cell and done

Option 2-
I was looking at running 4 of these http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__24310__Turnigy_nano_tech_A_SPEC_4500mah_3S_65_130C_Lipo_Boat_Pack_Mono1_.html but would need help on what else is required as far as wiring, charger, etc?

Does anyone have any input on what would be the best setup and if its option 2 a parts list for everything I would need to get that up and running?

Thanks for any help.

Jason

 

[chuttney1]

This to me boils down to, Do you need a battery management system? Would you rather plug in the charge cord and let the system charge batteries on its own without you being in the same room, but must do so with lipo batteries?

A side note, the S.P.A.C.E battery is 10S3P. Go with higher voltages.

 

[cmatson]

I was looking at running 4 of these http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__24310__Turnigy_nano_tech_A_SPEC_4500mah_3S_65_130C_Lipo_Boat_Pack_Mono1_.html but would need help on what else is required as far as wiring, charger, etc?

Does anyone have any input on what would be the best setup and if its option 2 a parts list for everything I would need to get that up and running?

Personally, I say space cell for the following reason's (and experience, since I own two)
-lasts 3 times more charge cycles than normal lipos
has "percent battery" indicator built right in
built in charger, and simple on/off switch
A+ customer support from Enertion.

why not to go with lipos:
Charging requires you to charge all 4 one at a time individually, and you have to buy a special balance charger. Also, if anything goes wrong with a lipo (incorrect charging, too fast of a discharge, etc) they will puff, catch fire, and explode. That is why the space cell, and boards like the boosted board all use safer and higher quality 18650 cells.

 

[sl33py]

Hey fellow big guy. I'm 265-270.

Your weight isn't an issue. The speed you want isn't an issue (i gear for 25mph, have hit 30mph once w/ a tailwind) - that was on dual 50mm on 8s. It's really more about gearing. I think your biggest challenge might be going hubless. With my weight i can just change the gearing to suit my needs.

I've not even run 12s yet and have no issue even on some single motor setups 6/8s getting 25mph.

If money isnt an issue i agree that Enertion's SPACE cell is quality kit with exceptional customer service.

Not knocking any of the folks who have hub motors but i'd suggest seeing what pediglide and others who know hub motors say for our weight? I don't claim to know, but know they will steer you right.

Welcome to ES and GL!

 

[LEVer]

I think you would need more than the 60 amps max of the space cell for my dual hub motors. The weight and 97mm wheels will be amps-guzzler. I regularly hit 140 plus amps on my spirited rides. Although that's on 6s and space cell is 10s, which should lower the required amps, I'm only 175 lb. I think the best one to answer this would be onloop.

.... and boards like the boosted board all use safer and higher quality 18650 cells.

Boosted boards does not use 18650 cells nor do they use the lithium-ion kind that space cells use.

 

[maxchilton]

why not to go with lipos:
Charging requires you to charge all 4 one at a time individually,

not true, you can charge lipos at the same time in parallel.

and you have to buy a special balance charger.

not true, even basic $15 lipo chargers have balancing features, most charge directly from the balance plug!

Also, if anything goes wrong with a lipo (incorrect charging, too fast of a discharge, etc) they will puff, catch fire, and explode. That is why the space cell,

lithium ion cells can also catch fire if mistreated.

and boards like the boosted board all use safer and higher quality 18650 cells.

not true, boosted boards use lipos.

 

[LEVer]

Umm...Boosted boards use A123 26650 Lithium Ion Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries like this: http://www.batteryspace.com/A123-System-Nanophosphate-LiFePO4-26650-Rechargeable-Cell-3.2V-2500-mAh.aspx

http://boostedboards.com/technical-progress-part-iii-lithium-battery/

 

[cmatson]

not true, even basic $15 lipo chargers have balancing features, most charge directly from the balance plug!

Yes, that is true but it will take about 6-8 hours for ONE battery to charge with a 15$ charger... as apposed to about 1.5 hours with the space cell. You really need a quality charger to charge all your batteries in parallel and still have it not take all day.

lithium ion cells can also catch fire if mistreated.

Yes, but the Space cell comes with a built in BMS to monitor the cells voltages. Also, 18650 cells are less prone to blowing up than lipos- hence why they are used in things like the tesla model S... Lipos can pack more juice for a given weight, but they just aren't as safe, and have 3x shorter lifespans.

not true, boosted boards use lipos.

they use A123 cells- very similar to 18650 in size and performance, just a slightly different chemistry. definitely not lipos...

 

[sl33py]

not true, even basic $15 lipo chargers have balancing features, most charge directly from the balance plug!

Yes, that is true but it will take about 6-8 hours for ONE battery to charge with a 15$ charger... as apposed to about 1.5 hours with the space cell. You really need a quality charger to charge all your batteries in parallel and still have it not take all day.

lithium ion cells can also catch fire if mistreated.

Yes, but the Space cell comes with a built in BMS to monitor the cells voltages. Also, 18650 cells are less prone to blowing up than lipos- hence why they are used in things like the tesla model S... Lipos can pack more juice for a given weight, but they just aren't as safe, and have 3x shorter lifespans.

not true, boosted boards use lipos.

they use A123 cells- very similar to 18650 in size and performance, just a slightly different chemistry. definitely not lipos...

