Newbie - bike upgrade advice please ping 24V 15Ah

[WA ebiker]

Hi All,

Newbie to this forum so take it easy on my please

I have owned an ebike for about 5yrs now. It's called the Emaxi Swift which can be seen at this link:
http://emaxi.ideation.com.tw/swift.html
However, my Emaxi Swift only has the 200W brushless motor though as that is the legal limit in Australia - and it doesn't have the rear carrier rack on the back.
It's a 24V 12Ahr SLA setup.
Over the 5yrs I have gone through numerous SLA batteries as they die on me pretty quick. So the bike has sat there for a couple of years with dead batteries.

Time to leave SLA's behind me so i have just ordered an 24V 15Ah LiFePO4 battery from Ping.

Question#1:
My first question is what mileage I can expect approximately from this battery and whether or not to change my order to the 24V 20Ah LiFePO4 battery from Ping??
-I weigh only 62kg (136lbs). The bike is rather heavy as it's steel approx 30kg (66lbs). The 15Ah ping battery weighs 3.7kg (8lbs) = total weight of 210lbs.
-I have a stuffed left hip so I cannot pedal very much. I cannot pedal at all with my left leg so that hangs off the side and sits on a peg. I can pedal a little with my right leg down hill and on flat ground as I use clipons with the one leg.
-It is reasonably hilly along the Perth Australia coastline where I intend to ride but not overly hilly.
-My goal is to have a total range of 20miles maximum on a single charge.
(to give you an idea, my old setup with 24A12Ah SLA's gave me about 20km's max (13miles) with a bit of pedal assist from myself)

I will typically do lots of shorter rides to check out the surf but would like to have the range to go 20miles if I had to.
Would I be able to get 20miles from the 15Ah battery that i have ordered or should I change my order to the 20Ah?

Question#2:
The old SLA battery pack had a rough as guts battery meter on the side consisting of 3 LED's. This gave me an idea of how stuffed the batteries were.
My new setup with a Ping battery and BMS will have no battery monitor. Can you please recommend a battery monitor that could tell me how much charge i have left in the battery?
I would put a disclaimer on this that it would have to be pretty basic to setup as i don't have much electrical knowledge in this area. Can you explaing briefly how easy these are to setup and connect to the battery please?

Question#3:
The Emaxi Swift as noted in the link above simply has the 200W chain drive motor, the batter pack, thumb throttle, and cables connecting all of these together including cables to the brake levers to tell the motor to turn off when the brakes are engaged. There is no actual controller or control box to the best of my knowledge.
My question is can I simply connect up my new ping batter when it arrives (modifying the connection obviously) to this system or does it require some kind of controller?? ie all I am doing is going to replace the 24V SLA battery pack with the new 24V LiFePO4 battery. Is that OK?

Question#4:
I am well aware of the limitations of my old ebike. It's a heavy stell bike with only 200W and only has a max'm speed of 27km/hr (17 mile/hr) on the flat. The LiFePO4 battery from ping will be a big improvement over the SLA's as it will be so much lighter.
The other question I am toying with is replacing the motor with the higher capacity motor eg 600W (http://www.nycewheels.com/lashout-electrec-currie-bike-motor.html) and then getting a bigger battery from Ping eg 36V20Ah.
This would be a lot more expensive though but would give me higher speeds. I'm thinking that I would be better off just doing the slight upgrade above and getting a whole new lighter bike in the future as it may be throwing good money after bad trying to upgrade this old bike too much.
Any comments welcome.

Thanks for you patience.

 

[dogman dan]

For the ping 36v packs, I have found a mile per AH is pretty close including a big reserve, but that may not work for a 24v pack that is 1/3 smaller for a given size.

A 24 ah sla pack would have about 12 ah of usable power in it, or maybe 15 ah for a deeper discharge. So the Ping 15 ah pack may be pretty close to having the same range, and maybe a bit more. There will be some gain from being lighter, especially for hill climbing. But for a really reliable long range, a 20 ah ping pack would be better, and just about sure to be able to go 20 miles or possibly more.

There is a huge advantage to going to 20 ah, since the strain on each cell will be less, and the abilty to upgrade to more watts will be there for later. Remember that the ping may last you 10,000 miles or more. The bigger the pack the less likely it is to get the kind of wear and tear your sla's used to get.

Upgrading the wattage should be pretty easy, just replace the controller, but if you really plan on that, get a 36v controller, and buy the 36v 20 ah ping. The motors are generally all capable of at least 500- 800 watts, so a 36v 20 amp controller, and a 36v 20 amp hour battery would get you a lot more speed, and 20-25 miles of range.

Battery fuel guages don't work so good with lifepo4 though. With sla's the charge level meters measure voltage sag, that gradually increases with use. Lifepo4 is nearly without voltage sag, so the meter will only tell you it's low when it's too late. But it just depends on the meter. My fusin kit has a really good one, and the meter will start to give me info when I still have 1/3 left, but only when the motor is running. When I stop, it just goes back to reading full. Yours might be like that, or not. Others, with a light on the throttle that I have are useless.

