No love for SLA batteries?

[oatnet]

So lipo definitely seems like the reigning king. LifePO4 second...

Yep, good lifepo4 with hi C rate may be considerted almost equal to Lipo, except for the extra weight. Ping is far behind, and lead is dead.

The big Clytes sure love hi C rate batteries and big controllers, the 5304 is a beast when fed properly.

The big Cylte doesn't run a whit faster or stronger with a high c rate battery - c rate simply isn't in the formula for watts. I can size a 5c pack to supply the same volts and amps as a 25c pack.

High C rate really adds nothing to a commuter bike; a pack run at 20c will be discharged in 3 minutes, which is a short commute indeed. I've been posting this for years, but when I size a commuter bike pack to the range needed and desired mph, rarely do I see more than 3C discharge. For example, recently I've been spending some time on a 9c 8x8 build with a 35a controller. A 48v16ah LiFe pack is just enough to do my 16+ mile hillbound commute, and most of the time it is pulling 10a-20a - under 1.25c . It scoots and climbs pretty well, but the controller can barely pull 2c from the pack. 25c is 23c more than it needs.

Even a hotrod with a methods controller pulling 100a is only 5C for a midrange-quality 20ah Headway pack - and will completely discharge in 12 joyful minutes at that rate.

Sure, most of the 1c-2c LiFePO4 packs should be avoided, but not because they are LiFe, but because they are often crappy tiny round cells with a high case-weight penalty, with shoddy pack construction, requiring so many welds that one is likely to fail. However, it isn't going to thermal runaway like the Lyen's cheap (non hobby-city) LiPo did. No matter what chemistry, cheap packs yield cheap results .

Is what I heard true, that the HobbyCity LiPo most folks are using is rated for 500 cycles? Midrange LiFePO4 is typically rated 1000-1500 cycles at 80% DOD, and quality powder at 2000 cycles, so you'd have to replace the LiPo 2-3-4 times for the same performance.

Quality LiFe has a higher initial cost, but when you consider a life of 2000 cycles, in the long run it is cheaper than midrange LiFe. I run Quality LiFe, so LiPo would only be a 15%-20% weight savings; lipo would be a little smaller too, but one of my 48v16ah packs is only 4.5" x 6" x 8.5". Heck, going from a new-lighter-xlyte to a 9c would save a heck of a lot more weight than going to HyPo, er LiPo. 8)

Not to mention the original, bulletproof x5 weighs @12lbs more than the 9c... I love the x5s but if ultimate screaming performance is not your goal, motor choice is a much easier way to save weight.

-JD

 

[amberwolf]

my daily 25 mile round trip commute.

Sure... maybe 500 cycles out of them, but that's pretty much 6 months of use.

One thought about this (which might've been covered already): Whatever battery you use, you need to ensure that it has enough range/power to still work at *end* of lifespan, not just at the beginning.

Meaning, if you size the pack to give you say, 27-30 miles when you first install it, and you need 25 *for sure*, then as it ages it will (relatively quickly for SLA) be unable to get you enough range.

Even worse if you sometimes have headwinds or cold temperatures or other conditions that cause range to decrease below what gets your commute done.

So sizing the pack so that under worst-case conditions it will still get you there and back is usually necessary. It'd suck to find out that only a couple months into using it you have to replace the pack, because it doesnt' *quite* ahve enough range anymore.

(although typically you could just go a lot slower, and be really easy on startups, and keep getting enough range from the pack for a good while longer)


As for why SLA don't get no love? It's probably twice as heavy for the same power as the next-heaviest chemistries, and suffers jsut about the worst from Peukert, and isn't that much cheaper, because for our uses it has about the shortest lifespan.

It does have the advantage that for "cheap" batteries it can pump out some really high currents for short periods, enabling nice off-the-line startups, without serious damage to the cells. (but it does have a lot of voltage sag while doing this, typically)

It is a great way to start learning aobut EVs, but I'd venture to say that I agree: In most cases, anyone that goes to other chemistries after SLA probably won't go back (depending on their experiences with whatever quality pack they get).

