Pikes Peak Race--Entering?

I think we are long way off from there being a sanctioning body setting rules for E-bikes. I think that Pikes-Peak is a great venue, but there has to be several places around the country that would be great for some type of get-together. Clearly, the entity that offers prizes will set the rules for whatever type of race results. If its configured in a way that captures the publics imagination, then the advertising dollars will follow.

If I was rich, I'd start this just for the fun of it. But, I think there should be several classes, even as early as we now find ourselves in the evolution process of E-bike competition.
 
Bill,

"deer leaping onto the road in front of me--don't laugh, it happens more often than you might think, etc."

Not laughing. I have had dogs, deer, wild turkeys, geese, turtles, vultures, owls, foxes, snakes, etc. in the road. And they don't all do the sensible thing.

Warren
 
It is fun thinking about the Pikes Peak climb using Josh's rules. Climbing 12.42 miles, using 500 Wh's, means you get to use 40.26 Wh/mi. You should be able to build, a 750 watt continuous, RC mid-drive, with 500 Wh of lipo, into a typical road racing bicycle, for a total of 45 pounds. In a tuck, a typical 150-160 pound racer could ride it up a 7% average grade, without pedaling, at about 20 mph. A fit bicyclist could add 200 watts to that for 23-24 mph. A world class rider could add 500 watts, for 28-29 mph!
 
Hm.. how about NOBRA :twisted: Not Organized Bicycle Racing Association :lol:
No rules, no money, no liability, no registration, no organization.

You get up the hill fastest, and you win.
You are welcome to use a motorcycle frame, putting yourself at a handicap of hundreds of pounds.

There is no central authority; whoever wants to start a race or participate in one may do so.

...
.......

Oh wait; that's how things are already. Awesome! :mrgreen:
 
Tell that to liveforphysics, who beat a suzuki gsx-r from 0-80mph with an extended length bmx frame, $800 motor, some lipo, and a well tuned sevcon.

[youtube]Sk_bmSRog-c[/youtube]

If we are talking about a hill climb, then an electric bike is going to be superior in every way.
In the past, gas bikes and electric bikes have raced together, so why not? great opportunity to convert some unbelievers.
 
"Tell that to liveforphysics, who beat a suzuki gsx-r from 0-80mph with an extended length bmx frame, $800 motor, some lipo, and a well tuned sevcon."

I am sure Luke would be the first to tell you he has access to a machine shop, a TIG welder, a dyno, and an electronics engineer who knows how to tune that Sevcon. You couldn't begin to calculate what all that is worth.
 
neptronix said:
Tell that to liveforphysics, who beat a suzuki gsx-r from 0-80mph with an extended length bmx frame, $800 motor, some lipo, and a well tuned sevcon.

[youtube]Sk_bmSRog-c[/youtube]

If we are talking about a hill climb, then an electric bike is going to be superior in every way.
In the past, gas bikes and electric bikes have raced together, so why not? great opportunity to convert some unbelievers.


yeah and you could buy an ice at a fraction of the price and still win pikes peak with it. You mentioned lipo batteries and sevcon controller but how much do they cost? Are you sure that motor he is using is only $800? That's the new price?

I agree with you though that everything is fine as it is...why make limits etc when you have less than 10 riders showing up year after year anyway.

When do more than 10 electric bikes show up to any race?
 
Green Machine said:
why make limits etc when you have less than 10 riders showing up year after year anyway.
Um... maybe because there is no point when "no limits" is just a wallet contest.
 
Warren said:
I am sure Luke would be the first to tell you he has access to a machine shop, a TIG welder, a dyno, and an electronics engineer who knows how to tune that Sevcon. You couldn't begin to calculate what all that is worth.

Green Machine said:
You mentioned lipo batteries and sevcon controller but how much do they cost? Are you sure that motor he is using is only $800? That's the new price?

2kw-hr of RC Lipo can be had for just around $1000.
Goldenmotor Canada is selling Luke's motor for $770 brand new:

http://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/72-Volt-10KW-BLDC-Motor.html

You do not need a sevcon to drive it, a high end golden motor controller can be used.. or you could use a double stator etek style brushed motor ( cheaper than the 10kW golden motor unit ) and a brushed controller ( way cheap!! ) to push an equivalent amount of power.

Total for a dual stator etek sized battery-motor-controller combo can come in under $2,500.

You don't need a TIG welder or machine shop to put a custom bike frame together.
You can MIG weld a frame together with a lesser steel, or make a custom swing arm / extend dropouts, like John in CR, ZombieSS, nechaus, farfle, and many others have done.

Luke's build was expensive, but you can do it far cheaper with less money.

