New GNG Mid Drive Brushless 60V650W

[lantice13]

Yes the ES Facebook page... I'm Hemdan. anyway I got a brushed kit from them about 3 years ago and it just torn itself apart.... literally just bad design over all. then I got a gen 2 about 1.5 years ago and that had been fine with my dual motor bike up to now so it's a 50/50 thing. so I have no idea what to expect of this kit..... anyway ebay kinda changed their policy about their returns and such.. http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/paypal-expanding-return-window-to-six-months-100614.html so I spent the extra $$$ for that matter. I can get these things cheaper at aliexpress though.

 

[emaayan]

Yes the ES Facebook page... anyway I got a brushed kit from them about 3 years ago and it just torn itself apart.... literally just bad design over all. then I got a gen 2 about 1.5 years ago and that had been fine with my dual motor bike up to now so it's a 50/50 thing. so I have no idea what to expect of this kit..... anyway ebay kinda changed their policy about their returns and such.. http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/paypal-expanding-return-window-to-six-months-100614.html so I spent the extra $$$ for that matter. I can get these things cheaper at aliexpress though.

nice to know that. would definitely consider that.

anyway, it would seem at least from upper bracket they learned their lesson and simply integrated it directly into the motor. if that's true, i looks more durable. my only real concern is durable off-the-shelf parts. for example the driven primary sprocket doesn't seem to have a standard replaceable interface.

 

[lantice13]

The stock 60v controller seems like it got an LVC of 40V as seen in this test. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWgx0SH4-SI so it should work for a 48v battery pack which I'm planning on using on this thing. I'm upgrading to a kelly controller eventually since it got the torque mode feature that I want to control torque ramp up to save my bike drive train. The gen 2 that I have got the same 48v controller and the throttle response on that setup is very twitchy. same with my first gng brushed middrive. too much torque at stall. been reading around for potential solution and it seems like CA v3 and a kelly controller should do it. As for water problems in the freewheel, it's pretty much the same as the 7 speed freewheels which are not really sealed so as soon as you got them wet, you had to flush it and then re-lube the freewheel. The upper bracket is integrated with the motor housing. Gotta love competition. I guess they are feeling the heat from Lightningrods small block and big block kits. Bafang BBS02 kits are really popular too.

 

[emaayan]

yea, i'm trying to the gng after returning from lightningrod.

i also heard good stuff about bafang, but it's TOO integrated, meaning, it even has it's own bb (i'd like to try to use my 136 mm thun bb with it) i also heard it heats up too much.
gng in general seems like a good option, because it's doesn't restrict you a custom planetary drive.

 

[lantice13]

been getting reports of BBS01-2 controller burnout lately at ESFB even the ones with newer 9fet internal controllers. That is the reason I didn't gone that route yet for my latest build. for the money, it needs to be really reliable not halfbaked like the earlier gng kits. Other members had upgraded the chain ring on those as well. As for the controller, only way to make them really reliable is to modify it to work on an external controller. seems like em3ev infineons work really well with them. so what is wrong with your LR kit?

 

[lantice13]

this is my current build using this gng kit. still work in progress. new frame battery pack is still in China. the battery pack in the picture is to wide for this bike.

 

[emaayan]

the internal controller is one of the reasons i didn't go for it.

my l-r kit contains the prototype lower and upper sheets which got twisted due to too much torque, however due to apparently posting too many messages and questions in the build thread which deemed too basic by the rest, l-r has evidently decided to ignore me, which is unfortunate considering the lyen controller i purchased got returned to him (short story it got held up in customs, and i preferred to return it) i was hoping to use the 150$ refund for the new parts, but now it would seem i neither get a refund, parts or a response saying either what he chose to do.

(moderator edit: ES member LightningRods had blocked this member, so he does not see these posts. The $150 has been refunded to member Emayaan)

i choose to believe that not refunding is due to an oversight on his part and not purposely deciding so, as this really crosses all lines. but as i said i'm guessing he auto routes all my emails to a trash can , (i've waited a week after my last mail before i finally gave up).

not my first incident, a shop in israel i purchased mid-drive from, switched owners later, and abruptly refused to support me and others (after it's new owner threw out all the spare parts) and before that another shop refused to support me when one of it's 8 owners got into jail and started having difficulties (not my fault)

that's why i started getting and ordering my own kits, cause bottom line, there's always gonna be a chance you'd be left hanging for any number of reasons.