 

[MadRhino]

So lipo definitely seems like the reigning king. LifePO4 second...

Yep, good lifepo4 with hi C rate may be considerted almost equal to Lipo, except for the extra weight. Ping is far behind, and lead is dead.

The big Clytes sure love hi C rate batteries and big controllers, the 5304 is a beast when fed properly.

The big Cylte doesn't run a whit faster or stronger with a high c rate battery - c rate simply isn't in the formula for watts. I can size a 5c pack to supply the same volts and amps as a 25c pack.

High C rate really adds nothing to a commuter bike; a pack run at 20c will be discharged in 3 minutes, which is a short commute indeed. I've been posting this for years, but when I size a commuter bike pack to the range needed and desired mph, rarely do I see more than 3C discharge. For example, recently I've been spending some time on a 9c 8x8 build with a 35a controller. A 48v16ah LiFe pack is just enough to do my 16+ mile hillbound commute, and most of the time it is pulling 10a-20a - under 1.25c . It scoots and climbs pretty well, but the controller can barely pull 2c from the pack. 25c is 23c more than it needs.

Even a hotrod with a methods controller pulling 100a is only 5C for a midrange-quality 20ah Headway pack - and will completely discharge in 12 joyful minutes at that rate.

Sure, most of the 1c-2c LiFePO4 packs should be avoided, but not because they are LiFe, but because they are often crappy tiny round cells with a high case-weight penalty, with shoddy pack construction, requiring so many welds that one is likely to fail. However, it isn't going to thermal runaway like the Lyen's cheap (non hobby-city) LiPo did. No matter what chemistry, cheap packs yield cheap results .

Is what I heard true, that the HobbyCity LiPo most folks are using is rated for 500 cycles? Midrange LiFePO4 is typically rated 1000-1500 cycles at 80% DOD, and quality powder at 2000 cycles, so you'd have to replace the LiPo 2-3-4 times for the same performance.

Quality LiFe has a higher initial cost, but when you consider a life of 2000 cycles, in the long run it is cheaper than midrange LiFe. I run Quality LiFe, so LiPo would only be a 15%-20% weight savings; lipo would be a little smaller too, but one of my 48v16ah packs is only 4.5" x 6" x 8.5". Heck, going from a new-lighter-xlyte to a 9c would save a heck of a lot more weight than going to HyPo, er LiPo. 8)

Not to mention the original, bulletproof x5 weighs @12lbs more than the 9c... I love the x5s but if ultimate screaming performance is not your goal, motor choice is a much easier way to save weight.

-JD

Agreed, better C rate won't add power, but let you feed it when you realize that a big Clyte wants, and can take, alot more amps. That is why I said that a Ping battery is more suitable to a 9C. A 5C rate is already much better than a Ping and still, would have performed poorly feeding my Clyte 10000W at freezing -20C this winter.

Best quality Lifepo4 can be just as good as Lipo, some more weight and size but safer chemistry and longer expected life, only a matter of personnal priority in building a ride. In fact, I am actually investigating quality Lifepo4 to build a bike for my GF to safely ride and charge, for I can't trust her with the kind of conscious monitoring and charging that my Lipo packs require.

The heavy motor is not a good choice for everyone of course, but the only way for me to ride the mountain in silence with the required sporting performance. Even the 5304 is flirting with its limit here. For a commuter, with range priority and few hills, a Ping with a 9C is a good choice, and a slow wind 9C can even be a good choice in the mountain if one doesn't need the speed.

 

[Lionstrike]

Wow. That's a lot of info.

So.... I looked up pingbattery... regen braking requires a couple of more hurdles to jump over. The regen current can't be more than 5 amps and special wiring is needed in order to do it. Since I am a lithium virgin it's probably not a good idea for me to overcomplicate it on the first run yeah?

That Workman site looks solid... but there's a couple on ebay and craigslist that might work too. ...I am not so sure about the forks though... I think that they said they were "chrome-moly".

