No One Gives A Rat’s Ass

LockH

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... About Your ‘Street Legal’ Ebike : Build Something Awesome:
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/...r-street-legal-ebike-build-something-awesome/

Writer Karl Gesslein starts off:
Whenever I surf the web to find out what is happening in the ebike industry I get pretty depressed. The US ebike market is a wasteland of cheap underpowered hub-powered ugly ebikes and overpriced underpowered torque sensing mid-drives. *facepalm* It’s no wonder that no one is buying this crap.

Pics included:
rocket-powered-bike.jpg

(Captioned: That’s my kind of crazy)

... and long article concludes:
High powered mid drives all the way. Nothing else compares.

Ride on.
 
Yet another idiot using car driver "logic" to analyze something that isn't nearly as toxic and destructive as cars.

If you want something truly beautiful and elegant, forget electric power and revert to pedals. Once you make the compromise, nothing will ever be so beautiful again.
 
It’s no wonder that no one is buying this crap.

It seems like ebikes have a huge identity problem. Ebikes are so similar to existing transportation categories that they are hard for people to differentiate and thus hard for vendors to market:

People who don't like two-wheeled vehicles in general hear the word 'bike' and lose interest.
People who like motorcycles and dirtbikes think ebikes are slow and dorky.
People who like pedal cycling think ebikes lack the athleticism, social community, or 'green-ness' of pedaling.
People who like scooters barely exist in the USA, so it doesn't matter what they think of ebikes.

If we are honest about the best use-case for ebikes, it's really as an urban commuter. That's a big problem in a country where the most similar existing category is the scooter, which are seen as dorky, dangerous, and impractical. Basically that market doesn't exist here (yet). The tiny US ebike market is dominated by low-power stuff because vendors are stuck trying to convert pedal cyclists, who WANT to pedal.

High power stuff is starting to win over some of the thrill-seeking MTB and dirtbike people, but even if Karl's dreams come true, the off-road market will always be pretty small because it's a pain in the ass to drag your bike out to permitted areas, unless you live in the woods like Karl. Also high power = regulation, which will shrink all the markets a bit.
 
While some people have both kinds,, using the tool that suits the job best for each ride, depending on the kind of ride, and the mood yer in.

For me this includes a few "legal" e bikes for street, a "legal" e bike for dirt trails. And for dirt roads that abound in my area, a much higher powered dirt e bike. I put legal in quotes, because all local bike trails prohibit motors. I ride polite and go there anyway. But not on the bikes that can throw a rock and chew up trails. For high speed fun, I hop on a legit 95 mph street scooter.

Hell,, if it gots two wheels,, I RIDE IT. I don't give a rats ass what kind it is. But If I'm going to dice up traffic at 60mph,,, I'll take insurance for that activity please.

I'd damn sure ride that rocket bike too, if given a chance to.
 
I think I'll put a 500W sticker on my 1500W BBSHD... I Need to find a way to install a hidden switch on my bike so It limits ther power to 500W (legal limit here in canada) when I'm in town, or as soon as I see a cops ...
Then when I'm on the country roads or when no one is looking, I can just put the switch back to 1500W...

Just like : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na4520lChDg
 
The problem in the US is bikes like scooters are primarily considered leisure time toys vs essential transportation. In many third world countries the primary mode of personal transport is on two wheels. In that case both the riders and dealers take their vehicles much more seriously.
 
For me, I built my own bike because of two reasons:

1) I wanted to use a throttle at any time, like a scooter or similar.

2) It would be fun to build it and learn the process.

My wife has a great bosch ebike that is just perfect for short commutes of around 5km, but it has two major flaus.

1) It is limited, I hate when things are limited, you buy it but you cant use it to the full potential? Why?!?!

2) You have to pedal to get the power, if you want to "relax" and move you cant...

So building my own bike resulted in me being happy, still after two attemps of building, I have spent the same ammount of cash on my bike that hers costed...

But the day I get into an accident and the government realize that my bike is not legal will not be a joy full day for me...
 
I think Karl brings up some important points...something that is rare to bring up in the industry.

Most interesting to me is that many production ebike vendors including Pedego and prodotech (2 of the largest production bike makers in usa) most of their bikes put way over 750 watts.

They sale them as 750 watt because of the chinese rating on the motor which makes on sense.....

IF you put a 48v controller and 20 amp controller on your "500w" mac motor it is not a 500 watt bike. I have never seen anyone have the balls to write that. It really shakes up the industry.... even with me who is just starting to sale complete e bikes.

Karl and his big frocking mouth.

The truth is its possible you are riding a production bike that you overpaid for has sucky performance and is still technically illegal. and the way the law works its like a line...either your legal or not...it does not matter how far you step beyond the line.
 
Yes,, put a "20 amp" controller which may be in fact 22 amps, and you will briefly see 1200w peak on an uphill start. Climbing a steep hill, you will see about 1000w continuous, so we call it a 1000w kit with the 48v battery.

That is wattage going in, measured at the battery. With a 500w rated geared motor such as the mac. On 36v you will see about 800 peak watts.