 

[stocaz]

great great design
with this new VERSION THERE ARE NO MORE PROBLEM of bending and torsion like the old sheet frame, i see.
and it's cheap

 

[emaayan]

Oh hey stocaz nice to see you here too

You have the 2015 version?

 

[speedmd]

Looks like they did not cure most of the important issues. Still needs idlers (no way to adjust sprocket spacing), and top mount is still badly in need of better securing to the frame. At least the motor comes with a straight shaft that can fit a common chain sprocket. Far cry from the adjustable LR setup.

 

[lantice13]

it's also $400 cheaper? so can't really complain about not being perfect and all. If it survives at it's stock rating for more than 6 months then it's a good alternative to the 8fun BBS mids which are pretty much on the same price bracket, and have it's own set's of issues as well. :wink:

 

[emaayan]

it's also $400 cheaper? so can't really complain about not being perfect and all. If it survives at it's stock rating for more than 6 months then it's a good alternative to the 8fun BBS mids which are pretty much on the same price bracket, and have it's own set's of issues as well. :wink:

agreed, the noise doesn't really bother me, and the price for removing idlers is the enlarge the entire kit to make it adjustable. and the longer it is, the more torque is applied to the sheets and easier to bend ( thus the original bending issue) i still don't know exactly how it will attach to the upper frame. but 6 months is too short, i'd prefer a year before i'll have to replace parts, but i guess it all depends on your usage or watts, i'll be trying 1700 watts, and 20 miles commute daily.

 

[lantice13]

the internal controller is one of the reasons i didn't go for it.

my l-r kit contains the prototype lower and upper sheets which got twisted due to too much torque, however due to apparently posting too many messages and questions in the build thread which deemed too basic by the rest, l-r has evidently decided to ignore me, which is unfortunate considering the lyen controller i purchased got returned to him (short story it got held up in customs, and i preferred to return it) i was hoping to use the 150$ refund for the new parts, but now it would seem i neither get a refund, parts or a response saying either what he chose to do.
i choose to believe that not refunding is due to an oversight on his part and not purposely deciding so, as this really crosses all lines. but as i said i'm guessing he auto routes all my emails to a trash can , (i've waited a week after my last mail before i finally gave up).

not my first incident, a shop in Israel i purchased mid-drive from, switched owners later, and abruptly refused to support me and others (after it's new owner threw out all the spare parts) and before that another shop refused to support me when one of it's 8 owners got into jail and started having difficulties (not my fault)

that's why i started getting and ordering my own kits, cause bottom line, there's always gonna be a chance you'd be left hanging for any number of reasons.

Sorry to hear that, I've only heard great things from the guy but then again I didn't get his kit since it will get me over budget with my build. I heard that it's a bitch to import ebike stuff into Israel as other members pointed out. It seems like early versions of the small block LR middrive kit also had its own problems as one thread pointed out last year. If you got one of the beta sheets, then tinkering with it to get it to work is a given. Need to wait several revisions to get the kinks ironed down. It should be improved now on the latest revisions I would think. If you are trying to get better customer service and warranty on GNG kits, you will be greatly disappointed as most probably there would be none if you bought it from their main store. Then again I'm not calling this thing junk for now till I experience things myself with my own riding conditions.

 

[emaayan]

the only REAL customer service i'll need is parts. simply that, i'm willing even to pay for them provided they don't cost an arm or a leg or wear too often.

usually all the other stuff on how to install is something i can figure out myself. or ask here.

in general L-R is seems like a good person, he just needs a sales guy to buffer him from the rest . if he looses patience with you, you're done, which is ok, if you just sell stuff to "the guys" here, but if you're target audience is the masses who want quick and simple installation and don't understand much, you might have a problem, matt from the astro kit, was also ready to sell me his kit, but quickly changed his mind after he saw my participation in l-r's build thread , enclosing that he doesn't have much time for support and that i'm my own for the most part (but what finally convinced me away is the requirement to have a pack that's able to output 150amps for 3 seconds).

i haven't given up on the l-r kit either, i may even order new lower and upper sheets from someone in israel, even though it may cost 10 times to reverse engineer them (but at least he said he'd give me 6 months warranty) the reason being that you can interchange the motor's sprockets to 219 karts ones instead of the custom belt pulley (like he did with a big block he made for someone) not only will that give me full off the shelf high end parts, but i may also even be able to shorten the shaft and may use the thun.

the belt although quiet ,gave me some problems because at higher gears i experienced some slips ups .
i'm actually rather surprised the current gng kit requires a 150mm bb. i'm hopeing i'd be able to use the thun here a well.
btw , he gng motor itself is somewhat thinner then l-r's kit.

