New e-Bike build with RC components

[quickshot23]

I am new to everything e-bike but I am a longtime RC builder Questions marked with a **

I have built everything from 1/8 scale to 1/16 scale truck/cars

My build (which I am writing for advice)

I have a 26" Mountain Bike

I want to add RC components (ESC/Batteries/Motor) and wire a grip-twist throttle to propel it

Mainly the issue I have is, there are many motors out there and I know that I can jump to a top of the line motor but I need to get this rolling first with lower cost components

I would like to source from Hobbyking for the initial build and then upgrade later

**One question I had was, most people use "hall" sensors to smooth out lower speed "cogging"**

In the RC world if you have a heavy vehicle and want to avoid cogging, you use a sensored speed controller and motor

**Is this RC sensored system the same as Hall sensors?**

**Also, will any motor under say 200Kv work? Does the can size matter?**

**What about ESCs....I am looking to run probably a 44.4v lipo setup**

**Also, what about batteries - People oftem build 10,000mAh or 10Ah setups but is this necessary to operate? Will a 5000mAh or 5Ah work but just have less runtime?**

**Finally, I know that I must reduce gearing, is there any "transmissions" that I can buy and just mount the motor/chain or does this have to be made by me?**

Sorry for the extensive questions - I love electronics and I hope to make a pretty bool build thread but I need to figure out these questions before I order these parts

Thanks guys/girls

God Bless

 

[wesnewell]

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[quickshot23]

Updated : )

 

[gwhy!1]

I am new to everything e-bike but I am a longtime RC builder Questions marked with a **

I have built everything from 1/8 scale to 1/16 scale truck/cars

My build (which I am writing for advice)

I have a 26" Mountain Bike

I want to add RC components (ESC/Batteries/Motor) and wire a grip-twist throttle to propel it

Mainly the issue I have is, there are many motors out there and I know that I can jump to a top of the line motor but I need to get this rolling first with lower cost components

I would like to source from Hobbyking for the initial build and then upgrade later

**One question I had was, most people use "hall" sensors to smooth out lower speed "cogging"** if by cogging you mean not starting up under load then yes

In the RC world if you have a heavy vehicle and want to avoid cogging, you use a sensored speed controller and motor

**Is this RC sensored system the same as Hall sensors?** YES

**Also, will any motor under say 200Kv work? Does the can size matter?** The lower Kv the easier for gear reduction 170kv is about as high as you would want to go without causing major headache with gear ratios , a good size to play with is 6374's you can get a good 3.5kw 170kv motor in this size for around $70

**What about ESCs....I am looking to run probably a 44.4v lipo setup** I dont know of any 44v sensored rc esc's, except the alian systems esc's but these are very expensive for what they are, better off getting a modded 12fet e-bike controller for half the price

**Also, what about batteries - People oftem build 10,000mAh or 10Ah setups but is this necessary to operate? Will a 5000mAh or 5Ah work but just have less runtime?** Yes 5ah will just be half the runtime but if building a rc hotrod ( 70A+ ) then min of 10ah will be needed due to voltage drop.

**Finally, I know that I must reduce gearing, is there any "transmissions" that I can buy and just mount the motor/chain or does this have to be made by me?** the only thing that can be bought ,as far as I know is the reduction that Matt ( recumpence on this forum )makes its not cheap, but looks nice.But you will have to make your own or equivalent if you want to save money

Sorry for the extensive questions - I love electronics and I hope to make a pretty bool build thread but I need to figure out these questions before I order these parts

Thanks guys/girls

God Bless

 

[quickshot23]

**Also, will any motor under say 200Kv work? Does the can size matter?** The lower Kv the easier for gear reduction 170kv is about as high as you would want to go without causing major headache with gear ratios , a good size to play with is 6374's you can get a good 3.5kw 170kv motor in this size for around $70

- This is an RC motor?