Apples and Oranges cmatson.

If we are talking speed and flexibility - i'll take an "special" chargers any day over BMS. I have total control of charge rate according to battery specs (some do 8 or 10+C now!). I can also choose to charge at .5c for battery life, or set "full" voltage from 4.20 to 4.05v for almost triple the battery life...

One plug *is* nice, but i already have a good iCharger. Upgraded my 500w AC-DC power supply to 1500w (dual 750 Dell server PS's) that provides 12/24 60A ea.

As for charging one at a time vs multiple in parallel - get a good parallel board. I like the Paraboards from BuddyRC. Quality fused 40A capable.

FIRE! ... OK, yes LiPo can catch fire. But some common sense and modern chemistries of batteries do not make these things out to be bombs. If your pack is damaged - do not charge it. If it is puffed - do not charge it. If it gets crazy hot - do not charge it. Don't leave unattended. If you have a temp sensor - use it (they get ridiculously hot before they become a problem). I remember watching a video recently of someone shooting Lipos with a pellet gun to try to get them to explode - worst was a small flame and a lot of them puffed and smoked. Not cataclysmic.

A good lipo bag, or grab some inexpensive pryex from your local value village/goodwill (i got 2 for $2 ea!) to place your batteries in while charging is still a good idea.

All of that said - if you want simplicity - BMS or a SPACE cell which has BMS is genius and foolproof. I like the control of a regular balance charger and don't mind plugging in a few extra cables. Those small balance chargers that use just the balance connectors are nice for the office to top up during the day as well!

my .02 on lipos and chargers.

What's the consensus on hubless vs belt/gear setup for a big guy like us?

 

[cmatson]

Apples and Oranges cmatson.

If we are talking speed and flexibility - i'll take an "special" chargers any day over BMS. I have total control of charge rate according to battery specs (some do 8 or 10+C now!). I can also choose to charge at .5c for battery life, or set "full" voltage from 4.20 to 4.05v for almost triple the battery life...

One plug *is* nice, but i already have a good iCharger. Upgraded my 500w AC-DC power supply to 1500w (dual 750 Dell server PS's) that provides 12/24 60A ea.

As for charging one at a time vs multiple in parallel - get a good parallel board. I like the Paraboards from BuddyRC. Quality fused 40A capable.

FIRE! ... OK, yes LiPo can catch fire. But some common sense and modern chemistries of batteries do not make these things out to be bombs. If your pack is damaged - do not charge it. If it is puffed - do not charge it. If it gets crazy hot - do not charge it. Don't leave unattended. If you have a temp sensor - use it (they get ridiculously hot before they become a problem). I remember watching a video recently of someone shooting Lipos with a pellet gun to try to get them to explode - worst was a small flame and a lot of them puffed and smoked. Not cataclysmic.

A good lipo bag, or grab some inexpensive pryex from your local value village/goodwill (i got 2 for $2 ea!) to place your batteries in while charging is still a good idea.

All of that said - if you want simplicity - BMS or a SPACE cell which has BMS is genius and foolproof. I like the control of a regular balance charger and don't mind plugging in a few extra cables. Those small balance chargers that use just the balance connectors are nice for the office to top up during the day as well!

my .02 on lipos and chargers.

What's the consensus on hubless vs belt/gear setup for a big guy like us?

I hear you ,and completely get where you are coming from- Lipos can also give you more options if you have a deck with alot of flex, because they can be spaced out as apposed to just a long brick.

I was just looking at the situation from a "first build" point of view, and the space cell is definitely the easier solution.

I realize I did come off very "pro space cell" and basically just bashed lipos- didn't really intend to do that, and just wanted to back up why I felt the space cell would be simpler.

 

[torqueboards]

Both are great options.

For the people who don't mind RC lipos with no BMS and/or plan to get into RC - lipos are a great option.

For people who want a simpler build SPACE cell is a great option.

The best part for SPACE cell is the high voltage and lower height of the pack.

 

[maxchilton]

Umm...Boosted boards use A123 26650 Lithium Ion Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries like this: http://www.batteryspace.com/A123-System-Nanophosphate-LiFePO4-26650-Rechargeable-Cell-3.2V-2500-mAh.aspx

http://boostedboards.com/technical-progress-part-iii-lithium-battery/

i stand corrected on that point. I confused Starry boards (which uses lipos) with Boosted.

 

[maxchilton]

Yes, that is true but it will take about 6-8 hours for ONE battery to charge with a 15$ charger... as apposed to about 1.5 hours with the space cell. You really need a quality charger to charge all your batteries in parallel and still have it not take all day.

Saying is takes "X "amount is hours to charge a battery is ridiculous. The time is takes to charge is pack is a function of capacity/charge current. I could charge a 10ah pack in 1 hour or 100 hours, it just depends.