Really, really. really leaning towards the following build now:

2806 9c 26" rim
Infineon 35a controller
48v 20ah ping battery

...And a whole lot of fun.

 

[nuevomexicano]

...
That Workman site looks solid... but there's a couple on ebay and craigslist that might work too. ...I am not so sure about the forks though... I think that they said they were "chrome-moly"...

I'm not sure what you're worried about. Chromoly is an alloy of steel with chromium and molybdenum. It's much harder and stronger than regular steel. Its what you want if you're abusing the fork.

 

[sangesf]

Just to add a little MORE confusion for you...
You COULD take a heavy duty tricycle and add a 48v motor kit to the front wheel and load up the back (trikes usually have a huge basket there) with 4 - 12v 80ah SLAs (200lbs!)
Wait! Nevermind..

You 300lbs (free)

Bike 100lbs ($300)

Batteries 200lbs ($800)

600lbs on a bike (priceless)

(MasterCard reference - )

 

[Lionstrike]

LOL, not so far fetched as you might think! I saw some students rolling through campus the other day on regular bicycles towing a trailer full of slabs of stones. LOTS OF THEM.

Epic leg workout.

 

[amberwolf]

If you wanna know how tough the Worksman trikes are, look up the MikeFairbanks threads here on ES, where he accidentally rode his right into a tree at speed. All that happened to any of the trike was that the fork snapped at the stem-to-crown joint, which I'd kind of expect with that mass at that velocity suddenly stopping forcefully.

I'd bet that fork could be welded back together and ridden on for years just fine.

 

[dogman dan]

I'm a bit confused now.

You have the 9c motor in 2806? Or are about to order? That's a fast winding good for long runs at fast speed with few stop signs. I may have misunderstood you in earlier threads. 25 miles without charging is possible at 20 mph, using a ping 48v 15 ah. If you charge at work then it would be plenty for a 20 amp controller. For larger controller get the 20 amp. 48v 20 amp is a big bulky heavy brick to carry though.

If you have syteep hills, then get the 2807, it will climb better.

The 5305 will definitely climb better, its an even slower motor than the 2807.

 

[Lionstrike]

I have a completely constructed Ebikekit.com bike. It was originally running at 36v, but today I added another 12v and "Watts - Up" instrumentation. It's rocking 48v now SLA and has a digital speedometer I just put on.

Looks like the added 12v helped the speed out about 5mph but it still needs a little help on hills. The meter says that it's drawing about 20 amps peak even though the controller is rated for 22.

|Sidebar| DIGITAL INSTRUMENTATION ROCKS!!!!.... next build gets the "Cycle Analyst."

^^^ This build was to play around with, to get my feet wet in the wonderful world of electric bicycles and to get my very first "EV grin." This was gleefully achieved.

The next build... the one that I am referencing in this post, is going to be much,much more than that. From this, I expect a daily commuter. 13 miles... charge... and then 13 miles back home is the minimum that I have to plan for. 25-26 mile round trip without charging is IDEAL.

There are some hills... but they're all in the beginning of my route and they don't last for too long or are of a super high grade. They do exist though.

I just rode at 20 mph just now. I'd be cool with a 20-25mph top speed if it could keep that speed indefinitely.

So so far, the vote is 9c 2806, 35amp controller (not sure what that'll do to my battery life) and a 48v 20ah ping battery.

Were you thinking that I should change some element of that?

 

[dogman dan]

I think all you need is a 48v 15 ah pingbattery for the bike you have. It will give you at least 25 mph for 20 miles. If you want to go fast though, then get lipo, and 18s or 20s will have you flying.

Going faster on the commute though, is problematic. About 25 mph is best for watthours/mile eliminating the need for a huge battery. But try to run that 17 miles at 35 mph, and you need a LOT more watthours, and a way to carry it. And a way to stop, etc etc etc.

The Ebikekit 2807 motor with 48v 15 ah ping is the commuter bike sweet spot. So get a ping for now to commute on. Or a better lifepo4 of similar size like the cellman battery.

