Open for ideas !

[sdparkes66]

Hi Guys,

So I have been asked to find out what would be the best upgrades for the trike below ( or very similar)..

It has a 1500w motor ( Chinese Watts :wink: ) and 60v 20Ah Battery..

In it's current state, it does around 45kph ( again, Chinese kph lol ) using GPS around 27-29mph. In truth speed is not the problem or a big factor.

Lets say I have £500 to spend.

Need to have :
A multiposition switch to limit speed 5mph/10mph but able to climb relatively steep inclines so plenty of torque. The current 3 speed switch seems to limit power rather than speed ( thats how it seems )
"Normal speed" upto 25ish
The main thing is and I have had some ( LOADS ! ) help, but in truth, was not successful or should I say, not good enough for what I was needed.. It's a slow/soft start the main thing, these things and am sure it's been discussed many times, the leap away when you turn the throttle ( that is eventually as seem to turn the throttle a long way till things start to happen ). This needs to be soft and silky smooth These guys Range Rovers that have been converted to EV using Tesla guts, they want silky smooth on these trikes as well ..

To me, I would imaging all this can be done with a suitable programmable speed controller, which is where I am struggling, but I have no doubt you guys will just point me at the right place, ideally if it could handle upto 2000w that would be perfect

Other upgrades I have on the list:

• The brake lines !!! SHOCKING They manufacturers seem to have a one size fits all, which means brake lines are chafing on various parts, so I'll be changing them out for Stainless Braided hose of the correct lengths and they will be appropriately routed and fixed.

• All fasteners, wow, obviously they are using the cheapest possible, so they are getting changed for Stainless rather than Zinc coated Chinesium toffee steel.

• On the frame, I have noticed on the few I have have seen and repaired for people that there are a few places of weakness and suffer with stress fractures, my repair have been to please and reinforce 2 parts of the frame which in fairness only takes around 30mins including the welding. Which again has shown up the quality of the steel used, just plain nasty...

• The handlebar headstock ( not sure what it's called in this world ), the current thing, is this horrible cast ally thing, where the screws/both which clamp just rip threads out and the internal serrations just round over as the metal is so soft, I have redesigned this part and it is now made out of a billet alloy ( mate owns engineering company so selected it for me ), uses some funky wire erosion machine to make them for me, well cool to watch !

• Currently the only wiring that is not touched is that from the motor, all the other wiring is "adjusted" as appropriate so you don't have a birds nest hidden away, but a nice tidy loom, with better connectors.

• Lastly, another small change to the frame, on the left side is a mount for a side stand which is used when the frame is used for a single rear wheel, this ankle/calf ripping device is removed.

The list I currently do seems huge when noted down, but it's less than 4 hours work to be honest, I just can't think of anything else that needs to be done to make these things better, please if you can think of something let me know


P.S. I'm not footing the bill for this, just making them "right" with a healthy budget.
And yes, they are landed for less than the budget I have for the speed controller side of things, but hey, they are well aware of this and don't care, the joys of having money to burn I guess !

 

[amberwolf]

It has a 1500w motor ( Chinese Watts :wink: ) and 60v 20Ah Battery..

In it's current state, it does around 45kph ( again, Chinese kph lol ) using GPS around 27-29mph. In truth speed is not the problem or a big factor.

A multiposition switch to limit speed 5mph/10mph but able to climb relatively steep inclines so plenty of torque. The current 3 speed switch seems to limit power rather than speed ( thats how it seems )

First, does it already climb those hills, at the speed you need it to, without overheating?

If not, then you will have to change the gearing to the motor to give you the torque needed, at that speed, to do this successfully.

Or, change the motor/cotnroller/battery system to provide the amount of power necessary to go that speed up that incline, which if it's really slow compared to your regular riding speed is not going to be able to also ride at that higher speed, without either a lot of excess power / heat dissipation capability only needed for the hills, or multiple gear ratios between motor and wheel.


The slower you go, vs what the motor is geared to operate at, but still using high power levels, the less work the motor does with taht power, and the more of it just goes into heating up the system. Thats' how people meltdown motors.


Regarding the speed control:

Here's the thing. With most controllers, throttle controls motor voltage, PWM, basically it's speed. So if you limit speed, you do it by limiting throttle. This limits the ability of the mtoor to supply power.

With a current (torque) based throttle type of controller, like just about any of the FOC's I know of. So you are directly controller motor torque (climbing ability). So you aren't really controlling speed, per se, but applying the right amount of torque to maintain a certain speed.