In the USA,,, is that 1000w legal? Maybe,, Maybe not. It's street legal in New Mexico. But here, all e bikes are motor vehicles that require a drivers license. That sucks,, but the law also says 30 mph, and 50 cc's. Since a 50cc motor can put out about 5 hp,,, the watt limit is 3750 watts? :twisted: Obviously, that's enough wattage to build for 45 mph, but the law says above 30 mph I need both drivers license and a license plate, meaning a vin number, and insurance. So I bought a scoot with that, for above 30 mph.

In any case, In my state the faster Pedego will be legal. It matters a LOT where you are. When I get that question on the chat, E bike kit says " we are not lawyers" and then we refer the customer to look up the law in their state. We call the 48v kits 1000w, and the 36v kits 750w, and tell the customer the motor is rated to 500w.

But If I ride to Texas, 40 miles away, the law is quite different, with a 750w watt limit.

Bottom line though, is watt limits are virtually impossible to police. Neither the cops, nor the judge, has a dyno. But if your 48v bike does go 30 mph,, then perhaps a cop can obviously see you exceed a 20 mph limit, if your state or province has one.

This is why in Europe, the more recent e bike laws refer only to the rated wattage of the motor. Not the actual power measured at the battery, nor the actual power measured at the rubber.

Personally,, IMO there should be no watt limits, or at least, none less than 3 hp. Some people need a lot more power than 750w. This would be a pedicab, or perhaps a food vendor who's "bike" might weigh 1000 pounds. Or perhaps just somebody who uses a trailer, and has three kids to take to school.

Speed limits are appropriate, and can reasonably be slower than the fastest athletes on racing bikes. But no need to make it 15 kph. Please,, even a very heavy bike can have brakes that stop it from 40 kph/ 20 mph.

If you find yourself caught in catch 22 of your local laws, and want to have 1000w but look like you don't, get a low rpm motor. (which btw, will tend to max out at 800w continuous) You will have a max speed around 20 mph, but full 1000w power. If you need even more torque, make the wheel small.

Not many production bikes out there with that setup. But you can build it easy.
 
Good points dogman. yeah its a really interesting topic of discussion.... how watts are defined...etc.

I guess speed limits are much easier to define.

i started to see in recent years production bikes become more and more powerful....they still have crappy hub motors....but i see the limits being pushed on how much wattage is being pushed through that little motor.

Sometimes when i ride a recent pedego i am suprised about the power.... in fact production bikes have gotten a lot better recently and a lot faster. ...and probably they are pumping over 750 watts of power but there is no reviewer out there connecting watt hour or amp hour gauges.

I mean all bikes including our bbshd and bbs02 mid drives drive under 750 watts once they get too speed...so i guess by wattage it can be argued that the continuous draw should not be higher than 750 watts and bursts of higher are ok?

Its really really gray right now on what is legal and whats not. And i think some of the production bike guys are being hypocritical when they bitch about high power bikes or kits when most of their bikes are over the limit as well.

Dogman i always thought us kit sellers should stick together.... that we are all walking a fine line in this gray area.... and guys like ebikekit, luna ,Matt, Doug, etc etc.... we are fighting a big uphill battle especially with tough industry regulation in this country etc.

when you are selling an ebike you are really on the front line.....selling a kit over 1000w you could also find yourself draggged in with new laws taking place starting on January 1st.

Its amazing for Karl to have the balls to write a story like that...it really brings some big issues out in the open.
 
^^ And thank the Gawds laws are written by lawyers. :wink: Canadian (federal plus provinces) ebike laws state only 500 watts CONTINUOUS (no mention re peaks... yet).

With no seat belts, "crush zones", air bags, etc I suggest that bikes with an electric assist are inherently safer than "high powered" "motorbikes" (and "cars") in that the risk inherent in operation shifts back more to the operator, who by nature will drive ("ride") more safely... watt is inherently safer for all else around.

AND the fact that these "vehicles" like bikes and trikes are basically "tiny" means there's TONS more room on urban roads and parking lots, etc.

... and I'm a "typical" north american who loves speed and loves power. BUT, in an increasingly "congested" urban world... can't see how "high powered" and "big" is relevant any more.
 
Dogman has gotten me to slow and take a look now going 10-12mph on the sand. But find myself doing 47mph street with a comoly bike. Next time a lighter slower bike 35mph is fine.
 
I dont care as long as my ebike LQQKS like a bicycle everything will be kosher. Fake pedaling goes a long way ;)
People get so focused on what the law states. I say frock the law but be polite about it, tip that prostitute ;)
Dont be doing wheelies up and down High/Main Street, dont be a prick and whiz by parents and their children and/or family pets. Be sure the Karma God's are on your side.
 
markz said:
I dont care as long as my ebike LQQKS like a bicycle everything will be kosher. Fake pedaling goes a long way ;)
People get so focused on what the law states. I say frock the law but be polite about it, tip that prostitute ;)
Dont be doing wheelies up and down High/Main Street, dont be a prick and whiz by parents and their children and/or family pets. Be sure the Karma God's are on your side.
+1 Yep.
 
keep in mind this is the same guy who writ this

Karl Guesslyin said:
Will Through-hole Axles Spell The End Of The Hub Motor As We Know It?

