Newbue wants to build an ebike

[johnjapan]

One question guys,
I have a reg mountain bike from giant made from aluminum

I want ti mount my battery in the frame and not on my back wheel as my fat
ass is already weighing down on my back wheel

is their a product or simple instructions on how to mount the battery in the frame
with the least amount of fiddling around ie opening battery packagde etc. ?

 

[sabongi]

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29211

 

[amberwolf]

Not "simple instructions" but there are a lot of DIY methods:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12847
some have links to their build threads too (but you can also find them by looking at that particular member's posts if they didnt' link it)

Then the thread about before/after pics of the bikes, too:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=235

 

[Chalo]

I want ti mount my battery in the frame and not on my back wheel as my fat
ass is already weighing down on my back wheel

is their a product or simple instructions on how to mount the battery in the frame
with the least amount of fiddling around ie opening battery packagde etc. ?

If you put a battery in the front triangle, it is likely to interfere with correct pedaling. When your seat is mounted at the right height for your leg length and you pedal without flaring your knees out, there is a limited amount of room between the centerline of the bike and your knees.

I have a bike with a small frame bag, which I use to carry a tube, a pump, and a few tools. Packed, it's about 2" wide. My knees touch it when I ride. If the bag were wider than that, it would make me pedal in an awkward manner.

When you ride your bike by pedal power alone, note how close your knees pass to the frame when you are pedaling smoothly and quickly. That ls how much room you have for a battery in the front triangle. And you only have that much room if the battery pack is smooth and slippery on the sides, otherwise you'll have to maintain more clearance.

Some ESers have mounted their batteries in cases attached to the front of the frame (on the head tube, not the rotating part of the fork). That's a good location for weight distribution, handling, and stability. Resist the temptation to use a fork mounted front rack for your batteries. It's possible, and there are plenty of available racks, but adding that much inertia to your steering assembly makes maneuvering ungainly.

 

[dogman dan]

I agree, but I would say that a battery including the box that is about 4" wide is pretty tolerable. One of my bikes has battery and box in the triangle that is 4 3/4 inches wide and I can still pedal pretty comfortable. But I do require a long pedal, so I can set my feet wider apart riding that bike. I'm a big guy, but don't have broad hips.

Another bike with boxes that are fully 8" wide is still pedalable, but very uncomfortable, and noticeably less power gets to the pedals. Sometimes I skin a knee on the box corners. That bike runs at a power level that requires little pedaling.

Once you are pedaling noticeably bowlegged, you lose power in your pedaling.

So don't figure on much pedaling with a mid mount battery wider than about 5 inches at the absolute maximum. If you have to cut a corner out of your box to let the pedals pass by it, your box is too wide.

Mounting the box for the battery can be simple, but ugly. A wood or metal strip is somehow bolted to the frame to support the battery from the bottom. I just used ugly but easy wood, so it became easy to attach straps of scrap sheet metal.

 

[johnjapan]

I agree, but I would say that a battery including the box that is about 4" wide is pretty tolerable. One of my bikes has battery and box in the triangle that is 4 3/4 inches wide and I can still pedal pretty comfortable. But I do require a long pedal, so I can set my feet wider apart riding that bike. I'm a big guy, but don't have broad hips.

Another bike with boxes that are fully 8" wide is still pedalable, but very uncomfortable, and noticeably less power gets to the pedals. Sometimes I skin a knee on the box corners. That bike runs at a power level that requires little pedaling.

Once you are pedaling noticeably bowlegged, you lose power in your pedaling.

So don't figure on much pedaling with a mid mount battery wider than about 5 inches at the absolute maximum. If you have to cut a corner out of your box to let the pedals pass by it, your box is too wide.

Mounting the box for the battery can be simple, but ugly. A wood or metal strip is somehow bolted to the frame to support the battery from the bottom. I just used ugly but easy wood, so it became easy to attach straps of scrap sheet metal.View attachment 1

I should almost go with a custom made battery pack in the shape of a triangle,

Why the hell do all battery packs sold on the martket come in a big bulky square/rec shape?

Arent vendors getting a clue that we need them on frames With that said, Ive tried searching for such a product and failed.
can anyone hook me up with a website that sells triangle compact batteries?

 

[johnjapan]

I want ti mount my battery in the frame and not on my back wheel as my fat
ass is already weighing down on my back wheel

is their a product or simple instructions on how to mount the battery in the frame
with the least amount of fiddling around ie opening battery packagde etc. ?