Then later, start playing with power. Then either volt up some 9c motors, or get the clytes.

 

[Lionstrike]

I see your point.

..But on the other hand, I think that I might be a "lifer." Before I am said and done, I plan to have several of these green, cheap to run and maintain little commuters around, a virtual little fleet of little bicycles that allow me to put my size 14 shoe straight up big oil's rear end.

I am going to build another one if for nothing other than the sake of the fact that they're fun to build, and also if one goes out of commission for any reason (flat tire, brake pads need replacing, battery cycles are low, whatever) I just go to bike #2... or #3... or 15... whatever.

This is my only really expensive hobby so I plan to make a go of it. Problem is... I've got grand dreams but my mind writes checks reality can't cash. I'd like to have a little hill climbing torque monster that can go 30 mph for 30 miles. It's just I don't know a whole lot. But I will in time... that's why this forum OWNS. :wink:

This bike will probably get built late this year... which is why I am bouncing so many ideas off of you all. Measure twice, cut once.

Also it should be mentioned that my ebikekit motor wasn't the standard one. It was a 9x15 or something like that... mentioning that it was geared for torque rather than speed. I tried it out today at 48v and it was only good for 20mph. 25 mph (consistantly) and now I am in business!

So... 2806 or 2807? I think I am going to rock the 20ah 48v ping though... better have some room in case it gets cold outside or unforseen circumstances arise.

And I did check out ebikes.ca like you'd mentioned on my first post. They look solid. That's probably where I'll be placing my order.

 

[MikeFairbanks]

If you wanna know how tough the Worksman trikes are, look up the MikeFairbanks threads here on ES, where he accidentally rode his right into a tree at speed. All that happened to any of the trike was that the fork snapped at the stem-to-crown joint, which I'd kind of expect with that mass at that velocity suddenly stopping forcefully.

I'd bet that fork could be welded back together and ridden on for years just fine.

I bought a new fork ($40) and it rides just like it always did. Plus, I built a better battery box (just added it today), secured everything better, got the light kit back onto the front and rear, and fixed the chain guard (it was a bit bent....still is, but not that bad).

Rode it again this evening.

I was going to ride it to work today, but after staying up until 1:15am (glued to the TV while my kids were hunkered down in the walk-in closet, hiding from tornadoes) I was too tired to ride today. I woke up as late as possible (6:35am) and drove to work tired. Everyone showed up tired. More than half the students were up until at least 1am, and nearly all of them were sleeping in basements, closets, bathrooms, etc.

What a freakin' night.

We went through four tornado warnings here, and the last one was the worst, but it touched down about eight miles west of us, jumped over our city, and touched down on the other side.

Tomorrow I'm riding to work. The weather is nice again.

I feel horrible for Alabama. What a flippin' disaster. I'm thinking of driving to Tuscaloosa on Saturday with a carload of stuff (water, canned food...whatever) to help, but I doubt there's much I can do. I also want to see the damage for myself.

We dodged a bullet in central and south Georgia. It could have been a lot worse.

 

[Cicada]

Hi ,
Maybe you're interested inhow my Cicada goes with 9C 2808 and Ping 48V 20Ah, I'm really happy about it.
Check this out, good luck!
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26299

 

[Lionstrike]

I am very much interested in the progress of that build! Thanks for sharing that.

I am a little disappointed with the top speed figure though... did you get that problem figured out? I am looking for 25-30 mph and 25 mile range.

 

[el_walto]

The regen current can't be more than 5 amps and special wiring is needed in order to do it.

I just use the regular wiring with my 15Ah ping and have no problem. Regen current hits up to about 10Amps. Ping even said i could do this as long as I don't overcharge the pack. My controller will stop Regen if the pack reaches 57Volts, so I have no problems having it wired this way unless my pack was really of balance for some reason AND i started my trip down a huge hill.

 

[Cicada]

HI again Lion,

After few days I only could say I'm happy about my choices.
I was after some huge help in a torquy way, ok it's not fast, but (if pedalling) is hard a hill of any kind can stop you,
good ratio between money/weight/relaiability/simple to assemble/durability ....just do not expect any super thrilling...does his job, nice and quite, no heating (very important I belive).

