Kepler
10 MW
coachstevo said:
I am talking with electric assist
New Bafang Crank-Drives
- Thread starter d8veh
- Start date
I am talking with electric assist
Tom L
1 kW
Kepler said:
It looks like Lectric Cycles controllers are programmed differently. This is what lcrewse had to say in an email to me (I checked with him if it was ok to post):
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The units I have are programmed completely different than anything else out there. In addition to the normal OEM software interface I also have the Firmware interface to enable advanced functions such as the throttle only mode. The throttle function on your motor is independent of the PAS so it will work in all modes including PAS "0". In addition it has an increased starting current set at three times the factory setting for less of a "spool up" effect. The throttle also provides 100 percent power in all modes. The factory units with throttles, have it matched to the PAS modes and it behaves quite differently than what your will be.
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I'll report here when I get my kit. Probably in the new year now. It's in Australia but hasn't cleared customs yet.
Lightning_boy
1 µW
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2013
- Messages
- 3
Kepler said:
Hi,
I'm new to the idea of electric assisted cycling, but these Bafang mid drives have me seriously thinking of taking the plunge. I'm puzzled by the different configurations though. Looking just at GEB's offerings on Aliexpress (as Kepler had a good experience with them) I see they have no less than 15 listings! Some simply require multiple units to be purchased, but from what I can see, they offer 7 different systems, namely:
BBS-01 24V 250W
BBS-01 36V 250W
BBS-01 36V 350W
BBS-01 36V 500W
BBS-01 48V 350W
BBS-02 48V 500W
BBS-02 48V 750W
Now I'm a bit of a minimalist, so don't want max power and range just for the sake of it. I commute a short distance to and from the city each day (10 miles total), and want to be able to hit 35-40kph (pedal assisted) on the odd decent stretch I have, and climb a few small hills a bit quicker. Fighting the winter winds, which always seem to be blowing the wrong way, will probably be the best part of having some assistance, as I can achieve an accepatble speed when they aren't blowing.
I suppose I could play it safe and go for the 750W motor, but is it necessary? I'd like to keep battery weight down too, so am hoping only 10AH is enough capacity seeing I intend to crank along as well. Could those experienced with these systems please recommend which of the above motors is likely to be sufficient? Is 10AH going to be enough if I charge daily?
Thanks in advance for helping a newb out.
Kepler
10 MW
Tom L said:
Looking forward to see how your setup goes with different programming.
This will be a handy feature and will allow you to use the throttle without PAS l presume (PAS "0") With the stock setup, the PAS is always there. Sometimes you just want to pedal without assistance and just use the throttle when you want to. The stock setup doesn't let you do this.
Not sure if this is a good thing. The standard spool up feels really good and gives you time to change gears more smoothly.
This also will be a handy feature to have.
BTW, after doing more testing, it does seem that the throttle is proportional. It just has a large dead band at the start. Once you get past the dead band, there is proportional throttle control but is is very touchy due to the reduced mechanical range. On 100% power setting and a low gear, you need to be very careful as it will easily lift the front wheel.
Kepler
10 MW
Lightning_boy said:
Hi Lightning_boy. Welcome to the forum.
My advice is get the BBS-02 48V 750W. Even this one is no powerhouse so no issue with it being overkill.
Also 750W has the larger motor so you have a bit more thermal mass and less chance having a motor failure.10ah at 48V on this drive will give you plenty of range. 40km easy.
Geebee
1 kW
I don't have one of these drives yet but do have a crank drive of near identical spec (250w Tonaro) to the 250w 36 volt Befang, on a Dutch style step thru that weighs 25ish kg, I have the speed limiter removed on this bike.
Motor only is in the high 20 k's, with light assist low to mid 30 k's, when drag racing lycra's mid to high 40 k's, this bike has the rider sitting bolt upright.
Range when I was healthy was stupidly long, 30+km of climbing up a mountain and back rewarded me with the highest of 5 LED voltage indicators flicking off momentarily, my guestimate on less steep terrain would be close to 80 km range as an assist. I rode 10k in moderately hill terrain (steepest was 15% grade) last week and used a bit over 2.5 ah with no pedal input at all for the whole ride.
Motor only is in the high 20 k's, with light assist low to mid 30 k's, when drag racing lycra's mid to high 40 k's, this bike has the rider sitting bolt upright.
Range when I was healthy was stupidly long, 30+km of climbing up a mountain and back rewarded me with the highest of 5 LED voltage indicators flicking off momentarily, my guestimate on less steep terrain would be close to 80 km range as an assist. I rode 10k in moderately hill terrain (steepest was 15% grade) last week and used a bit over 2.5 ah with no pedal input at all for the whole ride.