You guys are complaining about a wallet contest? well, let's look at historically who has won the race:

Optibike: >$10,000 bikes
FFR trikes: >$6,000 bikes

Meanwhile, if FFR trikes would have not entered, itchynackers would have won with his $1,600 budget build. My $1,700 magic pie rig could have provided some competition too.

One of John in CR's budget builds could have probably taken the #1 spot. He probably has the highest kilowatt of power per dollar ratio on the forums.

So it definitely is not a battle of the dollars. High power electric drive is still evolving, and that is exactly the beauty of it.
 
Well with limits it becomes an athletic contest....

I don't know many athletes who ride around and are into electric bikes...oh maybe half of the optibike riding team...and Josh is fairly athletic actually. I bet Josh could make it to the top of pikes on human power. And half the optibike team could as well.

The whole point of electric bike race IMO is the machine not the skill or athletic prowess of the rider.

Can you imagine the future when mercenary pro cyclists start to get accused of doping after winning a race for a mega million dollar e-bike factory team? :mrgreen: yeah i know ridiculous.

Actually watt limits would make it a cheaters contest. Whoever has the audacity, ethos, and know how to cheat wins.

Secret switches etc.

Watt limits are nearly impossible to police so why bother?

That is why i suggested weight.

But who cares?

The first point should be to get more than 10 riders to show up to an electric bike event....

As an example at this pikes peak race..with all the talk and banter on this thread really only 3 entities showed up...optibike, ffr trikes, and Itchy. Same as in previous years...very bad turn out.

Why sit here and theorize on what limits and rules there should be when there is such little participation?
 
Green Machine said:
Actually watt limits would make it a cheaters contest. Whoever has the audacity, ethos, and know how to cheat wins.

Exactly.

Green Machine said:
Why sit here and theorize on what limits and rules there should be when there is such little participation?

Yeah, no kidding. Why have limits though? last time i checked, they don't limit cars or motorcycles up pike's peak.

You want an athletic contest? go ride a pedal bike up the hill. Have fun. Everyone has a different idea of what an electric bike should be.

You want a efficiency contest? that's what an electrathon is.

A watt limit would give you both of those things simultaneously. But that means everyone ends up with an optibike-esque mid drive setup. That means everyone is eventually competing based on what the best mid drive setup is, and eventually it becomes a butt staring contest when everyone is using the same components ( or equivalent ) and you end up with what i call 'e-lycra' dominating the race.
 
"A watt limit would give you both of those things simultaneously. But that means everyone ends up with an optibike-esque mid drive setup. That means everyone is eventually competing based on what the best mid drive setup is, and eventually it becomes a butt staring contest when everyone is using the same components ( or equivalent ) and you end up with what i call 'e-lycra' dominating the race."

That would be utopia for me, Safe, Bill, Josh, and three other people on the planet. :)

Yeah, but I agree about butt staring contests, and e-lycra. I would be bored too.
 
I think claimer strata are simple and effective.

Just for example:
  • $500
    $1000
    $2000
    Unlimited/no-claim

No limits on power, weight, capacity - just the bux.

If a dipstick wants to spend $1000 and race in the $500 class just to win... his/her choice, at the peril of having to sell.

All manner of ingenuity and sweat equity can be brought to bear with no scrutineering and not a wallet contest.

Of course, I would have a non-power segment or qualifier.
 
http://gazettextra.com/news/2012/aug/07/janesville-man-uses-his-head-legs-overcome-mountai/ While all you guys are fumbling/arguing about rules..... :mrgreen:
 
TylerDurden said:
I think claimer strata are simple and effective.

Just for example:
  • $500
    $1000
    $2000
    Unlimited/no-claim

No limits on power, weight, capacity - just the bux.

If a dipstick wants to spend $1000 and race in the $500 class just to win... his/her choice, at the peril of having to sell.

All manner of ingenuity and sweat equity can be brought to bear with no scrutineering and not a wallet contest.

Of course, I would have a non-power segment or qualifier.

If I was building for a claimer race I might use my own undocumented electronics and mechanical parts where possible. It would not be maintainable for anyone else if they were silly enough to buy it.

No matter the rules or not, the gaming is on.

Have fun,
 
Hi Folks,

Thanks for the comments and Ideas.

As E bikes develop, and become accepted into the Main Stream of life around the world, Limits will keep them legal.

DOT has strived to offer us an opportunity, where we are not Mopeds, Low powered scooters, scooters, or motorcycles.

But, we are Bicycles, with a legally allowed assist, for the average Joe, and others to do their best with. I am not able
to do Pikes Peak without assist, and really wouldn't try it. It's an ass kicking long climb, and I am not into killing
myself. But, with the assist, I am able to ride with world class riders who can climb 12% for hours on end. So, I love
the opportunity to experience the ride, at super human speeds.

