New Panasonic Cell ncr18650bd 3200mah

[okashira]

The lower performance of the PF compared to the PD at high current could be explained by the addition of this fuse you refer to.

EDIT: well, tests show the PF outperforms at high amps, (10A) PD slighly outperforms at 3A and they are very similar at low current (0.2A)
WTFknows.
This whole "B grade A grade" BS really makes comparisons difficult

Generally Panasonic reserves their "NNP" terminology for NCA chemistry cells. Do you have a link to this document?

Yes very small variations may be usual production spread, measurement/charge uncertainties, age.... coffee cup reading.
So PF is most likely still the same NNP chemistry with small fuse improvements etc.

Documents about the Panasonic NNP / NCR NiCoAl evolution:

http://www.embedded-world.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/batterie2011/Sonnemann_Panasonic.pdf (many details)
http://www.yeint.fi/pr/pr/files/li_ion_akut.pdf
http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf2/ACI4000/ACI4000CE17.pdf

Thus Nickel is the main key to these new high cap frontiers ("Solid Solution among LiNiO2 enables High Capacity"). LG Chem names the chemistry of similar types (LG MH1, LG HE2) as "Ni-rich".
And a so called HRL (heat resistance layer) - in Panasonic wording - was the main key to enable such high energy densities for safe commercial use. Al adds to thermal safety, and Co as before to durability.
After all the precise chemistries and layering details are rather complicated and advanced today.
The new early CID fuse tripping feature may be a chemical which produces lot of gas beyond 4.5v or so quickly raising the pressure which trips the CID early; not consuming significant extra space.

The new NCR18650BF seems to be the first cell which has now a improvement from the plain graphite anode by adding SiO - as announced in that 2011 document. A real improvement of the NCR B high cap cell.

member fellow says he discharged his PF's to 0V, kept them there for a week, and they came back OK.
Surely NCA can't handle that?

Well, overdischarge below 2V mainly attacks the Graphite anode, not so much the (LiCo, LiMn, NMC, NCA..) cathode: When all Li is gone out of the graphite, the graphite contacting metal will be oxidized -> increase of Ri, spoiling of electrolyte, thus increase of future self-discharge, later deposition of the dissolved metal and formation of dendrites, increased danger of internal shurtcuts even if the cell can be recharge firstly, ... Possible improvements of stability here (Does the PD vs PF really not "survive" with similar rates?) may be independent of cathode questions. Cathode is more exposed to stress upon overcharge and high discharge currents.
Yet its generally not allowed officially to recharge LiIon's from below 2V. Valid BMS'es shall go into permanent failure state once a cell is below 2.0v, not allowing recharge. For some cells "pre-charge" at low currents is allowed from 2.0v .. 2.5v (with subsequent self-discharge test).

I have seen most of what you linked...

take aways:
PSS = Lithium Manganese Hybrid (old, Panasonic doesn't market anymore)
NNP = New Nickel Platform aka NCA
NCA goes to lower voltage on discharge then NCO
NCA is WAY better at high temperature in terms of calendar life then NCO
(We know that NCO is much better then NCM and Li - Fe Phosphate per Youtube presentation I posted a while back, thus NCA should be far superior then both.)

BTW, Fasttech sells the NCR18650BF, branded by Sanyo. I know dampfakkus tested them and they were inferior to the B. But I am guessing they were rejects.

 

[x-speed]

Cmon man... we have already been through this...

This is a NCR BE original spec from manufacturer.
Sellers indeed varied, and as far as I have seen discussion remained rather indirect about what really is in relabels and errors of dampfakkus measurements.
High drain usability would have been interesting at that price.

 

[okashira]

Cmon man... we have already been through this...

This is a NCR BE original spec from manufacturer.
Sellers indeed varied, and as far as I have seen discussion remained rather indirect about what really is in relabels and errors of dampfakkus measurements.
High drain usability would have been interesting at that price.

If you want to disagree with what we have already agreed upon (that the BE seems to be a the Model S cell, and is good to 20A in bursts, 10A continuous)
Then you need to post something to substantiate your claim. What you posted is just a crappy scan from a vendor that we have already seen.
All the tests show good performance at 15A

 

[x-speed]

This is a NCR BE original spec from manufacturer.
Sellers indeed varied, and as far as I have seen discussion remained rather indirect about what really is in relabels and errors of dampfakkus measurements.
High drain usability would have been interesting at that price.