The system still has to be geared right, and or have enough extra power, to do the work asked of it.


So, why exactly do you want a 5-10mph speed limit?

If it is so that you can climb the inclines, then that's not how you do that. You change gears.

If it is for some legal reason, then there are a few solutions, but they all involve limiting the throttle to do so, which will limit motor power.


I don't know if any of these have a switchable speed limit. However, you can use the Cycle Analyst v3 to get three "presets" that can be used to limit to three different speeds (like 5, 10, and unlimited), if you like. The CA will read the speed sensor, and then adjust throttle to ensure speed doesn't exceed the limit, but otherwise will leave the throttle the way the rider is using it, so ti works better tahn the typical 3-speed switch on a controller, which just automaticlaly takes a percentage of the throttle away, preventing *any* throttle above that limit....so it doesn't really limit the speed itself.

This needs to be soft and silky smooth

Then you want a current (torque) throttle type of controller, like the various FOC types.

 

[sdparkes66]

It has a 1500w motor ( Chinese Watts :wink: ) and 60v 20Ah Battery..

In it's current state, it does around 45kph ( again, Chinese kph lol ) using GPS around 27-29mph. In truth speed is not the problem or a big factor.

A multiposition switch to limit speed 5mph/10mph but able to climb relatively steep inclines so plenty of torque. The current 3 speed switch seems to limit power rather than speed ( thats how it seems )

First, does it already climb those hills, at the speed you need it to, without overheating?

Good question, I've not tried to be honest

The slower you go, vs what the motor is geared to operate at, but still using high power levels, the less work the motor does with taht power, and the more of it just goes into heating up the system. Thats' how people meltdown motors.

Makes sense.

Regarding the speed control:

Here's the thing. With most controllers, throttle controls motor voltage, PWM, basically it's speed. So if you limit speed, you do it by limiting throttle. This limits the ability of the motor to supply power.

With a current (torque) based throttle type of controller, like just about any of the FOC's I know of. So you are directly controller motor torque (climbing ability). So you aren't really controlling speed, per se, but applying the right amount of torque to maintain a certain speed.

The system still has to be geared right, and or have enough extra power, to do the work asked of it.

Gearing is fixed, no sprockets, motor is directing into the differential, so major working to work with gear ratios.

So, why exactly do you want a 5-10mph speed limit?

Has been requested by the client for the location they use them ( golf courses )

If it is so that you can climb the inclines, then that's not how you do that. You change gears.

yep, get that now

I don't know if any of these have a switchable speed limit. However, you can use the Cycle Analyst v3 to get three "presets" that can be used to limit to three different speeds (like 5, 10, and unlimited), if you like. The CA will read the speed sensor, and then adjust throttle to ensure speed doesn't exceed the limit, but otherwise will leave the throttle the way the rider is using it, so ti works better than the typical 3-speed switch on a controller, which just automatically takes a percentage of the throttle away, preventing *any* throttle above that limit....so it doesn't really limit the speed itself.

Ok, will get some ordered
Found this supplier, do you know if there is one in the UK ?
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/cycle-analysts.html

Then you want a current (torque) throttle type of controller, like the various FOC types.

( Whats and FOC and where can I get one !? )


Thanks so much for taking the time to open my eyes and answer my questions, really do appreciate it, a lot of what you have said is common sense, which I obviously missed lol !

I had a chat with them early this morning ( they are in a way different TZ ), turns out they are happy to limit the speed by just taking a bit more care when on the course, but the "Silky Smooth" is still big on their agenda..

 

[amberwolf]

First, does it already climb those hills, at the speed you need it to, without overheating?

Good question, I've not tried to be honest

Doesn't answer the question, though.

Gearing is fixed, no sprockets, motor is directing into the differential, so major working to work with gear ratios.

What does "directing into the differential" mean? Pictures may help, if you need to work around this.

Has been requested by the client for the location they use them ( golf courses )

Ah. Then since those are probably the inclines you're talking about, they're probably short and not very steep. So in that case, you probably wont' melt any motors on them. Thus, you could use a speed limit safely enough, if they are indeed not steep and not long. Using a temperature sensor inside the motor would be best

(since you dont' specify slope and length, and all the ohter necessary details, all we can do is make a assumptions and give you guesses about what you can do. )

Ok, will get some ordered
Found this supplier, do you know if there is one in the UK ?
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/cycle-analysts.html

I"m sure there is, but I don't know which one might have the CAv3 in stock. Before you order you need to know which kind to get, as there are various versions and accessories you must choose from.