**What about ESCs....I am looking to run probably a 44.4v lipo setup** I dont know of any 44v sensored rc esc's, except the alian systems esc's but these are very expensive for what they are, better off getting a modded 12fet e-bike controller for half the price

Will this eBike controller work with a RC motor or is the motor you are referring to an "eBike" motor?

**Also, what about batteries - People oftem build 10,000mAh or 10Ah setups but is this necessary to operate? Will a 5000mAh or 5Ah work but just have less runtime?** Yes 5ah will just be half the runtime but if building a rc hotrod ( 70A+ ) then min of 10ah will be needed due to voltage drop.

What performance difference would I see between 36 and 48 volt? I need to find a battery setup that will be in budget but also strong enough for my needs

**Finally, I know that I must reduce gearing, is there any "transmissions" that I can buy and just mount the motor/chain or does this have to be made by me?** the only thing that can be bought ,as far as I know is the reduction that Matt ( recumpence on this forum )makes its not cheap, but looks nice.But you will have to make your own or equivalent if you want to save money

So does every person CNC their own motor mounts and sprockets or is there a source that you can get a basic version and modify as needed?

Thanks again for your guys help - this forum seems very awesome and this is only my 3rd post : )

God Bless

 

[gwhy!1]

**Also, will any motor under say 200Kv work? Does the can size matter?** The lower Kv the easier for gear reduction 170kv is about as high as you would want to go without causing major headache with gear ratios , a good size to play with is 6374's you can get a good 3.5kw 170kv motor in this size for around $70

- This is an RC motor?
yes it is a rc motor

**What about ESCs....I am looking to run probably a 44.4v lipo setup** I dont know of any 44v sensored rc esc's, except the alian systems esc's but these are very expensive for what they are, better off getting a modded 12fet e-bike controller for half the price

Will this eBike controller work with a RC motor or is the motor you are referring to an "eBike" motor?
yes a infineon 12fet sensored ebike controller will work with a the above rc motor, but you will have to somehow fit hall sensors onto the motor.

**Also, what about batteries - People oftem build 10,000mAh or 10Ah setups but is this necessary to operate? Will a 5000mAh or 5Ah work but just have less runtime?** Yes 5ah will just be half the runtime but if building a rc hotrod ( 70A+ ) then min of 10ah will be needed due to voltage drop.

What performance difference would I see between 36 and 48 volt? I need to find a battery setup that will be in budget but also strong enough for my needs
Now that really depends what performance you are after, 36v will make the gearing a little easier. The lower the voltage you run at the more current you will need to increase performance.

**Finally, I know that I must reduce gearing, is there any "transmissions" that I can buy and just mount the motor/chain or does this have to be made by me?** the only thing that can be bought ,as far as I know is the reduction that Matt ( recumpence on this forum )makes its not cheap, but looks nice.But you will have to make your own or equivalent if you want to save money

So does every person CNC their own motor mounts and sprockets or is there a source that you can get a basic version and modify as needed?

there are many off the self options to put something together but there is normally some fabrication involved for some parts, there are plenty of threads within this forum to give you some ideas on what and how to do it.

Thanks again for your guys help - this forum seems very awesome and this is only my 3rd post : )

God Bless

 

[quickshot23]

I understand the motor needs the Hall Sensors but if I did not have them could it still be done?

What I mean is, I have seen people run RC setups and pedal to 5 or 10mph and then hit the throttle

Will this controller require Hall sensors or if I do not have them will I just need to pedal first?

Also, do you have a link so I can check out the specs on that motor that you have referenced?

Also, what about the "off the shelf" options for motor mounting - do you have a link so I can get an idea of where to start?

Thank you

God Bless

 

[wesnewell]

Just do the sensible thing and buy a kit for your bike. You'll probably waste more time and money trying to use an rc motor and put a kit together.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/26-Electric-Bike-Bicycle-Motor-Conversion-Kit-eBike-Rear-Wheel-48V-1000W-/370934929537

 

[quickshot23]

Im not trying to argue but I dont see this as sensible

I can buy better more powerful components at a lower cost but it requires me to build mounts etc.