Generally you just use an odometer, and with some experience, you will know how far to expect to go. Another reason to just buy the 20 ah pack, and have longer range.

Hope this helps.

 

[lesspedal]

Welcome wa
If you keep your 24v motor, the ping batt will be ok, you will probably need to change connectors of course.
Like dogman said, i would go for the 20ah,
If you upgrade to 36v, i would still go for 36v 20ah,
You can buy a cycle anylast from ebikes ca for about $200aud with shipping, among other things it tells you how many ah you have used out of the pack, with experience you will know how much you have left, you need the stand alone version, casa, it is connected between batts and controller/motor
Hope this helps.
Trev.

 

[WA ebiker]

Thankyou very much for the welcome and your replies.

I think that I will stay with the 24V but upgrade to the 20AH as you have suggested to improve my range. I have emailed Ping to see if it is OK to change my order. I have only just placed my order and Ping mentioned that it is a Chinese holiday over there so I think that it will be ok to change my order.

I have done some reading on the cycle analysis and it looks really good. I see that e-mtb sell them for $180AUD in Australia.

One question though. My ebike doesn't appear to have a controller, or if it has it must be inside the motor housing. The motor housing has thick black and red wires that go to the battery. The motor housing also has black wires going from the motor housing to the thumb throttle and to both of the brake levers. My understanding is that the motor shuts off if you depress either brake lever. Therefore for the cycle analysis would i simply install it between the battery and the motor housing assuming that there is some kind of controller within the motor housing??? It certainly doesn't have an external controller box that I see more recent ebikes with.

thanks

 

[deardancer3]

If you get the 15ah pack you will be happy. You will be VERY happy with the 20ah pack.
Yes you have a controller, but it is imbedded in the motor housing..

If you get a volt meter as a fuel gauge, it will work like an idiot light, it reads "all ok" or, "you should be really close to home by now".

For your situation, carry a charger with you on longer trips -- the impact of miscalculation is pretty big for you.

If you get a meter like a Watts up (about $60US) it helps in multiple ways:

Shows how much energy has been used--- very good gas gauge-- tells when to recharge.
shows how much power your are using this very second--- like a real time gas use gauge tells when to shift on a chain drive.
Shows low voltage and current voltage, good for troubleshooting problems.
Most folks helping you troubleshoot ebike problems will make very good recomendations when you have a meter to give them information. reduces down time, wrong guesses and swapping wrong parts.

All this also helps to reduce abuse on your battery, lengthening its lifetime.

since your new battery will most likely need some connector changes, now is the time to add the meter and get its approprioate connectors too. AH meters pay for themselves many times over.

Best

d

 

[spinningmagnets]

Would this be a "Currie-Drive" or a clone?

 

[WA ebiker]

thanks deardancer3, I have just ordered the cycle analyst from e-mtb ($180AUD + $20 delivery).

Now to find out where in Perth I can buy the appropriate connectors.....

spinningmagnets, my understanding is that this does use the Currie Drive motor but I may be mistaken.

regards,
WA

 

[Drunkskunk]

Welcome to the forum.

I recognise the motor on that bike and believe there is a 36 volt version as well as some higher wattage versions available. A couple of members here have even mounted 2 of the motors on there bike.
... can't seem to remember the original manufacturer of those motor's just now... hung over, not enough coffee yet.

with the battery, I would definatly go with the 20Ah.

 

[WA ebiker]

Yes, I have seen higher voltage versions of the same theme overseas. Newer models go by the name of "Lashout" and "Rayos" and are 600W.

Lashout:
http://www.electrikmotion.com/LashOutBikeMain.htm

Rayos:
http://www.electricrider.com/electrec/index.htm

I haven't come across a 36V version though....

As noted above I did consider upgrading the motor but think I will stay with the 200W motor and just upgrade the battery.

 

[WA ebiker]

just found the 36V version of the Lashout so you were correct:
http://www.nycewheels.com/lashout-electric-bike-36v.html

 

[julesa]

24V X 15Ah = 360 watt-hours, divided by 20 miles = 18 wh per mile.
24V X 20Ah = 480 watt hours, divided by 20 miles - 24 wh per mile.

Without pedaling I would think that 24 wh per mile figure is a more realistic target. My bike uses closer to 30 wh per mile. I can get it down to 25wh/m if I do a lot of pedaling. Your bike is probably more efficient than mine, though.

 

[tostino]

Just as a figure, from my last charge, my CA reads:
max speed: 46.4 mph (flat land max = 40)
average speed: 21.9 mph
wh used: 720
wh/mi: 27.8
miles travled: 24.86
max amps: 67.5

I really don't pedal much. My wh/mile isn't all that bad though, considering I have such a high amp limit, and I am not at all light on the throttle.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Its all in the wrist.
While I usualy cruise in the 25 to 30 Wh/Mi range, Its easy enough to ride in the 18Wh/mi range without peddaling at all. And if I realy get miserly and peddal a little to assist, 11-12Wh/mi is average, and I have done as little as 9 watts per mile. I'm riding 2.5" balloon tires and have a suspension that soaks up some of my efficancy too.