Kepler
10 MW
Today's ride was all about testing economy. The aim was to basically maintain a comfortable but high cadence for the duration of the ride. With the 13 tooth gear being used most of the time on, speed was between 30kph and 35kph with settings 4, 5, and 6 used to maintain this speed. Higher settings would force the cadence too high and as such were avoided. The same settings were used for hills and the bike just geared down to maintain cadence but at a slower speed. Consumption was typically between 200W and 300W.
Stats for the ride are as follows.
View attachment 3
View attachment 2
For the type of bike the drive is fitted too, I think the economy was quite reasonable however under these conditions, it certainly isn't better than what you will see with a geared hub motor.
Where this drive shines is firstly how the bike handles. Off road it just about feels like a normal mountain bike. Also it is really quiet to a point that a bell to warn people you are there is a must.
For a commuter, it works, but not sure if I would choose it over a geared hub for this duty. If the plan is for a mix of off road though and paths, IMO the drive is great choice.
Stats for the ride are as follows.
View attachment 3
View attachment 2
For the type of bike the drive is fitted too, I think the economy was quite reasonable however under these conditions, it certainly isn't better than what you will see with a geared hub motor.
Where this drive shines is firstly how the bike handles. Off road it just about feels like a normal mountain bike. Also it is really quiet to a point that a bell to warn people you are there is a must.
For a commuter, it works, but not sure if I would choose it over a geared hub for this duty. If the plan is for a mix of off road though and paths, IMO the drive is great choice.
o00scorpion00o
100 kW
Kepler said:
It all depends on what you want really, watt for watt the crank drive will still be the best climber using the gears, if you ride in very hilly terrain they are best suited for that.
The Bosch excels in it's ability to match your leg power, and it's just really smooth and great experience but it's also a very strong climber. It's gotten me up 18-20% slopes, slowly but it did it and was barely Luke warm to the touch. That same stretch I did with a magic pie II running 3kw and it was roasting at the top and it didn't pull me up much faster than the Bosch at 500-700 watts. A mac 8-10T would probably stall at the same wattage and at more than 1kw could probably over heat, this is extreme for a geared hub. But the little mac is capable under 2-3 kw of power of climbing so fast that most normal hilly terrain I encountered wasn't an issue because you were pulling peak power for a shorter time, that's the only way I can describe it. But very long hill climbs 10-15% at 2-3 kw will not be good long term for a geared hub.
Using the Bosch I would be able to get between 40-70 miles depending on hills, but the 400 watt hr pack is more than enough for a bicycle limited to 16.5 mph before your arse starts to hurt.
For me choosing the Bosch over a hub was I like to pedal and the Bosch makes you pedal and there is no assistance above 16.5 mph, I also wanted to ensure I had the power to take me up any hill with as little watts as possible and as little heat as possible and the Bosch does the job perfectly.
Only thing the Haibike has that I don't like is the 3 speed Sram dual drive hub in the rear hub, this adds unnecessary expense and resistance while peddling and an extra 2 chain rings would have been much better, but I guess Haibike didn't expect people would be peddling the bike unassisted. The Raleigh bike I tested in Germany didn't have any resistance while peddling and felt like a normal bike to pedal unassisted, so I may remove the sram and add a bigger chain ring and add the sram again when I want to climb big hills.
Kepler
10 MW
Sounds like the Bosch drive is a ripper. would love to test one of these drives and compare it to the Bafang. Obviously with the 16.5mph max speed, the drive is designed for the EU market. I agree the 400Wh is heaps for this speed and power limit. 400Whr is all I would consider on the Bafang also.
My feeling is that the Bafang would provide a very similar riding experience to Bosch equipped bike.
My feeling is that the Bafang would provide a very similar riding experience to Bosch equipped bike.
spinningmagnets
100 TW
I'm glad you are comparing this to the cell_man MAC. Since that upgraded 1,000W MAC 10T @48V kit (minus battery/charger) is $385 (standard MAC kit is $355). Enough builders have used that kit that it is a proven set-up for mild hills.
It's sounding like the BBS02 would be better on the steepest hills, because it can be downshifted to a lower gear, while keeping the motor RPMs up where they need to be, other than that, I think I would still recommend the 10T MAC for most commuters.
edit: in reference to the post below: you are right Geebee, I had forgotten about our power-restricted brothers in the EU. If you are a law-abiding citizen, 250W is...a LOT less than a 48V X 30A = 1,440 MAC
It's sounding like the BBS02 would be better on the steepest hills, because it can be downshifted to a lower gear, while keeping the motor RPMs up where they need to be, other than that, I think I would still recommend the 10T MAC for most commuters.
edit: in reference to the post below: you are right Geebee, I had forgotten about our power-restricted brothers in the EU. If you are a law-abiding citizen, 250W is...a LOT less than a 48V X 30A = 1,440 MAC
Geebee
1 kW
The big advantage for those in certain counties is that you can run a leagal 250 watt and still cope with 20% grade hills.