If you want to disagree with what we have already agreed upon (that the BE seems to be a the Model S cell, and is good to 20A in bursts, 10A continuous)
Then you need to post something to substantiate your claim. What you posted is just a crappy scan from a vendor that we have already seen.
All the tests show good performance at 15A

Where did you see this? Its directly from an original Sanyo/Panasonic document. Look again at the bottom. I asked for all documents for purchase. "3.6A" stopped the show.
The logic about cell top styles (PF e.g. exists also in 2 variants), Model S, whats really inside which relabel etc is to vague for me.
Vice versa I'd need a proof that despite the definite original spec the BE are (regularly) able to handle 10A - without getting significantly hotter a e.g. NCR PF, and have good cycle life at some 6A.
BTW: The NCR BE cycle life spec: >=75% @ 300 Cycles 1C discharge, 0.3C charge.
Quite any cell without PCB can do short 20A bursts for some time.

 

[Cashew]

This tread : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=64025
Video is really worth watching , and answers some of your questions.

Tesla was really a great Inventor
This Car is nothing new like AC ,or so, and boring. Just another stupid rich peoples car.
How many "Teslars" are out there. I really do not think we are only getting B C D class cells. They are used in so many other things.
Don’t get me wrong I only think this car got the wrong name.
I got some stupid motorcycels and like them...

 

[okashira]

This is a NCR BE original spec from manufacturer.
Sellers indeed varied, and as far as I have seen discussion remained rather indirect about what really is in relabels and errors of dampfakkus measurements.
High drain usability would have been interesting at that price.

If you want to disagree with what we have already agreed upon (that the BE seems to be a the Model S cell, and is good to 20A in bursts, 10A continuous)
Then you need to post something to substantiate your claim. What you posted is just a crappy scan from a vendor that we have already seen.
All the tests show good performance at 15A

Where did you see this? Its directly from an original Sanyo/Panasonic document. Look again at the bottom. I asked for all documents for purchase. "3.6A" stopped the show.
The logic about cell top styles (PF e.g. exists also in 2 variants), Model S, whats really inside which relabel etc is to vague for me.
Vice versa I'd need a proof that despite the definite original spec the BE are (regularly) able to handle 10A - without getting significantly hotter a e.g. NCR PF, and have good cycle life at some 6A.
BTW: The NCR BE cycle life spec: >=75% @ 300 Cycles 1C discharge, 0.3C charge.
Quite any cell without PCB can do short 20A bursts for some time.

So wait for my cells to come in. I have BD's PF's and BE's coming from fast-tech. I will do a direct comparison.

 

[okashira]

This tread : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=64025
Video is really worth watching , and answers some of your questions.

Tesla was really a great Inventor
This Car is nothing new like AC ,or so, and boring. Just another stupid rich peoples car.
How many "Teslars" are out there. I really do not think we are only getting B C D class cells. They are used in so many other things.
Don’t get me wrong I only think this car got the wrong name.
I got some stupid motorcycels and like them...

Yeah, I posted that vid in this thread.
That is where I leaned that NCO is better then NCM and Li- Iron Phosphate if you care about calendar life.
it's sad the Leaf, Volt, BMW i3, ActiveE, i8... all use NCM.
And he mentions NCA but doesn't show any data
We know NCA is light years better then NCO too.

I disagree on your second note. The cells are not used in other places. You will never find Panasonic NCA cells in a laptop battery. Power tools are usually Samsung, etc. I found one aftermarket vendor that uses Panny cells in upgraded aftermarket packs.
How many Tesla's? are you kidding. Try, 50,000+. 130,000 by 1 year from now.
That's 950,000,000 cells. Enough for Panny to make Tesla their own chemistry/production line.

 

[Cashew]

Thank you. I like to be corrected, if I am wrong. And Thank you for all your informations.
Still got so much to learn.
I still hope you are not absolutely right, Panasonic is also not so small.
“Unlike automotive cells, these cells are produced in the billions”
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084682_what-goes-into-a-tesla-model-s-battery--and-what-it-may-cost
I hope somebody some day, opens up one cell, and test it complete, to end this speculations.

 

[ricklearned]

This tread : http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=64025
Video is really worth watching , and answers some of your questions.