To me, the RC option seems like the better choice provided I can do the work

That is what I am reaching out for - to find out what is required and if I am capable

 

[gwhy!1]

if you fit hall sensors and use a e-bike controller then there will be no need to get the motor upto around 60rpm before you can power the motor, if you use a rc unsensored controller then yes you will need to get the motor spinning up before you can give it some throttle.

Have a look through some rc build on this forum to get some ideals on whats involved.

http://www.giantshark.co.uk/product/172045/n6374-09-kv170-outrunner-brushless-motor this is what I would recommend for a first rc project.

but be warned there is a very long steep learning curve with using a rc motor for a e-bike, but when you have it sussed it works better than a off the self kit that I know of

 

[quickshot23]

That motor seems great - only issue is - it is international shipping

Is this available in the US? If not, is there an alternative?

I see Hobby King (USA Warehouse) has a 6374 168KV motor but it is only 2400w - What will that mean when it is installed - Slower speed/less torque/both?
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/..._Brushless_Outrunner_Motor_US_Warehouse_.html

How about motor plates or mounting brackets for these? Are there any basic designs that I could purchase and begin modifying before these parts get here?

What benefit will I get to purchasing a lyen controller versus a standard ebay one?

I plan to do a "new to ebiking build thread" but I need to figure out the items before doing that

You guys/girls are awesome - answering all my questions

Thank you again

God Bless

 

[gwhy!1]

That motor seems great - only issue is - it is international shipping

Is this available in the US? If not, is there an alternative?

I see Hobby King (USA Warehouse) has a 6374 168KV motor but it is only 2400w - What will that mean when it is installed - Slower speed/less torque/both?
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/..._Brushless_Outrunner_Motor_US_Warehouse_.html

How about motor plates or mounting brackets for these? Are there any basic designs that I could purchase and begin modifying before these parts get here?

What benefit will I get to purchasing a lyen controller versus a standard ebay one?

I plan to do a "new to ebiking build thread" but I need to figure out the items before doing that

You guys/girls are awesome - answering all my questions

Thank you again

God Bless

I dont know of anyone that have used that exact motor for a mid-drive setup but it should work.. I expect you can find the 6374'' like in my link in other online shops in the usa .

if you do not fit sensors to the motor then your only real option is to go with a sensorless rc esc, as some e-bike sensorless controllers will not run these motors above 4500rpm so unless you want to run it on 24v do with a sensorless ebike controller other wise you need sensored or a rc esc .

what is your goals as regards performance.

edit:
All the information that is needed is on this forum so you need to start reading, is all part of the learning curve.

 

[quickshot23]

I have been doing research for awhile now - reading this and other forums

I am asking questions here that I did not uncover the answer to or felt the answer I did find may not exactly apply to my situation


As for my performance goals - I would love it to have the torque to pull my daughter in her childseat trailer - this may be too much but that would be awesome - the trailer is 35lbs and she is also 35lbs - I can pull it up a steep hill but it is difficult on the bike - we probably go 3-5mpg while going up this hill

Otherwise my goals are 25-35-45-55mph (honestly as fast as It could possibly go without burning up)

 

[quickshot23]

Ultimately - I want a good system that will propel me around at 30+ mph

ive seen the 1000w hub motor kits on ebay for 250+ without batteries but I cant help but see that I can get a 2000-3500w RC setup with batteries for 300-350

I would actually consider the 1000w hub system if I could do it for the same price but it doesnt seem possible

Does anyone have any insight on how I can get a running powerful system for 350ish or is this unreasonable (I have searched and I dont see it possible unless I go used) - I would go used but I do not see any available

 

[gwhy!1]

Ultimately - I want a good system that will propel me around at 30+ mph

ive seen the 1000w hub motor kits on ebay for 250+ without batteries but I cant help but see that I can get a 2000-3500w RC setup with batteries for 300-350

