New 100v controller is slower than old 75v - what's wrong?

[LarryHoova]

continued from my other thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=56946&p=850125#p850125

My bike was 70v stock SLA.

I added 2x 12v 20ah SLA's

Was now 84v. My old controller seemed to be able to handle the higher voltage for about 45 days before it blew. I also think it had some kind of speed limiter built into it.

At 60v I went 32km/hr, at 72v I went 39km/hr, at 84v I went 46km/hr

I just installed the new controller: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electric-Bicycle-Brushless-Speed-Motor-Controller-72V-1500W-For-E-bike-Scooter-/360643164862?

I only connected the bare minimum - power, phase, halls, throttle

I did not connect the 3 speed switch.

Everything works, but the speedometer on my HUD does not work.

A road test yesterday with a GPS speedometer app on my phone said I only hit 40km on 84v

I also modded the shunt on this new controller and yet it still has less torque than the old one.

Everyone said I should be able to go faster than 45km/hr with the new controller since the old controller limited me to that speed.

Any idea what is wrong and how to fix it?

 

[wesnewell]

2 possibilities. First try shorting the blue wire to black on the speed cable. If that does nothing, it's possible you need to change the phase and hall combos. I assume you just plugged them in color for color and that may not be the proper combination. When I replaced my stock controller, I had to find the proper combo and it wasn't the same as the original controller.

 

[cal3thousand]

Is this the fried controller from this thread?

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=56946

If so, you left out a very important detail in this thread.

 

[LarryHoova]

Is this the fried controller from this thread?

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=56946

If so, you left out a very important detail in this thread.

Yes it is. Maybe it is slower because somehow it is fried. I don't think so though.

The wires did NOT match up. I had to try a variety of combos with the Green, Blue, Yellow -- some combos just made a grinding action, one combo went back smoothly, I found a combo that was forward and smooth and from what I read, I thought there is only ONE combo that is forward and smooth. Is that not the case? Could there be some other combination that would run faster?

 

[cal3thousand]

Could be that part of the 5V circuitry was lightly fried, thus not taking a full throttle signal or something like that. But without further details, it would be difficult to pinpoint that as the issue.

Do you have a multimeter?

 

[wesnewell]

Normally, if you have to switch the phase wires, you also have to switch the hall wires accordingly. Can I assume you did that too? And yes, there are more than one combo that will work, but only 1 that is right. For mine, I had to swap the green and yellow phase and hall wires. I'd first try the putting the speed cable to use by connecting the blue to black. That's supposed to be high speed. This controller doesn't list a speedo cable. It may support it and just not have a wire out of the controller for it, but I don't know. Almost all these controllers are made in China and I can't read or speak Chinese. So us single language people are left to experimentation, which in some case may be fatal for the controller, so be careful. You might have contacting the seller, but I wouldn't count on it.

 

[LarryHoova]

Normally, if you have to switch the phase wires, you also have to switch the hall wires accordingly. Can I assume you did that too? And yes, there are more than one combo that will work, but only 1 that is right. For mine, I had to swap the green and yellow phase and hall wires. I'd first try the putting the speed cable to use by connecting the blue to black. That's supposed to be high speed. This controller doesn't list a speedo cable. It may support it and just not have a wire out of the controller for it, but I don't know. Almost all these controllers are made in China and I can't read or speak Chinese. So us single language people are left to experimentation, which in some case may be fatal for the controller, so be careful. You might have contacting the seller, but I wouldn't count on it.

Thanks man - I hardwired the blue and black - it doesn't seem much different and it doesn't feel right. It is smooth but there should be more power. I will try changing around the group of 5 wires (or those hall or phase?) as well sigh - I didn't want to touch them because they all fit in a wiring harness together perfectly.

 

[granolaboy]

I'd plug in the 3-speed switch and see what that does. I had a slow controller once and when i plugged it in I realized it was on the slowest setting.

 

[LarryHoova]

I'd plug in the 3-speed switch and see what that does. I had a slow controller once and when i plugged it in I realized it was on the slowest setting.

My existing 3 speed switch fell off so I hardwired the blue and black together already.

As I said in my previous post, I just hardwired the blue and black together on the new controller.

