new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[markz]

digital level - now I gotta have one!
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Electronic-Digital-Inclinometer-Angle-Protractor-Gauge-Level-Box-Meter-/142041453131?hash=item211254924b:g:faQAAOSwvg9XdWI8

digital inclinometer angle protractor seems to be the terminology
C$20 seems to be the price

 

[flat tire]

You can do that with your phone.

Looks like the freewheel on this thing is as crappy as advertised, it's already loose on me. I'll try sickbikeparts but really I need to flip it the other way and put a sprocket on the rear disc. Then remove the freewheel on the motor itself so I can regen brake.

 

[flat tire]

OK I finally went for a ride. Here are my observations on 30S after a 600+ Wh ride:

Efficiency at low speed really sucks, but this problem will go away with enough reduction.

Top speed in low gear (32 I think) is actually 40+ mph. I need to put a smaller chainring in front to reduce the speed and increase torque in the lower gears. Still, on the trails this thing never failed to get me up some steep roots and inclines.

The bike has OK, not amazing acceleration off the line and hits really hard in the 20+ mph range. I reached a little under 6KW. My experience so far is the motor has some potential but the accessories in the cyclone kit are just absolute total garbage.

 

[gman1971]

OK I finally went for a ride. Here are my observations on 30S after a 600+ Wh ride:

Efficiency at low speed really sucks, but this problem will go away with enough reduction.

Top speed in low gear (32 I think) is actually 40+ mph. I need to put a smaller chainring in front to reduce the speed and increase torque in the lower gears. Still, on the trails this thing never failed to get me up some steep roots and inclines.

The bike has OK, not amazing acceleration off the line and hits really hard in the 20+ mph range. I reached a little under 6KW. My experience so far is the motor has some potential but the accessories in the cyclone kit are just absolute total garbage.

40mph is not bad for a 32T... that's my 3rd gear. Whats your top speed?

G.

 

[flat tire]

It may be a 36 actually, I don't know. So far 50 mph in 3rd, but the aero is very bad and it was nearing the end of the pack so the controller was limiting me to around 5kw. There's a huge flat bag in front of the bars with batteries and my seat is below bar level. So on another bike with good rider position, this setup could have a really good top speed.

This is a small motor and it can't take much current especially with stock cooling. The best way to get good power is to spin it faster and run more reduction. If the magnet wire is worth a crap and your controller can do the e-rpm it could be run on more voltage than 30S but some balancing work would need to be done. The welded stock freewheeled sprocket isn't even totally true on the shaft lol. Has anyone run one of these motors to 10KW thru high voltage high RPM?

 

[gman1971]

It may be a 36 actually, I don't know. So far 50 mph in 3rd, but the aero is very bad and it was nearing the end of the pack so the controller was limiting me to around 5kw. There's a huge flat bag in front of the bars with batteries and my seat is below bar level. So on another bike with good rider position, this setup could have a really good top speed.

This is a small motor and it can't take much current especially with stock cooling. The best way to get good power is to spin it faster and run more reduction. If the magnet wire is worth a crap and your controller can do the e-rpm it could be run on more voltage than 30S but some balancing work would need to be done. The welded stock freewheeled sprocket isn't even totally true on the shaft lol. Has anyone run one of these motors to 10KW thru high voltage high RPM?

50 mph is not bad. On one of my early videos I was doing 58 MPH on ~5.2 kW, very slight uphill... IIRC; and that was with an unfaired trike.

I've been running super high RPM since I first got my hands on the Cyclone almost 3 years ago... nothing new... at some point I thought about super high RPM super power, but after working on other areas of the trike I realized I didn't need it... I can already hit 60mph with ease, on much less than 5 kW so I have no need for more power... if anything I need less power. If you want stupid high RPM you should look into the Cyclone 7500XL... the Cyclone 3kW has a planetary gear inside that detracts from true high RPM operation, the loses in the planetary are huge at high RPM, and the higher you go, the more loss you have. But hey, I think you should now try 40S and see what happens, who knows; maybe at some point you should look into turbines too... those spin at 100k RPM or more...

Another reason why I never tried that was b/c someone did efficiency metrics on the Cyclone 3k motor at different voltages and found out that running the motor above 70V or 60V the efficiency dropped like a rock... hence why I never bothered with anything above 18S, which contrary to your opinion I think its stupid fast. If anyone thinks 5kW is even remotely slow then perhaps they should be looking into shifter karts.

G.