I would actually consider the 1000w hub system if I could do it for the same price but it doesn't seem possible

Does anyone have any insight on how I can get a running powerful system for 350ish or is this unreasonable (I have searched and I dont see it possible unless I go used) - I would go used but I do not see any available

yes a rc set can be done for 350, but by someone who has done it before and is aware of all the pitfalls and has experience in building bikes, for a first timer rc build you can double the cost maybe even triple it .. at least with a hub it will just work and there is very little hidden cost. I am not trying to put you off doing a rc build , but if you are on a fixed limited budget and want it done within a couple of months then forget about a rc build. But if you want to do down the rc route then the motor I pointed to will hit your targets so then its upto you to source the parts needed as there are so many variables. People on this forum can only offer advise on your ideas and can not tell you exactly what to buy to achieve your targets.

 

[Ugrd]

Also ive read multiple places with RC motors on e bikes are pretty inefficient at acceleration. Meaning a 4kw RC motor in reality is just like a 1kw hub motor at acceleration. If your fine with this than fine go with RC. But RC motors in my opinion just aren't a good idea anymore. Please explore the idea of a hub motor or a geared hub motor, or a mid drive maybe.

 

[quickshot23]

I hear you and I agree with what you are saying

Ultimately, the only thing I cannot wrap my mind around is the gear reduction

I understand the concept - have watched a bunch of videos with people who have done it

but have found very little on things like - mounting a sprocket on the shaft from the RC motor or without CNC'ing, how are people making these motor mounts/gear reduction setups

From what I understand (correct me if im wrong), if I have the motor mounted with a (just an example) 13T sprocket - running to a very large 40T sprocket, this would be the reduction that is necessary.

Im not questioning your judgement because you clearly have built more than I in the bike world but you stated that it will take several months, can you explain why you think it would take that much time?

If I have all the parts, it is just an alignment/mounting game. Once its solid, im good

Wouldnt this just take a few hours or maybe a weekend?

 

[gwhy!1]

first problem, you need to decide on what voltage you intend to run at... select a motor....workout the rpm of the motor at full voltage.. calculate over all gear ratio to rear wheel to give you your max speed ... calculate what gear ratios you can fit on the frame and where you are going to mount the jackshaft .. you can either drive the cranks via the jackshaft or have a additional chain to the rear wheel direct for the jackshaft , this very much depends on the type of bike frame you are using. You just got to make everything fit onto your bike and all line up by what ever method you can archive , you dont need cnc stuff to do this. most rc setup require a 2 stage reduction before you drive the cranks due to the speed that rc motors spin. motor sprockets can be found on ebay but it will be down to you to find one that fits into your calculations for your gearing. some people use belts and some use chains, some common chains and sprockets used are #25,#35,#219,6mm,8mm and you need to find sets that match your gear calculations that fit on the bike. this is part one of the problem..

second problem, you need to mount all the sprockets on the shafts that you will be using ( jackshafts ) then you need to work out how you are going to connect it to the bike. once you have it all mounted on the bike and it all looks inline and runs smoothly next you tackle the electrics.

this thread should give you some idea of some of the steps needed to make and mount a jackshaft
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=22245&hilit=new+old+build

 

[quickshot23]

Awesome - thank you for that information - very helpful

I have looked and found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9brryyFeBQ

The way he did his drive chain seems very simple and (unless there is a con to this idea) most likely what I am going to do

I will begin measuring my frame and choosing a stem for the shafts

As for the voltage - I would like to go 48v 10A Lipo - I am going to use a 150kv motor in the 2000-3000kw range

As for the controller - I havent decided yet - Hall sensors with a ebike controller (this avoids the need to modify a throttle to work) but requires me to add hall sensors

or

An RC controller with no hall sensors, a modified throttle, and the inability to start without rolling/peddling first

Any advice is greatly appreciated

 

[bionicdan]

I looked into all this faff but decided mid drives look like they force you to pedal in an easier gear than you want to keep it happy. My country has bad fabrication supplies so that put me off a bunch of other things. Eventually I got a mac motor for 350usd running at around 40a 50v at 30mph 10t winding. It rips up hills beats cars and am generally pleased with the perfect true on the half decent rim.