As speed easy pedaling you can go 50kmh that is quite a good limit for my Cicada, that battery behind you isn't any good, you can feel back tyre rim screaming with that brick on top (and no rear suspension) on every litlle bumps... but as longtudinal balance I'm pretty happy, that Giant was pretty heavy front fork and very tiny and light frame on the back, from my point of view a decent front forks helps a lot to add a little comfort and safety in a long cruise.

If you get a 9C 2806 for sure you're going faster, even 50kmh no pedaling, but I guess you loose the magic soft torque of the 2808.
We have to say that I settled my 35a CA at 25 amps max drop, that is what a Ping 48V 20ah can do to grant you your 25 miles range at full throttle, not that close to battery range limit , hoping in a +1000 cycles for it.
Want to go faster? You can set CA at 50 amps max drop, so have some more torque, and I'm sure that you culd go 55kmh maybe 60, easy, but probably you can't do more then 15-18 miles with battery very empty...very hard job for your Ping in this case , and probably be prepared tomuch less than 1000 cycles.
I get you're planning your ultimate proj...that's awesome. This is a reliable one.

If you're looking for fun and feel in fast and fourious mode, get a Stealth. Or, for what I got from here on ES, even if you're building you're own project you must invest a fortune and a lot of time. To not talk about knowledge in elettrics, that is my bigger limit.
My bike weight is 28kg, it's still a bycicle, I can bring it upstairs and pull it if got a flat....power means weight here, sure you want go for it?
Than need good brakes and full suspension. Unless for you fun means dangerous.
I had fun building my project, I'm proud of it, it works and it will last , a good money and time investiment. And overtaking lycra professionals is good fun.
Good luck, have fun, ride safe.

 

[Cicada]

Forgot, mine is 2k us dollars project, bike included.

 

[Lionstrike]

Thanks everyone for chiming in. It's a really great thing to have some opinions before I drop 2k on a project.

And i am o.k. if it costs 2k by the way. No problem. But if it is to be 2k, then I want PERFORMANCE. I want it to be worth every penny.

30mph (50kph) is all I want. I am totally o.k. with that. My brother and I were testing my current eBike (my prototype if you will will indulge me) and found that 30mph is pretty slow for a car... but FAST for a bike. It's odd how standards of speed and what is fast changes depending on the vehicle.

25mph range is a luxury. 13 would be bare minimum, but in case they will not allow me to charge at work for some reason (I can't imagine why) I'd like to be able to make it back even without their consent.

Hills? No big deal. If I have to pedal a bit to get up them... I am not going to cry. A little exercise is fine for me as long as I don't get to work and immediately need a shower.

I think I can come in on this project at under the figure 2k too.

~$500 ebikes.ca kit 2806 motor, 35 amp controller, cycleanalyst, attachments.

~$700 ping battery, 48v 20ah

~Misc odds and ends (tools and supplies)... $100-200

I think this will work On the other hand I've been encouraged to check out the new Crystalyte HS/HT motors sometimes referred to as "Phoenix II" motors. When people have some more real world tests of these, I'll take a look at those too. They are significantly more expensive though, so unless they just BLOW AWAY 9c motors, I think I'll use the build above.

 

[Cicada]

Hey Lionstrike

How is it going with your project?

Cicada has been updated and fixed!
Amazing torque, speed is now 45kmh
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26299

ridesafe

 

[Lionstrike]

Hey Cicada,

Well... the project has become three different ones. The EV addiction... it got me BAD.

In the last few weeks I bought:

A Crystalyte 5304 front and controller with all accessories (700c)

A generic "Desheng" eBikekit with 48v NiCd.

And I have been tinkering with my electric motorcycle project a bit more, that has a Curtis controller and an original Etek.

I am addicted! I can't stop tinkering! There's no hope for me!

I see from your thread that you've got more than one going yourself. I am sure that you know the feeling!