New member intro, E-cargo bike pics, and dumb questions

[DaisyDela]

Hey everyone-

Thanks for all the great input and information. A lot of the technical info about batteries, wiring, and electronics is over my head. Reading and learning though.





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New member and E-Cargo bike owner I've attached a few pics of the Yuba Mundo with an E-bikekit.com 350W geared front hub conversion.



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I'm perhaps a bit different from most e-bike owners in that I'm a cyclist first and E-bike owner second. I've logged well over 100,000 miles by bike in 20+ of riding, commuting, racing, touring, etc. We love bikes and ride them all the time. We currently have one e-bike and about 15 or so other bikes.





I got my Yuba Mundo about a year ago and was totally opposed to the electric assist at first. As an avid cyclist, I figured I'd just muscle the thing around. I changed my mind about electric assist for the cargo bike when hauling around big loads after already doing my recreational 2-5+ hour rides. Although I could ride everywhere, getting started or hauling groceries uphill on a 60 pound bike was hard with tired legs and knees. Plus, I also ride around on the Yuba with Daisy, our springer spaniel. Prior to making her a dog carrier for the Yuba, I found myself driving to places just so that I could take her (and driving to go for a trail run is kind of ridiculous). The e-assist allows me extra "range" for running errands on the cargo bike, and taking Daisy along for the ride. There is never a time I'm not pedalling the bike, though. It is a bike and not a motorcycle, after all.






Since this is my first e-bike, I have nothing to compare it to. The e-bikekit.com conversion kit is fairly easy to install (although I've worked as a bike mechanic before). The motor will run at about 29MPH without load. I've had it up to 22+ mph riding with my dog and panniers as a quick test without pedaling. Fully outfitted as a cargo bike, the Yuba Mundo is about as aero as a brick. I've only not pedaled it for a couple blocks. Otherwise I'm probably putting out 150-200+ watts continuously through pedaling. I only have about 100 miles on the E-bikekit.com conversion kit. So far so good. I seem to be getting 50+ miles per charge on it on my 48V 13aH battery. I'll have a better idea after a few more charges. Seems like I use the e-assist about 25% of the time in getting up to speed, accelerating from stop lights and stiop signs, and climbing hills. Once the cargo bike is up to speed at 16-20mph, it's pretty easy to keep it rolling along. The e-bikekit really needs some sort of electronics to be able to measure battery life and usage, but that's a whole other topic.

We are in Northern California (Marin County), where bicycles are plentiful and there are tons of cyclists. Cargo/utility bikes are getting more popular every month, and e-assist is getting more popular for people hauling stuff around on their bikes. We are going to get a second cargo bike with an E-assist as well. My lovely other half and I are in competition for the cargo bike. The next one will be a Dutch style bakfiets (a Harry vs Larry), with e-assist as well.

That's all for now. Dumb questions in a later post.

 

[ohzee]

Looking good.. Love the little doggy setup. I have a yuba as well and never thought about doing that.

My pooch would sure love it , but keeping him in is another issue.

Welcome to the club. Id say biking by whatever means beats the alternative.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Welcome! Thanks for posting, the more of these around the better. If your significant other is looking for a Christmas gift for the E-biker who seems to have everything, perhaps consider a thudbuster seatpost...

 

[dogman dan]

Nicely done, even if underdone by typical ES hot rod standards.

I think you'll fit in just fine here. My new girl in the pack is named Daisy. I've put in a few miles of pedaling too and love to pedal, but I also rode motorcycles a lot, and never objected one second to the idea of a helper motor.

Soon of course, it was bikes that don't require any pedaling though. All in good fun.

Welcome to the club. Ask all the noob questions you want, after a look at the wiki and the battery FAQ thread.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Welcome to the forum, and nice bike.

If I may point out, your motor is on upside down.
The wire should exit down, then come back up the fork forming whats called a "Drip ring". Otherwise, rain droplets will collect on the outside of the wire, and run down the wire into the motor. There is no way for the water to exit the motor then. When you have a drip ring, water runs down to the lowest point, and harmlessly drips off the bike.