In my experience 250 watt hubs struggle on steep hills.
In my experience 250 watt hubs struggle on steep hills.
Rollodo
1 kW
For me personally, there are three major advantages of these drives - the use of bike's gears (to be honest, I don't even care about the speed that much), the weight distribution, and the discreet look.
John Bozi
100 kW
Kepler, I am interested in how it performs on bumps and drops. I am interested in how it will perform on tight single track, which as you know require short bursts of power.
What happens if power is on when going over a bump or jump? On my DD hub it seems to be no problem but I wonder what happens to the chain when the wheel is up and then comes down suddenly.
Nice stealth bike, can't see the motor!
What happens if power is on when going over a bump or jump? On my DD hub it seems to be no problem but I wonder what happens to the chain when the wheel is up and then comes down suddenly.
Nice stealth bike, can't see the motor!
o00scorpion00o
100 kW
Geebee said:
It's not just about the wattage, which isn't really limited to 250 watts any more, the Bosch is about 500 watts and about 700 peak. 250 watt hubs would die on some of the steep hills I've been up.
The mac 8T I think is the best balance between speed and torque, and when fed 2-3Kw it's unbelievable how much power that little hub can produce. 40 mph on 16S LiPo was a real blast. The clutch and keyway didn't think so but there is a much beefier clutch now.
o00scorpion00o
100 kW
Kepler said:Sounds like the Bosch drive is a ripper. would love to test one of these drives and compare it to the Bafang. Obviously with the 16.5mph max speed, the drive is designed for the EU market. I agree the 400Wh is heaps for this speed and power limit. 400Whr is all I would consider on the Bafang also.
My feeling is that the Bafang would provide a very similar riding experience to Bosch equipped bike.
Maybe the Bafang will produce the same riding experience when they get the torque sensor and software going properly but a few people who tested it said in it's current form that it's nowhere as good as the Bosch in the way it is so smooth in operation. Power wise there might not be so much in the difference but they have a more powerful Bosch motor now with the 2014 models I think an extra 10 Nm of torque or so.
There is a 50kph Bosch but it's got to be insured and you need a license. The non 50kph can be hacked though the speedometer doesn't read right, maybe there is a controller hack now to do it right ?
But where the Bosch can't compete against the Bafang is in the ability to mount the motor on most bike frames and of course it's a hell of a lot cheaper than a lot of new bikes with the Bosch motor.
having said that a 2012 model can be got on E-bay for 800-11500 Euro's with 300 wh battery which is still plenty. In fact the more I think about it, if you're to order a full mac kit including battery and after shipping it's not going to cost a whole lot more than a Bike fitted with a Bosch motor and don't forget that's E.U prices, shipping a whole E-bike can be expensive too though but you might be able to get a bargain.
Grey beard
100 W
As one of the older members here (70), I will be forced to wait until these units can be hacked to throttle only. I have one knee that doesn't like to pedal much, and as I'm on Medicare I won't be able to get it fixed after 1/1/14. I have one full suspension bike, a GT LTS-1, and I've picked out good routes(although longer) to town, as well as to my moms, where I don't have to worry about traffic as much. Mom turns 92 on New Year's Day, and has lived in the same home for 50 years, and it means regular visits.
Ive got 4 ICE bikes, from my 30kph Solex, to a fully built, 60+yr old Whizzer/Schwinn that can maybe hit 100kph. I find I like to cruise about 40kph and it sounds like this may be a good answer. The ICE bikes are fun, but not legal, and the people I know in the LEO community let me get by, but electrics are legal, and my friends at Police Station may not be there for long.
Anyhow, I'll wait until the software fixes are in that will allow full performance in throttle only, and then jump. At the rate of interest in these units, it won't be long.
Ive got 4 ICE bikes, from my 30kph Solex, to a fully built, 60+yr old Whizzer/Schwinn that can maybe hit 100kph. I find I like to cruise about 40kph and it sounds like this may be a good answer. The ICE bikes are fun, but not legal, and the people I know in the LEO community let me get by, but electrics are legal, and my friends at Police Station may not be there for long.
Anyhow, I'll wait until the software fixes are in that will allow full performance in throttle only, and then jump. At the rate of interest in these units, it won't be long.