 

[flat tire]

I see, that sucks about the planetary reduction being so inefficient. Do you have a link to that test?

I ride motocross and am into cars, so a 5KW ebike is a lot of fun but of course it can be faster too...

 

[gman1971]

I see, that sucks about the planetary reduction being so inefficient. Do you have a link to that test?

I ride motocross and am into cars, so a 5KW ebike is a lot of fun but of course it can be faster too...

LOL, yeah, I know, there is no such a thing as enough speed, Heh!

Nice, I used to be big into cars too, swapping motors, bolting superchargers..., but now I like building my own pedal e-trike go-karts... Maybe you should try building one too if you think two wheels is fun... wait until you add that third wheel
Have a look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqdeZMUZo9k

Well, yeah, the fact that everyone is saying they can't get the same efficiency they got with their hubs should be proof enough of that... so even for the super-awesome C3kW there is a limit...

As for these motor tests I found them @ a Russian website a long while ago, and IIRC I think I might've posted one of these result images on this thread a very long time ago as well... I am sure other can chime in with additional info on this.

My advice would be to run 20S and overdrive the motor pinion instead to achieve high RPM at the crank (which is where you want the high RPM). Most of the fellow thread old-timers who take the C3kW to extremes are running 20S, I think Dingus is running 20S with an 18T motor cog, and I am not sure but I think Robocam runs 20S too... I am probably one of the very few running 18S in a high power application.

Cheers!

G.

 

[ebike11]

Hey guys...since most had problems with the freewheel and upgraded, has anyone had the freewheel malfunction and seize or or whatever it would do while riding at high speeds?

 

[gman1971]

Hey guys...since most had problems with the freewheel and upgraded, has anyone had the freewheel malfunction and seize or or whatever it would do while riding at high speeds?

I am not sure about seizing, on mine the threads came lose and it made the crank wobble like crazy... so I upgraded to the UHD one, that was before I figured that if you use a dab of red loctite on the threads it will stay on... In fact, my eBike still runs the original Cyclone crank freewheel after 3500 miles, never had an issue.

G.

 

[markz]

I got an issue, I hope its not the gears, I hope its the freewheel.

 

[gman1971]

I got an issue, I hope its not the gears, I hope its the freewheel.

Care to share the issue?

G.

 

[markz]

Sounds bad, too scared to find out, rode it a bit, thought it was the chain, thought it was the rear cassette but its coming from the front. Freewheel or gears, will have closer look tomorrow. Its odd because when I speed up the sound goes away, so I got me a feeling its freewheel. My hearings bad so. Oh yeah, another clue, yesterday, like Friday or Thursday, the pedals wouldnt freely spin in freewheeling backwards, a little friction action happening. Will look closer tomorrow.

 

[flat tire]

My freewheel is loose but the two lock rings are tight. What were you talking about tightening? I'll try to run it until it self destructs.

Replaced the inner chainring with a 32. The kit had a 44. We'll see more torque and the ability to use a couple more gears.

 

[ebike11]

@gman...Im still waiting on my 52T front chainring but I did go and install a 7 speed 14 to 32T rear cassette.
Naturally the 32T is a lot bigger than the next biggest which is 22 or 24T I believe.
The problem is the chainline. If the chain is on the middle cogs like the 16 or 18T then its straight but when the chain is on the 32T which is the innermost cog then its not lined up too well. Most of the time ill be using the 18T but sometimes id like to take advantage of the larger 32T.
Did you have a similar problem? Thx

 

[flat tire]

The chainline issue can be remedied by putting more standoffs on the drive chainring or rearranging your cassette discs. If you're not running a lot of power I wouldn't be too worried though. The chains are meant to take power while bent like that and while it will wear out sooner, unless you do tons of miles it's probably not a big deal for you if you do proper chain maintenance.

----smaller drive chainring mini review----
Well holy shit. I went and rode the new smaller drive chainring. This was really amazing. Maybe I will go for further reduction to use more of the cassette but the bike is perfectly usable as is. Now there is massive torque and incredible acceleration with a top speed around 30 in second gear which I used most of the time. I did some extremely steep and low speed climbs in 2nd and there are no issues. Finally this bike accelerates harder than my Leafmotor on 6KW. It will easily spin the wheels on any loose surface which means you can power thru sand and gravel like on a motocross bike.

I have NO IDEA why they sell this kit with a massive front chainring. It just sucks that way even on rated voltage.