 

[dogman dan]

Good eyes Ypedal. Yup. The desert where I live, I could leave it that way. But I still run a drip loop on my bikes for the puddles from lawn watering in the street.

Here's my Daisy. I make her run beside the bike, for about a block, to where she can chase rabbits.

 

[BikeFanatic]

Nice bike, dog seems mellow enough to ride in the rear.

I forgot what your question was? No dumb questions around here. I would suggest that you charge your battery more frequently if it is a LIFEPO battery with BMS as they can get unbalanced if you over discharge them , or if the battery management system drains a cell from inactivity ( inactivity I mean mot using the battery all the time).
I am assuming your 50 mile range is charging say once a week.

You should consider a Cycle analyst. It is costly but I didnt know I needed one until I got one . You could get one second hand also , post in Items wanted, since they are coming out with a new version I suspect you could obtain the previous version for half price.
\
Have fun out there. I rode my cargo Ebike in the snow and slush yestrrday, nice to have the motor, but not as much fun as California this time of year.

 

[Alastor]

That is just awesome dude the girly has her own carpet as well to be comfortable and all You made me think of an idea of making something in order to have my little fluffy with me on my rides

 

[amberwolf]

I like the bike, especially the puppy pod.

Looking good.. Love the little doggy setup. I have a yuba as well and never thought about doing that.

My pooch would sure love it , but keeping him in is another issue..

Add a ring at the bottom center of the puppy pod, and clip a leash to it that is short enough the dog can only sit straight up with it on, and cannot sit up paws off ground. Will still be comfy, and allow laying down, but not allow jumping out of the pod.

It's common in various kkinds of pet carriers, and is what I did with Hachi when she was still small enough to ride in the one on DayGlo Avenger:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=257875#p257875

Now she's so big has to ride in a trailer. :lol:

 

[DaisyDela]

Thanks the replies everyone!

And thanks for the keen eye on the drip loop. I never considered that but have used them for house wiring. I actually thought the notch in the axle was to help the wiring get an easier bend back to the fork. I'll rotate the hub and get a drip loop in. I'll also order the Cycle Analyst, which I've been musing over anyway.

I've spent hours on here reading some of the Wiki and FAQ. I know bikes (former shop mechanic), but the battery technology and electronics wiring is pretty esoteric for me. It's the people on this forum who are pushing the boundaries of Electric transportation, and bringing it into the mainstream. Pretty amazing stuff to me really.

Daisy (our dog) is a trail/snow/surf/ski dog. She's been riding on stuff since she was a pup. She started riding on the bike in a messenger bag when she was tiny. I bought a Burley trailer for her years ago, but it's cumbersome. The next bike will be a bakfiets so that Daisy can ride up front. She is so good that I don't need to secure her in the bike. She hops right up for the ride. Every time we stop, her tail starts going. Plus she loves the attention and snacks she gets. She wants to be anywhere we are.








Okay, here are my noob questions that I couldn't find an answer for so far.

Charging the battery- My inclination is to run the LiFePo battery empty before recharging it. Someone mentioned that I should charge it more frequently? Someone may have written a "Care and Feeding of your Freaking Expensive Battery" post. I haven't found it yet.

I'm already thinking about my next e-bike setup since we are ordering the bakfiets (dutch cargo bike) in a few weeks. I don't need high top end speed (22-24mph is perfect). What we need, since it's a cargo bike and we live in a hilly area is low end torque for starting and getting up to speed. I'm thinking that a BMC V2T geared hub motor with a 48V LiFePo battery and 500-600W controller is about right for us.

I'm still a bit unclear about the relationship between Battery Volts (36V, 48V, etc), motor wattage, and controller wattage. Anyone know is there is a "Batteries, Controllers, and Motor wattage for Dummies" post or FAQ? I'm pretty good on the geared vs. direct drive thing.

Does the controller determine wattage? From what I understand, the controller takes input from the throttle and relays power from the battery to the motor. Aside from that, it's a mystery box to me.