His 24v12ah SLA batteries going 13 miles is roughly 13Wh/mi.
Figuring on 60% usable range of the SLA, so 7 amps actuual.

 

[dnmun]

the rule of thumb is that you buy the biggest battery you can afford, and whatever is wasted is your luxury tax.

but you need to figure out first whether the pack you order will fit inside the frame where the current pack is, so get the exact figures for each size pack and give yourself at least 10mm over that to fit it, then make a carboard box of the same dimensions and try to fit the cardboard box in the frame.

 

[julesa]

Then fill the cardboard box with concrete.

 

[dogman dan]

Silly me, I assumed you had a hubmotor, and a seperate controller, so Ignore my comments about how much watts they can handle. I really don't know much about that type of motor, but in the archives, when more of them were being used, there may be some good info for you.

If you end up with a 15 ah ping, you could always get another one later and have huge range with 30 ah total. But ping is sureley going to be willing to change the order as long as it hasn't shipped.

 

[WA ebiker]

Hi guys,

Yes the battery will fit within the frame as I made a mock up out of plystyrene foam the other night.
Ping's battery info for the 24V 20AH:
Light Weight: 4.90 kg / 10.80 lbs
Small Size: 200x105x150 mm / 7.9x4.1x5.9 inches
for use on up to 450W motors
Extremely Safe Chemistry
Extraordinary Long Cycle Life
No Memory Effect

So having the battery on it's side the 105mm being the shortest side) it should fit nicely. Alternatively I can simply add a rear carrier rack and fix it on the back like so may other ebikes that I see. My preference however is the same location as the existing battery keep a lower center of gravity.

Regarding connectors for the wires for the battery and cycle analyst. Can I simply buy appropriate connectors from an electrical store or does it need to be a specialist ebike store?

thanks

 

[lesspedal]

I used anderson connectors, so have a lot of other guys here , you need to be good at soldering or use a proper crimping tool.
Available at andersonpower.com.au, in melbourne but very courteous and prompt mail service, search this forum or google anderson powerpoles for info on how to use them, the 30 amp ones will do the job.

With your ping battery, as with all lifepo4 batts, they need to be cycled when new, to balance cells.
Keep the first ten or so rides short ,mabe 10klms ,and easy on throttle and charge fully after each ride, charge overnight or at least 2 or 3 hrs after charge indicator goes green. Try to avoid low voltage cutoff [ lvc], caused by battery managment system [bms] will shut down battery if voltage sags to low if you pull to many amps.

 

[WA ebiker]

Thanks, I just ordered plenty of the 30A Anderson connectors and the crimping tool. This is getting rather exe

Thanks also for the heads up on taking it easy on the ping for the first ten or so cycles. I will definitely follow this advice.

cheers,

 

[dnmun]

the crimping tool is way luxe for just a few andersons. i found a contact in newark that sticks out the back of the plastic housing so it cana be mounted on a pcb, then you could solder your stranded wire leads on to that. i should buy some to test out.

newark stock 73m9177... 179, three different lengths and right angle

if someone does a newark order lemme know, i'll share shipping.

 

[WA ebiker]

thanks for all of your replies.

I was just reading the "Does you bike have a power button thread"...http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13422
I won't have power button once I get rid of my SLA pack as that is where the power button was.

Now that I am installing the 24V 20AH ping, cycle analyst and using Anderson connectors should I be including a power button. That thread above lost me a little bit given my basic knowledge and zero experience with electrical circuits.

Should I be installing a power button in this circuit?
Can it simply be soldered into the circuit?
Where should it go? (I'm assuming between the batter and the controller )
Do I require this pre-charge resistor or is this not a definite requirement?
If I do require the pre-charge resistor is this in series or parallel to the switch? (I came across a wiring diagram which had it in parallel which makes sense).
If I need one, can I buy a switch with a pre-charge resistor already installed?
Where can I buy the switch, just like a Dick Smith's or somewhere like that and do I ask for a 50A switch?

sorry for all the additional questions, but I think that this is the final piece of my puzzle!

 

[dnmun]

sometimes the cyclone kit has a switch on the throttle for the controller.

 

[WA ebiker]

Hi dnmun. I don't have a cyclone kit so I don't have a switch on the throttle for the controller.
My switch was on the SLA battery pack. Now that I have removed the battery pack I don't have a switch anymore unfortunately.

 

[lesspedal]

Maybe you could ,in the meantime, use the andersons as a switch, connect when your ready to go, pull apart if you need in an emergency.
Trev.
Btw, i noticed in your first post, you were thinking of upgrading to a lighter bike, if i were you i would keep your steel bike as it may be ideal if you ever went to a hub motor. myself, i would not be to keen on bolting a hub motor to alloy drop outs.

 

[docnjoj]

Since I am no electrics expert, I have been using a regular wall type light switch for my on/off directly from battery positive. The same one has been in use over 5 years on both 36 and 48 volt batteries at up to 30 amps and has not failed! Luckily I don't know any better
otherDoc