 

[ebike11]

The chainline issue can be remedied by putting more standoffs on the drive chainring or rearranging your cassette discs. If you're not running a lot of power I wouldn't be too worried though. The chains are meant to take power while bent like that and while it will wear out sooner, unless you do tons of miles it's probably not a big deal for you if you do proper chain maintenance.

----smaller drive chainring mini review----
Well holy shit. I went and rode the new smaller drive chainring. This was really amazing. Maybe I will go for further reduction to use more of the cassette but the bike is perfectly usable as is. Now there is massive torque and incredible acceleration with a top speed around 30 in second gear which I used most of the time. I did some extremely steep and low speed climbs in 2nd and there are no issues. Finally this bike accelerates harder than my Leafmotor on 6KW. It will easily spin the wheels on any loose surface which means you can power thru sand and gravel like on a motocross bike.

I have NO IDEA why they sell this kit with a massive front chainring. It just sucks that way even on rated voltage.

Sorry what do you mean by more standoff on the chain?

 

[flat tire]

If there's clearance you can mount the drive chain ring more inboard using larger spacers and longer fastening hardware.

 

[ebike11]

If there's clearance you can mount the drive chain ring more inboard using larger spacers and longer fastening hardware.

I see..makes sense...im not myself today haha

 

[Exhodus]

Hey,

I'm writing to this thread since I'm planning to outfit a velomobile with a cyclone mid drive, but I'd like to ask for some guidance in sizing the system.
My aim is to make a reasonable commuter vehicle, that can keep up with city traffic and I don't have to break a sweat on uphills.

The base is an old Bluevelo Team, so it is pretty heavy, with the motors and the batteries added it is going to weigh at least 30 kilos, and I'm around 90 kilos, so it is gonna need some torque, on the other hand the velo is supposed to be waaaay more aerodynamic than a standard bike, so top speed might be pretty reasonable even on low power.
My biggest concern is the Sram drive in the back, geared hub with 3 speeds with a 6 gear casette on the side of it.
The way the Velo is laid out, it just begs for a motor with a double freewheel to be inserted right in front of the back swing arm, I just don't know how much power can I put through the rear drive train without running a high risk of damaging it.
Also with this setup the motor would have access to all 18 gears on the bike, which might make it reasonable to have a non geared motor on there, or might make it a horribly bad idea to put a motor in that configuration the first place...

As far as other components go, I'm considering a Vesc controller, and I already have two big 6s lipo packs for the bike, so I can very easily go 24 or 48 volt or can hit somewhere in between with adding lower cell count batteries, I was thinking testing on 24 volts and if that does not cut it go to 48...

I'd be happy to hear any recommendations or ideas about this build

 

[markz]

I got an issue, I hope its not the gears, I hope its the freewheel.

Care to share the issue?

G.

Yeah, well I am using a 1 spd chain, and I put it on a cog on the freewheel that makes it too tight when I put wheel back in. Just moved it one cog smaller, bitta extra slack but it works good now. It had wonky symptoms when it was too tight, the crank freewheel wouldnt move smoothly, there was odd noises that were strange. But the low down is the 1spd chain was super duper tight, which put extra strain on the crank freewheel gear and/or freewheel itself. Whether it flexed the BB axle which I doubt it, but did deform the freewheel gear and put extra strain on the freewheel itself.

 

[gman1971]

The chainline issue can be remedied by putting more standoffs on the drive chainring or rearranging your cassette discs. If you're not running a lot of power I wouldn't be too worried though. The chains are meant to take power while bent like that and while it will wear out sooner, unless you do tons of miles it's probably not a big deal for you if you do proper chain maintenance.

----smaller drive chainring mini review----
Well holy shit. I went and rode the new smaller drive chainring. This was really amazing. Maybe I will go for further reduction to use more of the cassette but the bike is perfectly usable as is. Now there is massive torque and incredible acceleration with a top speed around 30 in second gear which I used most of the time. I did some extremely steep and low speed climbs in 2nd and there are no issues. Finally this bike accelerates harder than my Leafmotor on 6KW. It will easily spin the wheels on any loose surface which means you can power thru sand and gravel like on a motocross bike.

I have NO IDEA why they sell this kit with a massive front chainring. It just sucks that way even on rated voltage.