Also, since I'm considering a BMC geared hub for my next bike, are there any recommended dealers to get a hub/wheel and controller to spec? I'm not talented enough to build anything myself.

Thanks everyone. This has been a great resource for me. Now that I have the e-assist, I can't believe I waited this long.

 

[mabman]

Like yourself I am primarily a cyclist and mainly a mtb one at that. But 12 years ago I got into trying various motor systems both gas and electric as a way to get away from the car as much as possible. To be quite frank and realizing that this is an electric bike forum I would probably run a 4cycle gas engine in the 35cc class if there was any type of gear reduction transmission available that worked.

I am in the process of setting up a Yuba with a GNG mid drive mated to a 48v 12ah battery (there is a large thread concerning these in the non hub section). The reason I like mid drive for cargoing around is that it allows you to utilize your gearing, and with the right system like the GNG you can pedal away at your own cadence and feed power to the drivetrain as necessary. A mid drive centralizes the extra weight also which is a better solution for weight bias. It may be that you won't be able to adapt one however to the Bakviet you have planned but it will work on your Yuba and you could put it on there and use your existing system on the new bike perhaps.

The beauty of a mid drive as a cyclist is that you can readily feel the coordination of your cadence and the motor input. As you say once you get rolling you need less power from the motor and it is hard to explain but a mid drive just feels more intuitive than a hub motor to me and one like the GNG has less drag than a direct drive while running without the motor also. Geared drive of course doesn't have the drag issue, as much, but hub motors are like single speeds in function I find and I much prefer being able to work the motor through the drivetrain.

Anyway welcome to the club.

 

[amberwolf]

I'll also order the Cycle Analyst, which I've been musing over anyway.

If you get the V3, and the Thun sensor, you can also setup the bike as a true pedalec, where your pedalling power is simply amplified by the motor. See this (long) thread for it's evolution/testing, but the ebikes.ca site should have good explanations of how it works, too, once it is finalized. (it's in the last stages of beta testing now).
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37964

The next bike will be a bakfiets so that Daisy can ride up front.

Should work well; I have a Loooooooongbike that is in design stage right now, to haul the dogs or their food (or both).
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43328

She is so good that I don't need to secure her in the bike. She hops right up for the ride. Every time we stop, her tail starts going. Plus she loves the attention and snacks she gets. She wants to be anywhere we are.

Sounds like Hachi. :lol: (and Nana, but she gets easily distracted and has "selective hearing")

Charging the battery- My inclination is to run the LiFePo battery empty before recharging it. Someone mentioned that I should charge it more frequently? Someone may have written a "Care and Feeding of your Freaking Expensive Battery" post. I haven't found it yet.

this one might have some info for you
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2498
as A123 is LiFePO4, just one with better power delivery than the rest.
This one is about a different kind of cell
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=27707
but may have info for you too.

However, in general, I'd recommend at least keeping it half-charged all the time. I have a well-used Vpower pack, and it works ok, but I'd definitely rather keep it at least half-charged than run it down and recharge all teh way, every time--mostly because these multi-cell packs can have some cells taht are lower capacity than other cells, and running ii tdown to cutoff could give you a surprise at some point, leaving you without the power assist you really wish you had with a big load on the bike and that big hill ahead of you.

OTOH, if you do run it down each time, and you have a CA or other wattmeter on it, you can keep track of it's gradual capacity loss over time, and probably be able to detect a problem with it before it dies on you. (though checking at cell level, such as with cell-logs while riding and/or charging would do more for this type of checking). Usually, this kind of hting is unnecssary, but it can be helpful if a problem does arise.

I'm already thinking about my next e-bike setup since we are ordering the bakfiets (dutch cargo bike) in a few weeks. I don't need high top end speed (22-24mph is perfect). What we need, since it's a cargo bike and we live in a hilly area is low end torque for starting and getting up to speed. I'm thinking that a BMC V2T geared hub motor with a 48V LiFePo battery and 500-600W controller is about right for us.