Yes, but the Space cell comes with a built in BMS to monitor the cells voltages. Also, 18650 cells are less prone to blowing up than lipos- hence why they are used in things like the tesla model S... Lipos can pack more juice for a given weight, but they just aren't as safe, and have 3x shorter lifespans.

proof it lasts 3x longer? I could destroy any brand name lithium ion cell in 100 cycles or make hobbyking lipos last 800+ cycles. Again, it depends on how you treat them, ie. maximum charge voltage, depth of discharge, storage temperature, discharge rates, etc.

 

[sl33py]

cmatson has had absolutely exceptional service from Enertion with his early SPACE cell issue. Got a brand new SPACE cell and could keep his old one. I think it's understandable he is biased and it's in large part why i recommend them highly due to that level of customer service!

I'll stick with Lipo myself, but can't say the SPACE cell isn't a nice option for simplicity!

 

[jasonyng]

I think I can figure out the Lipo setup with everyones help here.

So I guess it comes down to if the SPACE Cell will get me where I want to be with only being able to supply 60 amps max and if it will get me the range I need with the hub motors?

Anyone with hands on experience that can chime in?

Thanks!
Jason

 

[sl33py]

I think I can figure out the Lipo setup with everyones help here.

So I guess it comes down to if the SPACE Cell will get me where I want to be with only being able to supply 60 amps max and if it will get me the range I need with the hub motors?

Anyone with hands on experience that can chime in?

Thanks!
Jason

I'd really like to see what Pediglide and others who build or use hubmotors say regarding weight capacity?

I would conservatively steer you towards a geared/belt setup as i positively know it will do everything you need. I had my dual 5065 200kv setup on 8s repeatedly get my heavy butt to 25mph, and once with a slight tailwind 30mph. No muss, no fuss. I ran a watt meter inline from my batteries to motors and highest Amp draw shown was around 65A on 8s. This might be a limit of the VESC and i don't have that board any longer to test, but i will have Peak Amp info on my new dual R-Spec 6354 190kv setup once complete (still a ways out).

As for the SPACE cell and 60A limit - is that a hard limit or can you momentarily (and how long) peak past 60A without issue? I know onloop is on vacation so you might have to wait for that answer.

HTH -GL!

 

[jasonyng]

This guy is running the hub motors at 6s, 260lbs and seems to be getting good results.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=72727

Maybe djodom1134 will chime in here with his input.

Jason

 

[LEVer]

djodom is using lipos.

Both hub motors and belt-driven system can produce a lot of torque. With hub motors, it relies on amps while belt-drives rely on (taller) gearing. Amps can be varied while gear ratios are fixed (until somebody puts a CVT on the motor mount). While the non-fixed ratio of hub motors can be an advantage, it would need a big battery pack to increase capacity (related to how much amps the pack can produce) and/or have higher voltage (so that it will not produce too much heat associated with lots of amps). By then, the board will end up heavier. So while both can work, belt-drives can move a rider with smaller and lighter components (small motors, small battery pack, etc.). That is why I would not advice the OP to use a single hub motor as it is not sufficient, while he can perfectly use and enjoy a single 63mm motor with appropriate gearing and have a lighter board. This debate mirrors the E-bikes direct drive vs geared hub motors.

BUT....we are only talking about acceleration here. What about coasting and braking? Unlike in E-bikes which has it's own braking system and uses freewheel clutch on geared hub motors, in E-boards, we use the motor for braking and have no freewheel. Here's what I wrote at Vanarian's thread:

...
The thing with high kv motors is that they like to spin fast or else they will heat up when you try to run them at low speed with load. So then people gear them down with like a 4:1 reduction so that they don't go flying off to the sunset. Well, that's good for acceleration, but what about coasting and braking? With that tall gearing, when you let go of the throttle the bigger pulley wheel pulley will spin 1 revolution while the motor's pulley will spin 4. Those magnets will really bite and slow you down, that's why you have that forward-lurch when you let go of the acceleration. And when you're going downhill and brake all of a sudden, the big wheel pulley carrying your momentum will still try to spin the motor's pulley even though it wants to stop. If the motor pulley doesn't give in, your belts may and they will skip and hop over the teeth. Hub motors don't have these things.

So imagine the OP going downhill at high speed and suddenly wants to stop. The (high) gear-ratio of a belt-drive can then be a disadvantage. So my solution is, and of course I'm partial to my hub motors, , is to use high-C rated battery packs that has good power-to-weight ratio. So far, that seems to be lipos territory. Lipos are far from perfect, but they have gotten so much better the last few years. I would love to see someone develop a transmission system for E-boards, much like the ones on E-bikes. EDIT: And have separate braking mechanism.

I'm not saying not to use Space cell for hub motors. In fact, elkick is using them with my hub motors without any problem. I am just being cautious on the stated max amps of the pack, considering the amps I'm seeing in my watt meter. That's why I think it's best to ask enertion about it.

Also, I'm pretty sure onloop and torqueboard are making their own hub motors as we speak. :wink:

 

[torqueboards]

I'm not making my own hub motors... Thinking about selling them though but haven't done much testing..

I'm waiting on my pedi motors Those are the best hub motors..