 

[ebike11]

great great design
with this new VERSION THERE ARE NO MORE PROBLEM of bending and torsion like the old sheet frame, i see.
and it's cheap

Haha dont think there will be no more problems. About have the kit is good and the other half needs to be replaced. Plus they increased their price by about $100
Jon also is a terrible seller to deal with when it comes to communication

 

[emaayan]

the questions what would need to be replaced, and how, and for what usage? if your'e gonna use for 3000 watts probably, but for half of it?

if it would need laser shops parts then i'm screwed, however, if i'd need to use a machinist, or maybe or order better parts. just point me to a source or what to look for (dimensions) and i'm there.

i'm about to get myself the second package in the following days, i'm considering to use my secondary trek 7700 for experiments (just in case i'll run into trouble i'll still be able to use my primary system)
, i'm not sure the procedure, should i post here what happens,, should i create a new build thread? is there a build thread for 2015 ? SHOULD there be a general thread for the 2015? questions..questions..
if there's a separate thread that should be created for it, i don't think i should be the one opening it.

 

[spinningmagnets]

my l-r kit contains the prototype lower and upper sheets which got twisted due to too much torque, however due to apparently posting too many messages and questions in the build thread which deemed too basic by the rest

I'm going to do my best to be open and fair to you, Emayaan. As of today, you have posted 505 times in the LightningRods mid drive thread. This doesn't even count the mind-boggling number of PMs you have sent to LR and me (hundreds of PMs...HUNDREDS). Mike has chosen to block seeing your posts, and that is the reason he doesn't respond when you post.

Many months ago, I publicly posted in that thread that the LR kit was not the right system for you, but you insisted on experimenting with it. Other builders (there is an index in the second post) have run more power than you through this kit, without any of the type of damage you describe, and have posted pictures of. from that fact, I can only assume you did not properly adjust the brackets. I'm sure you thought you had assembled the system properly, but the results speak otherwise.

I can sympathise with your situation, because I have also performed many experiments with new products, and...I sometimes broke stuff, then posted the results so that others could see the performance limits of the parts. I'm a firm believer in free speech (notice your posts haven't been taken down?), but...I also have that same freedom.

I hope things work out for you with the 60V chain-primary GNG, perhaps you will have better luck with it. However, I have a word of advice for you. If you send Jon Chan 505 emails, he will no longer respond or sell parts to you. I'm not trying to be mean or petty to you, but I do want to be clear about what happened and how the current situation resulted.

 

[stocaz]

great great design
with this new VERSION THERE ARE NO MORE PROBLEM of bending and torsion like the old sheet frame, i see.
and it's cheap

Haha dont think there will be no more problems. About have the kit is good and the other half needs to be replaced. Plus they increased their price by about $100
Jon also is a terrible seller to deal with when it comes to communication

100 usd more? sorry but it's almost the same price as before.. changing a chain and a sprocket is not HALF the kit, this is not true..you can check what others did on this kit on this thread!
my friend took it and had no problems with Jon..what problems did you report?

 

[emaayan]

from my understanding the following issues have been reported with gng generations

* phanpy freewheel destroyed
* the shaft in the jackshaft being twisted
* driven chain tensioner too loose
* tensioner in general may cause power waste.
* belt version had too narrow belt and in itself was tensioned properly
* the sheets would twist.
* the drive will not attach properly to the frame.

unfortunately we don't have any particular "delta" analasys on the current version vs the previous ones. so i for one can't really tell which parts may be at fault right now. nor do i know at what stress level they will brake. for example is the shaft any different then before ? (i.e thicker stronger) is it installed any differently?
from what i see creating an integrated sheet as part as motor casing and placing it horizontally should definetly make it stronger. as for the lower sheets i don't know how they differ from the previous versions.

different people may have different requirements at differently power levels, one may not care about the noise, another about the tensioner, and a third about 4500 watts they can use it. so i'm not really sure what would the "main stream" of usage of this kit at this current version.