I don't know the BMC personally yet, but read good enough things about it mostly. I use the Fusin geared motors (mostly because I got one cheap used from Dogman, and teh rest as donations or review kit from Fusin themselves), like this one:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39877
which is their latest. So far the motor and controller have been running fine for nearly 500 miles (though I have been lax in updating the thread). It has not yet seen use on the cargo bike, as I promised to give it at least 500 miles on a "normal" bike first.

However...what I think you would really want is a system like the UrbanCommuter middrive, since it goes thru the gears of the bike and is probably more efficient for hills and such. Some threads for it:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37741
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=42509
http://urbancommuterstore.com/M-Drive-Conversion-Kit-for-Yuba-Mundo-V33-V4-YM-MDRIVEKIT.htm
and Ohzee
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=21350
had one at one time, I forget what state it's in right now.

You might be able to use the UC drive on a bakfiets, too, depending on the frame design. Or have one modified to work.


Stokemonkey by Clevercycles would be my other recommendation, but I don't know if they have ever restarted production on them.

I'm still a bit unclear about the relationship between Battery Volts (36V, 48V, etc), motor wattage, and controller wattage. Anyone know is there is a "Batteries, Controllers, and Motor wattage for Dummies" post or FAQ?

There are a few of this kind of thread, but not directly named as such, exactly. Sorry I don't have a link to any ATM. The wiki is still under construction, added to as time permits and people can, so if you happen to find the info you need, please do add it in there.

Essentially, the higher your volts, the faster you can go (given the same motor winding), and the less current the system will have to draw from teh battery to create the same power.

Controller wattage usually simply means that it can survive without overheating at that continuous wattage, and often can survive short bursts of much higher wattage. Same with a motor. My "500W" 9C motor easily works at 700-1000W for long periods, minutes at a time (and probably a lot longer if the portions of my rides needing that power were longer). It takes 3000-4000W for short bursts of a few seconds during acceleration (which is 0-20MPH in 4 seconds, presently, on teh CrazyiBiike2 cargo bike).

Contrtoller Amps means the max current the controller will draw continously from the battery. So if you have a battery that can handle 1C continous (typical of LiFePO4 batteries, and 2C-3C bursts), and it is a 20Ah battery, you could draw 20A continous. if its'a 1.5C battery, at 20Ah capacity, that would be 30A continuous. A 10Ah capacity at 1C is only 10A continous. So on the first battery, 1C 20Ah, you would only want a 20A controller. A 30A controller could be used on the second, 1.5C 20Ah battery. Only a 10A controller would be desirable on the 3rd.

Also, since I'm considering a BMC geared hub for my next bike, are there any recommended dealers to get a hub/wheel and controller to spec? I'm not talented enough to build anything myself.

Ebikes.ca, if they have those motors. Or buy the motor and send it to JohnRobHolmes, if you don't build wheels yourself. (if you're a bike mechanic, I'd assume you can easily build good wheels, but if you can't he'd be my first recommendation here on ES).

Now that I have the e-assist, I can't believe I waited this long.

That's what everyone says. :lol:

I went electrci because of my knees, and bikes *are* my transportation. It was that or get a powerchair. (though I have two of those, too, now. :lol: ) As tehy got worse, I have mostly stopped pedalling, depending on what I am doing and the weather, and how bad they are that day. I miss the regular plain old bike rides, but I just can't go very long or far on them now.

 

[dogman dan]

Charge all kinds of batteries at every opportunity.

Run em dead for longer lifespan is an old bogus nicad myth. Lifepo4 is often specified to go about 1000 100% depth of discharge cycles. If you discharge 50%, you might get more than 2000 cycles though!!!!

But in real world use, somewhere between 500-1000 cycles is more likely. That 1000 cycles test is a single cell, discharged at a trickle. You have at least 30 or more cells, and the discharge is no trickle. One cell dies before 1000 cycles in most cases. It's just odds that one cell in the pack is not perfect.

The rule of thumb is discharge no more than 80% if you can do that conveniently. But don't hesitate to run it till the bms shuts it off if you must. No need to pedal up steep hills if there is some battery left.