This type of 750 watt limit E bike racing, could open the door to factory E bike companies to go head to head, with
good riders, and better equipment, for the value created for all. Race developed technologies. It will help the
E bike designers to put value on the most efficient systems, like helical cut reductions, and running the power
through a gear set to reduce current draw. It will push the development of the Best E bikes. Let's call it 1,000 watts
through the cycle analyst, for around 750 at the wheel.

We need 1,000 watt hours to get to the top of pikes peak, at 500 watt draw, with a 200 lb rider, who ain't Lance. This
is the opportunity, as racing is about conserving energy, when the fuel is capped to scarce resources. I hope to see
the Audi Team, the Cannondale/Bosche Drive team, the Mitubishi team, the E motion team, the Aerobic Crusiers team,
Runbout, Optibike, FRR, and Hot shot Newbies who come to the table with something to say. This technology is the
cutting edge, and with some guidlelines, we can see some safe racing bloom into something, possibly get some TV
coverage, and crack this nut, to get some recognition, and sales. Then, we will see the developments leapfrog into
the future, where we will see fuel cells, super Caps, and who knows what for the next wizzbang tech to power our
electric drive systems.

Now, if anybody can enter, whatever they scraped together, like 300 volts on a pair of fork lift motors, and somebody
misses a turn and rolls into a ball of fire causing another forest fire disaster, than it's all over. Nobody wins. We
just can not have some E tech Motorcycle guys come in, and wreck it on us. Nobody needs to see someone get
really hurt, when somebodies strapped on lipo pack goes POP, like we see in the model Aircraft world. We have
to self regulate, until a sanction is developed to not only keep it safe, but to allow for our craft to Bloom.

With all that said, I want everyone to enter into their local rides, and ride with the roadies as much as possible,
to let them know that we are contenders. Let them know that we need to be taken seriously.
Let's work together to develop a new racing entity to provide for regulations to move our industry forward.

I propose, NEBRA, the National Electric Bicycle Racing Association.


Peace, Josh K.
 
Allright; so we arrive at this point again.

If you want to follow the federal standard for ebikes, it's 20mph maximum and 750w.

CPSC rules stipulate that low speed electric bicycles[27] (to include two- and three-wheel vehicles) are exempt from classification as motor vehicles providing they have fully operable pedals, an electric motor of less than 750W (1 hp), and a top motor-powered speed of less than 20 miles per hour (32 km/h) when operated by a rider weighing 170 pounds.[28] An electric bike remaining within these specifications will be regarded simply as a bicycle for purposes of federal law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#Federal_laws_and_regulations

It is an even worse butt-staring contest when you are speed limited as well. It can only boil down to a competition of the fittest and lightest rider, after everyone is using the same mid-drive components.
 
We really need to come to agreement on defining an ebike. Why not race against motorcycles? I think all ebike events need to have a qualifying where you pedal only for a half mile or something.

What is the goal of our community? Is it to have 10kw 40lb ebikes with 200 mile range and cost $1000? What is the direction we want ebikes to go? Do we want 20% of the population using these ebikes for transportation, and let them be treated like bicycles? Would this be a success?

If we can define the endgame, then maybe we can compete properly.
 
I want 100kw 10lb electric bicycle that needs no insutance or inspection and goes 5000km on a charge. But I will have to settle for less...
Thing is the whole world has gone the wrong way. EVERYTHING is you have to PAY pay pay pay PAY. I want Fun for free. Thats what ebikes are FUN FOR FREE! If they are 15000-30000 watts like mine are now or faster with more weight then I want at 85lbs with hub motors and ~70lbs with RC. Then its fun. I keep to my self but If I have a car trying stuppid shit I have the power to leave them behind.

FUN FOR FREE!
 
Arlo1 said:
EVERYTHING is you have to PAY pay pay pay PAY. I want Fun for free. Thats what ebikes are FUN FOR FREE! If they are 15000-30000 watts like mine are now or faster with more weight then I want at 85lbs with hub motors and ~70lbs with RC. Then its fun. I keep to my self but If I have a car trying stuppid shit I have the power to leave them behind.

FUN FOR FREE!

Yeah, that's what i like best about electric bicycles as well. They are the free-est thing, ever. I want to hang out in the legally murky territory as long as possible. Everyone wants to make rules, add taxes, tell you what you can and cannot do, regardless of whether you are hurting anyone or not. No principles to it, they just like it that way because they're on a power trip.

Why does this community need a goal? we are not an organization / legal entity. There are not teams. Stop thinking in absolutes. This is about having fun on two wheels. Build what you like and run it. Don't go around making rules so that everyone has to do what you do. That's just lame.
 
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