 

[wesnewell]

The 5 small wires are the hall wires. Red and black are power wires so don't cross them. Normally the hall wires should match the large phase wires, so if you cross phase wires you should cross the same hall wires. There's 3 phases and they just need to be in the proper sequence. You can use a small jewelers screwdriver to remove the wires and pins from the housing of the hall connector. IOW's if you swap the yellow and green phase wires, you should also swap the yellow and green hall wires.

 

[LarryHoova]

The 5 small wires are the hall wires. Red and black are power wires so don't cross them. Normally the hall wires should match the large phase wires, so if you cross phase wires you should cross the same hall wires. There's 3 phases and they just need to be in the proper sequence. You can use a small jewelers screwdriver to remove the wires and pins from the housing of the hall connector. IOW's if you swap the yellow and green phase wires, you should also swap the yellow and green hall wires.

thanks man...

I played around with different combinations of hall wires and the only combo I could get was to make the wheel go in reverse, so i then swapped around the large phase wires until it worked. Still seems to go the same speed.

Maybe there is another magical combination I have not tried yet... Is that possible? because the bike drives fine and smooth - just slower than I expected.

Also the black blue yellow cables coming out of the controller for the 3 speed switch - the fastest combination is yellow and blue and I still can't tell if it is the same speed or faster as having nothing connected.

Ugh.

UPDATE: since I did the self learn (at 72v not 84v - i doubt it matters though) I think it is running faster. Now since I did that, the black + yellow speed wires make it the fastest combo and the yellow/blue combo is the slowest O_O

I dunno what to do next. I would like to think I have the right combo now since the self-learn was successful but maybe I don't. The problem is can't exactly see the correct colors coming from the bike - it was rewired, so the phase/hall combos are all over the place.

UPDATE: I decided to try and see if the self-learning cable would work. What happened when i connected them and turned the power on, is the wheel turned forward, chugged a bit a few times then turned smoothly but it did not spin anywhere near max speed. I disconnected the self learn and then used the throttle and it works fine. Not sure if this somehow set it to the right combo or not :/ I figured I would give it a try.

Now I just need to test drive it and see.

Is there any chance that the shunt is just not big enough?

 

[amberwolf]

Did you ever test the speed of the original setup with that GPS?

Or is your only speed comparision between two different measuring instruments (one in-dash, one GPS)?


It's not uncommon for built-in speedos to read high.

 

[LarryHoova]

Did you ever test the speed of the original setup with that GPS?

Or is your only speed comparision between two different measuring instruments (one in-dash, one GPS)?


It's not uncommon for built-in speedos to read high.

No I never tested it with the GPS.

That being said, it feels slower.

I have used the self test and it looks like it re-aligned it. I have figured out the fastest speed setting. I will see tomorrow how it goes on a decent trip with fully charged batteries.

I definitely think I need to make the shunt bigger, cuz it definitely has less torque

 

[wesnewell]

AFAK, the self learn cable is just for determining 60 or 120 degree phase angle, but I'm not sure. I think your lack of power is because you don't have the right phase combo, but that's hard to tell from here also. Don't go crazy with the shunt mod or you may end up burning up the controller. I would never go over 50% of the shunt since it's probably 40A to begin with and I can't imagine the original controller being more than 40A. And that's not to mention you only have a 500W motor. Start putting 6000W to it and you can burn it up fast.

 

[LarryHoova]

AFAK, the self learn cable is just for determining 60 or 120 degree phase angle, but I'm not sure. I think your lack of power is because you don't have the right phase combo, but that's hard to tell from here also. Don't go crazy with the shunt mod or you may end up burning up the controller. I would never go over 50% of the shunt since it's probably 40A to begin with and I can't imagine the original controller being more than 40A. And that's not to mention you only have a 500W motor. Start putting 6000W to it and you can burn it up fast.

Dman bro that was not what I wanted to hear.

So let me get this straight:

If the big Blue, Yellow, Green are matched now like this:

B->Y
G->B
Y-G

Does that mean I do the exact same setup with the halls?

Does this mean that I need to find a combo with the big BGY first and then match the halls or switch everything at the same time until I find the right combo?

Would this make a total of 6 combinations?

Why do people talk about 36 combinations? That would imply that if you go G->Y on the motor wires it might not be G-Y on the halls?

 

[Ykick]

Read this thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48311&hilit

Scroll down and save the chart accountant graciously supplied. Use that when "finding" phase/hall combinations.

 

[wesnewell]

So let me get this straight:

If the big Blue, Yellow, Green are matched now like this:

B->Y
G->B
Y-G

Does that mean I do the exact same setup with the halls?