If you put a battery in the front triangle, it is likely to interfere with correct pedaling. When your seat is mounted at the right height for your leg length and you pedal without flaring your knees out, there is a limited amount of room between the centerline of the bike and your knees.

I have a bike with a small frame bag, which I use to carry a tube, a pump, and a few tools. Packed, it's about 2" wide. My knees touch it when I ride. If the bag were wider than that, it would make me pedal in an awkward manner.

When you ride your bike by pedal power alone, note how close your knees pass to the frame when you are pedaling smoothly and quickly. That ls how much room you have for a battery in the front triangle. And you only have that much room if the battery pack is smooth and slippery on the sides, otherwise you'll have to maintain more clearance.

Some ESers have mounted their batteries in cases attached to the front of the frame (on the head tube, not the rotating part of the fork). That's a good location for weight distribution, handling, and stability. Resist the temptation to use a fork mounted front rack for your batteries. It's possible, and there are plenty of available racks, but adding that much inertia to your steering assembly makes maneuvering ungainly.

Yeah you just made me realize that. Things gotta be so complicated.

 

[borschelrh]

I put mine inside the triangle on the tube using pipe those big hose clamps. I actually had to use 2 for each part. I first used nylon zip ties but added the clams to make it secure. I put a strip of rubber insulation between the tube and the battery case. See my build thread (beats me how to link to it). I have a photo there. I am probably going to have to use a second battery as my 36V/10.5Ah battery gets voltage sag after about 30 km. It recovers quickly but it is noticeable. I think with 21 Ah I might avoid it. The question then is where to put a second battery. I am adding a trailer for my boat (nearly finished) but now I am constructing a metal box to hold the boat parts and so I can lock up my pump etc and carry a big chain to lock it all up. Thieves are a big problem here in Hungary due to the large amount of gypsies here (I now that sounds racist but sadly it is true). I may just put the second battery in the box and route a cable to the power line (I already built that).

 

[amberwolf]

can anyone hook me up with a website that sells triangle compact batteries?

http://em3ev.com (cell_man here on ES) is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[dogman dan]

Part of the popularity of the RC lipo batteries has been the fact that they come in smaller square packages. Stringing several together, they often fit in the triangle. But there are hazards with handling that chemistry, so it's not recommended for the average joe unless he's got experience with them from RC cars and planes. Smart and careful people that pay attention to what they are doing handle lipo safely with no problems.

Round cell A123 lifepo4 cells are ideal, but since you could mislabel cheap cells with A123 logo and make a killing, there are lots of counterfeits out there. Just like china floods the world with fake label fashion wear.

The Ebike industry has a marketing problem. Price pressure keeps them making small batteries. Small batteries can carry anywhere on the bike no problem But real riders need big batteries, and many of us can't fit them in smaller bikes triangles. Too big a battery carried high on a rear rack can make a bike handle real bad.

So step one might be looking at bikes with bigger triangles, rather than dirt jump and bmx frames. Traditional frame MTB's can usually fit a 36v 15 ah lifepo4 pack easily. Some can fit a 48v 15 ah, like the pics I showed just now. That's big enough to go 20-35 miles.

 

[johnjapan]

Part of the popularity of the RC lipo batteries has been the fact that they come in smaller square packages. Stringing several together, they often fit in the triangle. But there are hazards with handling that chemistry, so it's not recommended for the average joe unless he's got experience with them from RC cars and planes. Smart and careful people that pay attention to what they are doing handle lipo safely with no problems.

Round cell A123 lifepo4 cells are ideal, but since you could mislabel cheap cells with A123 logo and make a killing, there are lots of counterfeits out there. Just like china floods the world with fake label fashion wear.

The Ebike industry has a marketing problem. Price pressure keeps them making small batteries. Small batteries can carry anywhere on the bike no problem But real riders need big batteries, and many of us can't fit them in smaller bikes triangles. Too big a battery carried high on a rear rack can make a bike handle real bad.

So step one might be looking at bikes with bigger triangles, rather than dirt jump and bmx frames. Traditional frame MTB's can usually fit a 36v 15 ah lifepo4 pack easily. Some can fit a 48v 15 ah, like the pics I showed just now. That's big enough to go 20-35 miles.

I have tons of triangle space the problem with most square or rec batteries are the thickness which impede on the pedaling I don't want that so I'm open to alternatives. Custom building a battery seems like the only choice cell by cell.

I want a 48v20 ah or a 60v15ah either one is fine.