I used to have a my1016 that only drew 6amps and kept me over 20mph with assist. They are pennies to buy but need a good 10.1 reduction min.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Schwinn-350W-24V-Clutch-Bike-DC-Electric-Scooter-Motor-350-Watt-GUARANTEED-TEST-/111296518023?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e9ca1787

http://www.partsforscooters.com/120-58_motor_Currie (750w is at 36v I think)

controllers are cheap too

I did have a 89t sprocket with a 54mm hole that mounted on to many types of freewheel easily but cant find any now.

http://www.adaracing.com/parts/scooter/sprockets-chains/all/18 Heres a link to 80-98t ones whick look similar

 

[AussieJester]

Also ive read multiple places with RC motors on e bikes are pretty inefficient at acceleration. Meaning a 4kw RC motor in reality is just like a 1kw hub motor at acceleration. If your fine with this than fine go with RC. But RC motors in my opinion just aren't a good idea anymore. Please explore the idea of a hub motor or a geared hub motor, or a mid drive maybe.

links to the information stating this, would like to read that myself please.. Cheers in advance.

my rc setup is extremely efficient, have you tried one? I haven't and never will use a frock motor
as I have seen so many builds and ridden with people using them. ack you can keep em

"pedal in an easier great to make it happy" WTF are you talking about... bionicdan

This is the NON HUB section of the forum, why are you suggesting frock motor in the first place? this gentleman has specifically
asked for help using rc motors..

GWhy is the man to take advice from here as he's built many rc setups.. ideally you could knock one up over a weekend
never seen it done successfully before, you could be the first. it's hard to beat the lightweight high burst power output
of an rc motor, they pull like freight trains, climb anything with ease and the centralised weight doesn't destroy the bikes balance or mess with the bikes suspension like frock setups... well worth the time to build,

having built 5 mid mount custom ground up e-bike builds now I would strongly recommend not going senseless
GWhy tried in bane to convert me to a sensors setup, it's light and day difference and fitting hall sensors is very
easy, just need epoxy to stick them in place, great information here how to do so, you need to read more
before attempting anything me thinks..

best off luck


KiM

 

[bionicdan]

"pedal in an easier great? to make it happy" WTF are you talking about... bionicdan


KiM

[/quote]

Im talking about what at least three other members in this thread have, That rc drives seem good until you get into them concerning the complexity and higher risk of burning something (costing more in the long run). Who also suggest a hub motor might be good to consider if he decides he feels out of his depth. The OP also states he would consider a hub motor and asks for insight from peoples experience.

I was explaining that my lack of drive to want to experiment on a RC motor configuration is that I often see people moaning about the gearing while trying to peddle assist. My basis for agreeing with the other three users in this thread to go with a safer option is, if you havnt got a constant supply of paper money when something doesnt work out or it doesnt ride nicely stick to something safe and warranted.

Im not sure if you have misread what you "quoted" from me but you have at least misspelled some of it?

A motor has a happy rpm range and the videos of able bodied cyclist trying to assist a mid-drive motor up a hill looked a bit frantic for my liking. People yearning for 52t sprockets back that up a little maybe.

This post is about research to decide if he has what it takes to do the mid drive. If he had bitten the bullet and started buying parts I wouldnt have said anything as I have no experience with rc drives other than observation and reading other peoples build threads, from end to end.

 

[quickshot23]

Honestly I think I will go with a hub motor

The reason is less - I dont want to do the work and more - I am anxious to have a running e-bike

I posted a "wanted" ad about a hub motor

We shall see what happens : )