my requirements have not been changed, i would like mid-drive kit that can handle 1500-2000 watts, run at around 50+kph, not overheat with a usage of 30wh (which is what i have today)and be able to use the full range of my gears, (actually it would make much more sense if it would max out at gear 6 as that's the gear you run at riding plain level), i will accept a wear and tear and a yearly frequency and that they should be able to be easily obtained off the shelf and not cost arm and a leg. (i.e custom cnc's parts)
bonus points for being able to run a thun torque sensor. least of priorities is noise (unless you can prove it actually damages my hearing)

as for jon, my only problem so far that he's is not answering some of my questions (while answering others) and the fact that i still can't post in his forum for some reason (anyone else got that?), he's a REALLY eager to sell, as in i got a paypal payment request right after my initial query, and he showed me the invoice and both packages before they were closed and shipped for my confirmation.
however it maybe that these are theoretical questions, i don't know how he would respond if i actually would ask him to send me parts.

i don't know anything about him , is he the designer? a one man company? does he participate in e-s ?

 

[dusan]

great great design
with this new VERSION THERE ARE NO MORE PROBLEM of bending and torsion like the old sheet frame, i see.
and it's cheap

Haha dont think there will be no more problems. About have the kit is good and the other half needs to be replaced. Plus they increased their price by about $100
Jon also is a terrible seller to deal with when it comes to communication

100 usd more? sorry but it's almost the same price as before.. changing a chain and a sprocket is not HALF the kit, this is not true..you can check what others did on this kit on this thread!
my friend took it and had no problems with Jon..what problems did you report?

I could pretty agree with ebike11, similar experiences with Jon and kit.

I would say, Jon is just seller. That's it.
Kit comes with new crankset, probably only usable with square bottom bracket, freewheel seems to be mounted directly on BB.
Jackshaft as part of motor cooling, I am not sure but you will be no more able to slightly shift it.

I changed almost half of kit, and I am happy. I still can do upgrades.
Actually there is not final stage end user option.

Specifically, you don't have in market something similar to regular bike but with e-support, otherwise it will be humanoid, probably from darpa.
Most kits are seem to be suited for flat road or extremely strong.
For good performance you need,
- 64mm and 104mm BCD + bottom bracket with low Q-factor
- inteligent controller to rationally support your pedaling
- small, safe battery to fit bike weight around 20kg

 

[stocaz]

Not fair.
Gng never sold writing " you can go at 1000w"
in any case this kit is made better, and at 1000/1300W i've seen no problem yet with my friend
You can't complain i f you go at 2000 w..we have to be clear!

 

[emaayan]

Not fair.
Gng never sold writing " you can go at 1000w"
in any case this kit is made better, and at 1000/1300W i've seen no problem yet with my friend
You can't complain i f you go at 2000 w..we have to be clear!

dammit! you bit me to it, i was just in the middle of writing the exact same thing

btw , finally got my refund from mike, guess someone finally got through to him, or he's silently reading this thread, so that's closure. (just had to mention it)

anyway you can only say this kit is crap if it brakes shortly at the specified power level, so if MOST people run it at 700w and it brakes for MOST people after 6 weeks. then that's bad. i'm gonna try running it with the default setting first. see how that goes hell ,if i hear that bafang reaches 53 kph at 750w why shouldn't this one do the same (mean while ecospeed doesn't reach 40 kph at 1300w, so WTH?)
but if i decide to run it at 1500, i'm not gonna blame it on the kit, and neither should anyone else.

 

[r3volved]

My GnG 1.1 does 55kph @ 1500W, 16t rear sprocket (48v lifepo4). Belt wears every 300km or so in the cold. No other issues after a few hacks.

Make sure they haven't changed the motor kV or the reduction and the new kit should perform as well.

 

[emaayan]

My GnG 1.1 does 55kph @ 1500W, 16t rear sprocket (48v lifepo4). Belt wears every 300km or so in the cold. No other issues after a few hacks.

Make sure they haven't changed the motor kV or the reduction and the new kit should perform as well.

, wow good thing i got the chain version i do 350 km each month, although i recall the original belt was 8mm and the current one is 20.

do you happen to know what kind of chain the primary drive is using? i mean it would that a 219 kart chain i have on the left can fit there as well

 

[lantice13]

My GnG 1.1 does 55kph @ 1500W, 16t rear sprocket (48v lifepo4). Belt wears every 300km or so in the cold. No other issues after a few hacks.

Make sure they haven't changed the motor kV or the reduction and the new kit should perform as well.

They had upgraded the belt version too to a wider one. It still have that crappy ideler though which I think will rub more power out of the motor.don't really like changing belt every few hundred miles, it's like a ticking time bomb.... never now when it will snap at ya. This is one of the reason I got this chain primary version.