Based on the little info we have so far, I'm pretty sure you need the CA v3.x (3.14 is latest AFAIK), DPS version (so you get the standalone shunt and speed sensor, rather than having to deal with controller wiring, motor magnets/halls, and shunt values, etc).
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/cycle-analysts/ca3-dps.html
I would also recommend the "three speed switch"
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/ca-accessories/aux-input/ca3-switch.html
and the temperature sensor
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/ca-accessories/temp-sensors/ca3-therm.html
for each unit, as well as just one of these
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/ca-accessories/cables/ca-usb.html
so you can program each one to the same setup (or whatever it needs) easily and quickly, and save that setup locally so you can put it back whenever someone screws it up (or even lock settings out so some of them can't be changed by the user).

The CA is not plug and play; you'll have to set it up for your specific equipment and situation. It's not hard to setup, but you need to go thru the complete setup process (in the manual, and/or the UUG, linked on the CA3 product page) with a complete system, then test it under the conditions it will be used under, to be sure it works as desired. Then fine tune as necessary.

( Whats and FOC and where can I get one !? )

FOC is field oriented control, and usually is called an FOC controller. THere are a bunch, but which one you need depends on your specific system and usage needs. It's likely that the Phaserunner will do whatever you need, but I don't have enough info yet.
https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/phaserunner.html

 

[sdparkes66]

First, does it already climb those hills, at the speed you need it to, without overheating?

Good question, I've not tried to be honest

Doesn't answer the question, though.
[/quote]
I'll ( all being well )\this tomorrow

Gearing is fixed, no sprockets, motor is directing into the differential, so major working to work with gear ratios.

What does "directing into the differential" mean? Pictures may help, if you need to work around this.

Sorry, typo, "direct", axle has a differential, and the motor is bolted directly to the diff, motor has a small gear which meshes to the ring gear where you would normally have an input shaft. ( hope that helps until i get photo's )

Has been requested by the client for the location they use them ( golf courses )

Ah. Then since those are probably the inclines you're talking about, they're probably short and not very steep. So in that case, you probably wont' melt any motors on them. Thus, you could use a speed limit safely enough, if they are indeed not steep and not long. Using a temperature sensor inside the motor would be best

(since you dont' specify slope and length, and all the ohter necessary details, all we can do is make a assumptions and give you guesses about what you can do. )

Slopes can be quite steep, 33% ish around 500yards .. But even then, it would not be continuous as the rider would stop every 200-250 yards..

Ok, will get some ordered
Found this supplier, do you know if there is one in the UK ?
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/cycle-analysts.html

I"m sure there is, but I don't know which one might have the CAv3 in stock. Before you order you need to know which kind to get, as there are various versions and accessories you must choose from.

Based on the little info we have so far, I'm pretty sure you need the CA v3.x (3.14 is latest AFAIK), DPS version (so you get the standalone shunt and speed sensor, rather than having to deal with controller wiring, motor magnets/halls, and shunt values, etc).
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/cycle-analysts/ca3-dps.html
I would also recommend the "three speed switch"
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/ca-accessories/aux-input/ca3-switch.html
and the temperature sensor
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/ca-accessories/temp-sensors/ca3-therm.html
for each unit, as well as just one of these
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/ca-accessories/cables/ca-usb.html
so you can program each one to the same setup (or whatever it needs) easily and quickly, and save that setup locally so you can put it back whenever someone screws it up (or even lock settings out so some of them can't be changed by the user).

The CA is not plug and play; you'll have to set it up for your specific equipment and situation. It's not hard to setup, but you need to go thru the complete setup process (in the manual, and/or the UUG, linked on the CA3 product page) with a complete system, then test it under the conditions it will be used under, to be sure it works as desired. Then fine tune as necessary.

Photo's tomorrow

( Whats and FOC and where can I get one !? )

FOC is field oriented control, and usually is called an FOC controller. THere are a bunch, but which one you need depends on your specific system and usage needs. It's likely that the Phaserunner will do whatever you need, but I don't have enough info yet.
https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/phaserunner.html

Just read that, and yes, looks like could be what I need !!!
Emails, specs and photos need to be gather and sent I think


Thanks again for taking the time to reply, it's much appreciated