Tesla was really a great Inventor
This Car is nothing new like AC ,or so, and boring. Just another stupid rich peoples car.
How many "Teslars" are out there. I really do not think we are only getting B C D class cells. They are used in so many other things.
Don’t get me wrong I only think this car got the wrong name.
I got some stupid motorcycels and like them...

........
How many Tesla's? are you kidding. Try, 50,000+. 130,000 by 1 year from now.
That's 950,000,000 cells. Enough for Panny to make Tesla their own chemistry/production line.

Information from some of the Tesla sites suggest that the cells used by Tesla have a slightly different chemistry and they eliminate an internal part.

 

[MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER]

What do you recommended guys: NCR18650PF or 18650-25R?

Thanks 8)

 

[zener]

What do you recommended guys: NCR18650PF or 18650-25R?

Thanks 8)

Gasoline from crude oil. :x
LG HE4 the new not so new HE2 ? :|

 

[MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER]

Hahaha thanks 8)

I have read good things about 18650PF (lifetime).
But I prefer more 25R (if I use at current (will this expand lifetime?)

 

[zener]

But I prefer more 25R (if I use at current (will this expand lifetime?)

Using only few current while charge not more 4V and store with 20%SOC in refrigerator will get you about 8 years.

 

[MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER]

Thanks you!

And what about the discharge voltage for a good lifetime?
Also NCA is better than NCM?
8)

 

[riba2233]

Samsung 25r is nca. But depends on your need for current, panasonics are cheaper, and has better energy density, so unless you really need bigger current, go for pf.

 

[cwah]

isn't the ncr18650bd better than pf?

 

[riba2233]

In capacity yes, in current no. BE is better in capacity, but has same current capability. But costs more.

 

[MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER]

Samsung 25r is nca. But depends on your need for current, panasonics are cheaper, and has better energy density, so unless you really need bigger current, go for pf.

Thanks 8)

Currently I don't need those big currents, but it is good to have it when upgrading parts. Panasonic are also NCA?

Whick batteries are ncm? NCM is better then NCA?

 

[riba2233]

Yes, panasonic are nca. Ncm are some older panasonics, sony's, some lg, some samsung.

I would say that nca has more advantages.

If you really don't need large currents, and that means more than 10A per cell, go for PF. If you want to add more power to your system later, just add more cells in series.

 

[cwah]

pf better than bd even for low power ebike? like 1C discharge

 

[jk1]

What cells could be inside dewalts latest 40v 6ah batteries ?

They must be 3ah each but also high discharge ?

http://www.dewalt.com/tools/outdoor-power-equipment-dcbl790h1.aspx

 

[riba2233]

pf better than bd even for low power ebike? like 1C discharge

On 1c bd is better.

http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkuvergleich.php?akku1=498&akku2=545&akku3=&akku4=&akku5=&akku6=&a=3

But that's it, over 1c bd starts to sag more.


Those dewalt batteries are probably 3p, so 2ah per cell

 

[ridethelightning]

What cells could be inside dewalts latest 40v 6ah batteries ?

They must be 3ah each but also high discharge ?

http://www.dewalt.com/tools/outdoor-power-equipment-dcbl790h1.aspx

-interesting speculation, good place to look for good cells, only finding out exactly the cell type used may not be easy..i imagine opening up a dewalt pack only to find secretive blanc cans....

btw guys, was interested in comparing the power cells vs capacity cells, 25r vs 29e fr eg.

is it really worth going for the higher capacity , as unless you have a really large pack, id imagine the total watt-hours youd get wouldnt add up to the cells spec at any sort of power levels anyway due to higher ir....
anyone able to offer any real world comparison e-bike experience?

 

[riba2233]

Higher and lower ir doesn't mean anything if you optimize you system. If you need large current, you don't have much choice, but if you don't need it, you will profit from higher capacity and lower cost.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

I'm thinking of using these BD's to build a 15s6p pack for my recumbent.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=57751#p899059

The most I will draw is around 30-35A, but usually it will be less than 15 and closer to 10 at cruise. I think the BD will be perfect for this as it will give me about 1Kwh and I plan to slip it all inside the frame, so completely hidden.

Only problem at this stage is price. I need to get them for less than $6-7 per cell in spot welded series rows. I will be buying in the new year. Anyone know a place these can be found for that price range that includes spot welding, and reasonable shipping price?

Cheers