 

[borschelrh]

I added screw adjustable pipe clamps to make it secure after I took this photo. The zip ties were to just test out the system the first day. I need to take more photos and plan to once I get the trailer finished. This works for me and has held up on long and very hard rides. The motor controller is in the small bag. I don't have any problems pedaling or hitting my knees. But, 36V/10.5 Ah is minimally sufficient and I may have to go ahead and disassemble the aluminum pack and combine 2 of them to get 20 Ah inside the triangle.

 

[lbz5mc12]

Have you looked into getting a water bottle style battery that mounts to the bolt holes on the triangle where a regular water bottle cage goes? Go to bmsbattery.com and see if they ship to Japan. http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/522-bottle-ebike-battery.html. Maybe a little frog, http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/17-36v-lithium-ion-little-frog-abs-shell-ebike-battery-pack.html.
I bought their 48V 10A battery and I'm getting about 20 miles per ride out of it, http://www.bmsbattery.com/48v/166-48v-10ah-lithium-ion-electric-bicycle-battery-pack.html.
The 48V battery in the picture isn't what you get. The actual size of the battery is about half the size of the one in the picture and it only weighs about 6 lbs.

 

[johnjapan]

I added screw adjustable pipe clamps to make it secure after I took this photo. The zip ties were to just test out the system the first day. I need to take more photos and plan to once I get the trailer finished. This works for me and has held up on long and very hard rides. The motor controller is in the small bag. I don't have any problems pedaling or hitting my knees. But, 36V/10.5 Ah is minimally sufficient and I may have to go ahead and disassemble the aluminum pack and combine 2 of them to get 20 Ah inside the triangle.

I love your setup man wicked cool exactly what I want!

Only one problem...... I need 48v 20ah to fit in my triangle I need my setup to be
low profile so im not going to settle for any other setup

 

[johnjapan]

Question guys

My bike is a 24 speed 8 x 3


most ebike website s only carry 6 and 7 but np 8s will 6 or 7 br compatible with my 24 speed bike?

 

[Chalo]

Question guys

My bike is a 24 speed 8 x 3


most ebike website s only carry 6 and 7 but np 8s will 6 or 7 br compatible with my 24 speed bike?

No. But you can either buy a DNP 8-speed freewheel (a low-quality item) and add an axle spacer, or you can swap your 8sp right side shifter for a 6sp or 7sp unit. At my shop, a 7-speed trigger shifter costs about $20 for the part, and a 7-speed twist grip shifter costs $15. We install one for $6-8 labor.

I recommend 7-speed if it means you can go without adding a spacer.

EDIT: I think SunRace makes an 8 speed freewheel too. It's not top shelf by any means, but it's better than DNP.

 

[lbz5mc12]

When you mentioned before about your "fat ass" being over the rear wheel, were you being serious as in you're a large guy like I am or were you being humorously sarcastic? I just ask because I'm using a hard tail frame that has a triangle which is too small for either of my batteries. I've got my battery on a rear carrier and it doesn't really unbalance my bike at all. Between me and my bike, there's about 400 lbs of weight and I'm getting around 20 miles out of my pack at an average speed of 25 mph. My pack only weighs a little over 6 lbs and it's 3 x 8 x 8 give or take a 1/2". I've got the battery and controller on the rear in a battery bag Velcro-ed and bungied to the carrier. Granted it's not the most secure against theft but when I go somewhere I just have an extra coiled bike lock I securely wrap around the battery, carrier and rear wheel. Looking at borschelrh's bike, I had my GT set up similarly with a battery I used to have that is very similar to his. When it comes to your gears you'll probably just end up losing a gear. If you don't know how you can take your bike to a bike shop and they can set your shifter to keep it from shifting into the lost gear. I have a problem with my kit where I can't shift into the easiest gear because my derailleur hits the hub motor. Honestly I don't even miss having the gear. I actually only use 2 gears now, my starting/pedal only gear and my hardest gear.