The trend towards through-hole axles is a disturbing one in the industry. Lets hope it fizzles out.

since he wuz soo write about that well then he could be right on just about anything.
simply on odds alone.
what...it could happen.
grin2706.jpeg


isn't karl & electricbike-blog.com on greenmachine's electricbike.com payroll? (in a spinningmagnets quid pro quo sort of way)
the visual & name similarity between the two is probably just a coincidence
 
I totally agree with the sentiment that the potential speed of the bike matters far less than the riders attitude. But I definitely believe a bike should be able to go 25 mph on a 25 mph street. WTF with 20 mph? or less in Europe? That's just moronic. I also think "bike multiuse paths" should have posted speed limits. They should be as low as 5 mph in specific areas. Sections of Venice or Pacific beach for example. Single track should have no speed limit. If fast riders bombing downhill scare you, get off it. Tough shit if you hike or ride a horse on those trails. But have some trails bikes can't go on in every area.

If you want to see what will come, look at the stories coming from china. They are getting very fed up with hot rodded scooter riders. But laws and crackdowns only go as far as the budget to police them. I really can't see major crackdowns coming soon in the US.

However,, you can always easily experience your personal crackdown. Mad Rhino shows us how to avoid that. But you do piss off enough cops in your town, they will get to know you, and start ticketing you on sight. Even if a Judge keeps throwing them out,, they still write that ticket with glee.

Believe me,, this sucks. I've lived it. For about 20 years every cop in town wanted a piece of me. I won't say how I got that way,, just that I stopped that behavior at 18 when it meant federal prison to continue it. But I paid for my juvie shit with 20 years of cops wanting to bust me for anything they could come up with.
 
"WTF with 20 mph?" Hehe... I actually DO give a darn about speeds. In an increasing urban world, with more and more folks around us... "High speed" and larger (heavier) aeroplanes understand aerodynamics well as needing more energy at higher speeds. Plus situations get "complicated" when you assume other animals (including humans) will behave "normally".

So my vote is for slower and lighter weight vehicles (that are shaped more aerodynamically).

r


TWIKE-green_main.jpg


:)
 
Those who want to ban ALL eMTBs from ALL trails will be certain to link to this article and probably this thread as a couple more sticks to beat us all about the head...... :oops:

It's all true and accurate and is a discussion the industry needs to have and needs to have soon, if only to present a united front speaking in behalf of the DIY ebike market.

I know it's like asking dogs and cats to play together, but shouldn't the various parties with a financial stake at risk be forming a lobbying/PR group in order to have a voice at the table? The OEMs do not give a damn about us and our issues and their existing lobbying organization will never speak up for us. As far as those who will be making and enforcing state and local laws/regulations know, we currently do not exist except as a law enforcement problem. The people and businesses that are making money from the DIY side of this new industry have an obligation to protect and grow this part of ebiking, if only to maintain their income levels.

It's past time for the major financial beneficiaries from the growth of DIY ebiking to take the first steps toward the maturation of this industry and form a trade association to speak out in their/our behalf. It is imperative that we have a common message and that there is a single go-to source for the public/media to easily learn our side of the story before it is too late and the rule-making is done.

Example: would there be much market for BBSHDs if the existing 750w limit was interpreted and strictly enforced at the border as a maximum under any and all conditions? Who would buy a 15a peak current BBSHD and what's to stop the Feds from taking this view anytime they like?
 
riders arrested
:shock:
They must have had warrants to be actually arrested and taken to jail, it would take a lot for them to do that based on what one could do on an electric bicycle. More likely they were given a Promise to Appear, I cant really see that happening but it is Florida after all.

I would just install rear pannier bags to hide the motor and be done with it.
 
Some of those gassers could well be experiencing what I called a personal crackdown. Certain face on any vehicle, including pedal bike or horse,, stop him. No problem ever, arresting that face. This is called community policing. They know 9 of 10 stops, that dude will have burglary tools or dope on him. :lol: the dumbass.

But more back on topic,, I just don't get why so many states limit an e bike, gas bike, stand up scoot, etc to 20 mph, when it's perfectly legal for a cement truck to do 25 mph on the same street where kids live.

That's what makes no sense to me. Make the speed limit in front of my house 20 mph,, hell yeah,, I'd LIKE that. Then I'd be happy with a 20 mph limit on electric bikes. You just cannot explain to me how a truck going 25 mph where kids play is safe, but oh no,, can't do it on an e bike.

And while at it,, I'd LOVE it, if no street within city limits that is not a state highway had a speed limit over 30 mph. That would mean you don't need a 45 mph e bike so bad to survive riding it on some of those bigger streets. Some would still be doing 50 of course, but once people got used to it, most would drive about 35 .

Can you tell I'm old now? Everything not on a highway is too fast for me now. :lol: On the freeway,, I'm still ok with 80 mph, on the scoot, in the car. Limit is 75 here btw. I just want slower speeds on city streets.
 
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