Yes.

Does this mean that I need to find a combo with the big BGY first and then match the halls or switch everything at the same time until I find the right combo?

All at the same time.

Would this make a total of 6 combinations?

That sounds right.

Why do people talk about 36 combinations? That would imply that if you go G->Y on the motor wires it might not be G-Y on the halls?

It's possible that the hall colors from the controller don't match their phase colors, but if they matched originally, that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[e-beach]

Read this thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48311&hilit Scroll down and save the chart accountant graciously supplied. Use that when "finding" phase/hall combinations.

Same info, bigger png image.

http://www.lsdzs.com/e/images/image053.png

BTW, as a sidebar, have you checked the linear hall sensor in your throttle. Is it returning full voltage? I just has a linear hall sensor in my throttle go out and the new one is not returning full voltage supplied by the controller. My bike is slower now. I will be getting more halls after the Chinese new year a find the best ones to splice back into my throttle for the highest return voltage possable.

http://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php?title=Testing_Hall_Throttle_output&redirect=no

 

[wesnewell]

Neat little chart. Changes phase sequences by use of the hall sensors only. Only change I'd make is make the changes on the controller connector rather than the motor side. Would have come in handy 3 years ago.

 

[LarryHoova]

Neat little chart. Changes phase sequences by use of the hall sensors only. Only change I'd make is make the changes on the controller connector rather than the motor side. Would have come in handy 3 years ago.

Update: With the batteries fully charged, the self test done, and the fastest speed combo hardwired the bike now seems to be fast. It takes longer than I would like it to to reach top speeds but the top speed is great and with this new controller the power seems distributed better. I haven't measured the new speed yet but it feels faster. The 3 little shunts that came with this controller are tiny. I definitely need to make the shunt bigger.

The sad thing is that my SLA's are so beaten up that my range is only 11km before the low voltage cutoff kicks in. It is set at 62v I think - which seems low for 84v setup. I still have good power to use but the bike shuts off. Is there a way to change the low voltage cutoff?

I really need to get lipo.

Approx how much am I looking at to get:

1. 84v of lipo @ 20ah
2. charger

 

[wesnewell]

Recommended LVC for sla is 10.5V for each 12V battery, so 62V is already lower than recommended using 7 batteries in series. That's 8.85V per 12V. You have a 72V controller. Its LVC of 62V is set up for a 72V sla battery pack. If you run your 84V sla pack down to LVC on it, all you will accomplish is killing the batteries quicker. Here's my recommended LVC for different battery systems.
sla 10.5V per 12v battery.
rc lipo 3.3-3.5V per cell
li-ion 3-3.3v per cell
lifepo4 2.5v per cell
nmc 3-3.3V per cell.

 

[wesnewell]

Approx how much am I looking at to get:
1. 84v of lipo @ 20ah
2. charger

1. 84V of rc lipo is 23s and will charge to 96.6V. An uneven combo of cells that will make it hard to charge that I wouldn't recommend. Either go with 20s (74V) or 24s (88.8V). Thes are easy to split and charge as either 10s or 12s with a 10s or 12s rc charger. You will only need 10ah to get the same or more range than you get now with your 20ah sla pack. Cost for 10ah can vary from $300 and up depending on what you buy. If you really want 20ah, double that.
2.The rc charger and power supply I'd recommend will cost ~$130. And since you have a closed battery case, yo may want to consider a BMS instead.

 

[LarryHoova]

Approx how much am I looking at to get:
1. 84v of lipo @ 20ah
2. charger

1. 84V of rc lipo is 23s and will charge to 96.6V. An uneven combo of cells that will make it hard to charge that I wouldn't recommend. Either go with 20s (74V) or 24s (88.8V). Thes are easy to split and charge as either 10s or 12s with a 10s or 12s rc charger. You will only need 10ah to get the same or more range than you get now with your 20ah sla pack. Cost for 10ah can vary from $300 and up depending on what you buy. If you really want 20ah, double that.
2.The rc charger and power supply I'd recommend will cost ~$130. And since you have a closed battery case, yo may want to consider a BMS instead.

Thanks man - I will go with 24s and split them to charge them with a 12s charger. Sounds like around $500 to do the conversion. Maybe I will do that in the spring but it kind of makes me want to just ditch the scooter style and go with a setup like you got.