I have to disagree with your statement about "sucks that way on rated voltage". Perhaps you don't know how to extract the performance and needed to invest money in expensive controllers and super high voltages to achieve what can be easily done with the stock setup; as I have no shortage of performance on my trike running 18S @ 6kW with stock everything, stock motor, stock controller (amped up to 90A), stock chainring 44/48/24, on a 10speed chain w/ 5+k miles per chain life, top speed of more than 70mph and a 0-30mph as quick as a 500cc ATV, so not sure how that would be "suck at rated voltage"

G.

 

[gman1971]

Hey man, I run a custom made half-velo trike (open cockpit but velo on the bottom) Expect insane speeds on even 3kW.

I will send you a PM.

G.

Hey,

I'm writing to this thread since I'm planning to outfit a velomobile with a cyclone mid drive, but I'd like to ask for some guidance in sizing the system.
My aim is to make a reasonable commuter vehicle, that can keep up with city traffic and I don't have to break a sweat on uphills.

The base is an old Bluevelo Team, so it is pretty heavy, with the motors and the batteries added it is going to weigh at least 30 kilos, and I'm around 90 kilos, so it is gonna need some torque, on the other hand the velo is supposed to be waaaay more aerodynamic than a standard bike, so top speed might be pretty reasonable even on low power.
My biggest concern is the Sram drive in the back, geared hub with 3 speeds with a 6 gear casette on the side of it.
The way the Velo is laid out, it just begs for a motor with a double freewheel to be inserted right in front of the back swing arm, I just don't know how much power can I put through the rear drive train without running a high risk of damaging it.
Also with this setup the motor would have access to all 18 gears on the bike, which might make it reasonable to have a non geared motor on there, or might make it a horribly bad idea to put a motor in that configuration the first place...

As far as other components go, I'm considering a Vesc controller, and I already have two big 6s lipo packs for the bike, so I can very easily go 24 or 48 volt or can hit somewhere in between with adding lower cell count batteries, I was thinking testing on 24 volts and if that does not cut it go to 48...

I'd be happy to hear any recommendations or ideas about this build

 

[DingusMcGee]

Gman,

Well, yeah, the fact that everyone is saying they can't get the same efficiency they got with their hubs should be proof enough of that... so even for the super-awesome C3kW there is a limit...

The Hub motored road bike (No Suspension) for which I was comparing efficiency, Wh/mi, had small high pressure tires and was obviously more streamlined than my e-dirt-bikes. I am sure I could tinker with a Cyclone 3000 mid drive on a no suspension frame and get higher efficiencies than the comparison I reported.

A bike without full suspension and without fatter tires (2.5 - 2.7) is not going to make a good or pleasant e-dirt-bike.

Forget the soft rubber tires on the rear of an edirtbike running the C-3000 as they do not last very long.

Gman -- you've got some impressive performance with the $300 Cyclone-3000 motor.

I sold the Lightning Rod Fat bike some time ago and only consider C-3000's & now a Cyclone 4000w mid drives.

Robo, the diameter of the 4000w motor is bigger than the C-3000 so it likely is a motor of more rated wattage than just the switch to a 60A controller to get the 4000w rating.

 

[gman1971]

Gman,

Well, yeah, the fact that everyone is saying they can't get the same efficiency they got with their hubs should be proof enough of that... so even for the super-awesome C3kW there is a limit...

The Hub motored road bike (No Suspension) for which I was comparing efficiency, Wh/mi, had small high pressure tires and was obviously more streamlined than my e-dirt-bikes. I am sure I could tinker with a Cyclone 3000 mid drive on a no suspension frame and get higher efficiencies than the comparison I reported.

A bike without full suspension and without fatter tires (2.5 - 2.7) is not going to make a good or pleasant e-dirt-bike.

Forget the soft rubber tires on the rear of an edirtbike running the C-3000 as they do not last very long.

Gman -- you've got some impressive performance with the $300 Cyclone-3000 motor.

I sold the Lightning Rod Fat bike some time ago and only consider C-3000's & now a Cyclone 4000w mid drives.

Robo, the diameter of the 4000w motor is bigger than the C-3000 so it likely is a motor of more rated wattage than just the switch to a 60A controller to get the 4000w rating.

Hey Dingus,

As you remember, the motor freewheel adapter for a large freewheel, the one you recommended me a while ago is what made possible the 0-30mph times I am getting now, so thank you!! And for as much performance as it might have, I wouldn't dare to go up a 51% hill like you do, or ride single track crazy stuff, as I am certain stuff (and me) will break in a heartbeat... BTW, also wanted to apologize from my part for the whole mess we got into a while ago; I realize that things could've been handled much better.

Cheers!

G.