Rollodo
1 kW
I thought these can take either PAS or throttle-only? Is that what you mean?Grey beard said:
Grey beard
100 W
My understanding is the present throttle is a three position switch, and I will wait until the hacks are available to rid it of the PAS and use a regular throttle.Rollodo said:
Kepler
10 MW
I retracted that it was a 3 speed switch a few posts back. Further testing has showing it to be in fact proportional in its action however not very linear in power application. It has a large dead post at the start then goes from min to full over a short range of motion. This gave the impression of 3 speeds. Off, low, and high. However if you operate the throttle carefully you can feel a proportional different at the upper end of the throttle range. My apologies for the original miss information.
mushymelon
1 kW
Kepler said:
Do you have a Zombies throttle tamer you can test on this?
Kepler said:
That exactly matches my findings after I did side-by-side tests over mixed terrain on bikes with crank and hub-motors using similar controllers and batteries.I would also choose a geared hub-motor as a commuter because it gives a more relaxed and convenient ride without any penalty in efficiency. I also agree that crank-drives are good for off-road riding.
o00scorpion00o said:
In the past, 250w hub-motors were not strong enough for steep hills, but now there's a whole range of high-torque ones. The latest Panasonic one blitzed the Bosch and Panasonic crank drives in a mountain climb test with average gradient 22% by a German bile magazine. It caused a bit of head scratching when it used less battery and was easier to pedal up the mountain than the others.
Details of the test are here in German,but the table speaks for itself. Even the new Bionx motor beat the Bosch:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.730098453682963.1073741853.200160223343458&type=1
There's also high torque "250w" motors from Dapu and Bafang that can climb very well.
Geebee
1 kW
I keep hearing this but I suspect if you took away the human assist and made them climb on their own they would stall or cook? and the maximum slope they could climb ignoring speed would have to be with the crank drive?
I only concern myself with the unassisted climbing due to illness and living in very steep terrain, I always hated letting hub motors drop into inefficient rpm's.
D8veh, is there a link to the test on the net so I can get it translated to read? The Panasonic is pretty amazing consumption wise.
I only concern myself with the unassisted climbing due to illness and living in very steep terrain, I always hated letting hub motors drop into inefficient rpm's.
D8veh, is there a link to the test on the net so I can get it translated to read? The Panasonic is pretty amazing consumption wise.
o00scorpion00o
100 kW
d8veh said:
So the panasonic hub motor bet the Bosch ? I'm impressed, and it used less power, though the test was longer with the panasonic so this might throw that off a little ?
But they are not 250 watt motors this needs to be understood, the Bosch is more like 500 and so the panasonic hub must be around the same, but how a hub can climb a 22% grade and not burn on 500 watts is beyond me ? and be as or more efficient than the chain drives ?
Was that a test with the new 2014 Bosch performance motor ?
Tom L
1 kW
My kit from Lectric Cycles arrived today. All packed extremely well and no sign of transit damage.
It all looks ridiculously straight forward - even for someone who hasn't done any major bike maintenance for 25 years.
I started stripping down my Giant Alias 2008 hardtail but got stymied by leaving my 1/2 drive ratchet at work. So I've got no way to turn the bottom bracket tool until tomorrow. Also going to have to buy a bottom bracket spanner to do up the two M33 nuts. The German install video helped confirm my suspicion that the thicker one goes on first. Other than that, the exploded view (page two of this thread) helped and the fact that it's impossible to get the plugs matched incorrectly.
I've trialled a method of mounting a couple of micro SMD reed switches so I can use my hydraulic break levers as ebrakes. More on that later.
It's looking like an ebike Christmas already
It all looks ridiculously straight forward - even for someone who hasn't done any major bike maintenance for 25 years.
I started stripping down my Giant Alias 2008 hardtail but got stymied by leaving my 1/2 drive ratchet at work. So I've got no way to turn the bottom bracket tool until tomorrow. Also going to have to buy a bottom bracket spanner to do up the two M33 nuts. The German install video helped confirm my suspicion that the thicker one goes on first. Other than that, the exploded view (page two of this thread) helped and the fact that it's impossible to get the plugs matched incorrectly.
I've trialled a method of mounting a couple of micro SMD reed switches so I can use my hydraulic break levers as ebrakes. More on that later.
It's looking like an ebike Christmas already
Kepler
10 MW
mushymelon said:
No I dont.
The more I use the drive though, the more I think the dead area at the start of the throttle rotation was purposely engineered into drive. The way the throttle is setup, the first half of rotation allows you to effectively cut out the PAS when you don't want any pedal assist. The second half of the throttle movement then becomes a normal throttle. The amount of engineering that has obviously gone into developing this drive make it hard for to believe they would purposely limit the range of the throttle without a good reason for doing so.
I really am quite pleased with the way this drive operates and performs.