 

[johnjapan]

When you mentioned before about your "fat ass" being over the rear wheel, were you being serious as in you're a large guy like I am or were you being humorously sarcastic? I just ask because I'm using a hard tail frame that has a triangle which is too small for either of my batteries. I've got my battery on a rear carrier and it doesn't really unbalance my bike at all. Between me and my bike, there's about 400 lbs of weight and I'm getting around 20 miles out of my pack at an average speed of 25 mph. My pack only weighs a little over 6 lbs and it's 3 x 8 x 8 give or take a 1/2". I've got the battery and controller on the rear in a battery bag Velcro-ed and bungied to the carrier. Granted it's not the most secure against theft but when I go somewhere I just have an extra coiled bike lock I securely wrap around the battery, carrier and rear wheel. Looking at borschelrh's bike, I had my GT set up similarly with a battery I used to have that is very similar to his. When it comes to your gears you'll probably just end up losing a gear. If you don't know how you can take your bike to a bike shop and they can set your shifter to keep it from shifting into the lost gear. I have a problem with my kit where I can't shift into the easiest gear because my derailleur hits the hub motor. Honestly I don't even miss having the gear. I actually only use 2 gears now, my starting/pedal only gear and my hardest gear.

im not skinny by any means

I'm pushing 100kgs about 220lbs
so yeah trying to get down to 200 this summer with bike activity and diet
.

You're gear setup makes sense now that I think of it.

 

[johnjapan]

Question guys. ....



If I buy 2 48v10 packs how could one put it in a frame and combine as 1 48v20ah pack?
is there some special wiring you have to do?


maybe when the battery goes low the second kicks in any one familiar with this setup?

 

[Chalo]

Between me and my bike, there's about 400 lbs of weight and I'm getting around 20 miles out of my pack at an average speed of 25 mph. My pack only weighs a little over 6 lbs and it's 3 x 8 x 8 give or take a 1/2".

So you're using burn-the-house-down, 10% defect rate batteries I guess?

 

[lbz5mc12]

Between me and my bike, there's about 400 lbs of weight and I'm getting around 20 miles out of my pack at an average speed of 25 mph. My pack only weighs a little over 6 lbs and it's 3 x 8 x 8 give or take a 1/2".

So you're using burn-the-house-down, 10% defect rate batteries I guess?

Actually I'm using a pre-built pack from bmsbattery.com, lithium ion shrink tube.

To John, all I've done to use two different batteries before was to use a 2 battery switch. I'm using the switch that comes with the Currie electric bikes and kits. It also acts like an on/off switch. I was using a 36V and a 48V battery with it, now I'm just using one battery pack. If you use the switch you don't have to parallel them, you can just switch between them when you need to. I was using the 36V as my pedal assist battery and the 48V when I just wanted to haul butt. Now I'm just using the 48V because I want to haul butt all the time.

 

[johnjapan]

26" rim  Brushless gearless hub motor 48V 1000W ebike Waterproof  LCD system kit
With 2 disc brake (for rear and front) ,
With6 speed gear ,
$205
With 48V 20AH LifePo4 battery 
$415
With a back rack +Controller bag
Free of charge
4A charger and double Double kickstand
$45
Shipping by DHL 3-4 days $215 from china to Japan

grand total 880USD

I got a quote for a company called cnebikes.com

Am I being ripped off.....

 

[johnjapan]

Good news guys


PAUL the guy from em3v ebikes is going to start selling triangle pack work an aluminum hard case maybe
It will be 50v18.9ah
Sweet. Eh!

 

[jkbrigman]

....
I want to convert a mountain bike I already have with these things in mind

1. I'd like a bike that will give me the maximum range possible, speed or power is not really a priority
2. I'd like the batteries to be removable so that I can bring them inside to charge
3. I have a budget of about 1000 to 1500 dollars

how do I get started ?

Welcome John! I'll make some quick points:

1) as dogman mentioned, your goals are do-able. All I would modify from his advice is that I ride with 72v15Ah LiPo and that's not too heavy (9 bricks of Turnigy RC LiPo)
2) choose a "slow wind" and slightly smaller motor to get that efficiency. You'll need less than 20Wh/mi, your target should be 10-13Wh/mile
3) get a "matched set" from cell_man (emissions-free.com) or ebikes.ca. They give great support, and the great thing is that from cell_man, you get an entire setup: battery, controller, motor and CA, all from the same place. You pay shipping only once, and cell_man includes a charger and BMS with his batteries.
4) The amount of trouble you will save yourself on buying a complete combo is immense.
5) Plan to buy at least one, and preferably two, torque arms.
6) If you don't already have the bike on-hand, I suggest converting a cross bike: something with 700c rims, flat bar and front shocks, but meant to be on the road.

Keep talking and plan to do a good build thread! Take pictures!

James

 

[jkbrigman]

Good news guys


PAUL the guy from em3v ebikes is going to start selling triangle pack work an aluminum hard case maybe
It will be 50v18.9ah
Sweet. Eh!

BTW: Paul is "cell_man". Highly recommended. Go with him and avoid pain. His triangle pack is NICE.

JKB