police e-bike crackdown

[Hillhater]

No, but the risk of causing serious injuries in an accident increases greatly with speed - that's just physics. That's why bicycles, which normally travel at speeds of less than 25 km/h, are allowed on our roads without insurance, whereas motor vehicles are subject to compulsory insurance

True, and also the availability of Ebikes, Escooters, etc ,..has dramaticaly increased the number of people using bikes compared to 10+ years ago when only enthusiastic fit folk Used bicycles regularly. Personally i know of , and see many ebike riders who would never have contemplated ( or been able) using a pedal powered bicycle.
Inreality, this means there are now a much larger number of relatively inexperienced/ unskilled riders able to mix in with pedestrians and road traffic….all of which must not only increase the total number of bikes in use, but also the % of incidents per 1000 bike riders

 

[Papa]

We don't have a 'speed pedelec' or electric moped category here in the states,

Idaho 49-114, 9
(9) "Moped" means a limited-speed motor-driven cycle having wheels less than twenty (20) inches in diameter and:

(a) Motorized propulsion that is not capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed in excess of thirty (30) miles per hour on level ground, whether two (2) or three (3) wheels are in contact with the ground during operation. If an internal combustion engine is used, the displacement shall not exceed fifty (50) cubic centimeters and the moped shall have a power drive system that functions directly or automatically without clutching or shifting by the operator after the drive system is engaged; or

(b) Two (2) wheels or three (3) wheels with no pedals, which is powered solely by electrical energy, has an automatic transmission, a motor which produces less than two (2) gross brake horsepower, is capable of propelling the device at a maximum speed of not more than thirty (30) miles per hour on level ground and, as originally manufactured, meets federal motor vehicle safety standards for motor-driven cycles. A moped is not required to be titled and no motorcycle endorsement is required for its operator.

 

[scianiac]

Many states have such classifications for mopeds and scooters, the problem is they usually require registration, insurance, sometimes even inspections, a license, etc, etc. None of which you can even do to 99% of "ebikes". And what is the point of going through all that only to end up with something that is more limited than a motorcycle and not much cheaper when a motorcycle has nearly the exact same requirements. Generally the only additional requirement for a motorcycle is a motorcycle endorsement which if you can't pass that test you have no business riding it anyway.

And that is only one small factor in this very large and complex situation we've found ourselves in. I think though you can probably pretty much trace every cause back to some governmental body. There are lots of causes but they pretty much all lead there, like the moped laws above, ebike laws that don't make sense, poor public transit, overly car-centric infrastructure, lack of enforcement, etc etc.

 

[Stealth_Chopper]

So lunacycle is still the bane, <<< old English poison >>>>, of socal's existance huh

Eric Hick's profitability with hit$ after hit$ of money making electric vehicles , his Green Machine history of endless-sphere or
Chalo's typewritten commentary are the bane of several members of endless-sphere Persona, Shadow, Anima, & Self.

 

[gromike]

I have an emoto now if I want speed, but build 35mph on the level ebikes. Feel safer in the lane of travel at the speed of the road.
Finished/built this eblke and it is crazy quick, but only a 350w front hub motor:

You be pedaling, but this thing is crazy quick. You don't need a huge amount of power to make a fast ebike.
People are buying these SUV ebikes, that break the 3 rules. They are heavy monsters that go in a straight line OK, but a quick change of direction and a disaster ensues.

 

[stancecoke]

There is a discussion about the maximum assistance ratio and peak power in Germany, but not about the existing speed limit:

ZIV positions itself on future EPAC regulations - ZIV – German Bicycle Industry

Berlin, 8 April 2025 | A number of EU ministries announced even before the 2024 European elections that they would be revising various legal regulations after the elections. New regulations for vehicles were also announced, which would also involve revising the existing EPAC regulations. The ZIV...

www.ziv-zweirad.de

It considers the following additional parameters to be characteristic of an EPAC:

• support ratio of 1:4 and
• support ratio of 1:6 possible up to max. 15 km/h and
• max. assistance power of 750 W at the drive wheel

This would be the end of simple PAS systems, a torquesensor to get the riders power would be mandatory.
A good idea in principle, but for people with a handicap, who can't apply much power to the pedals this would be a disadvantage....

 

[rafalg]

If there's a speed limit enforced, why muddy the waters further with some assistance limitations?

Cars don't have a power limit, you can drive any ridiculously overpowered beast, all good as long as you don't get caught speeding. And famous Autobahns don't even have speed limits everywhere.
And this is fine, car owners can do whatever they wish, there's no built-in lock that enforces any limits. But when it comes to the little guy trying to ride his puny bike: OH NO, he got too much POWA! Lets make his life harder now, because he's apparently too stupid and irresponsible to ride.
Maybe some kind of license would be a solution for those that want to go faster than 15 km/h? Seems to work for cars...

 

[stancecoke]

Cars don't have a power limit

Cars must be insured when driving on public roads. This means that anyone who is involved in an accident is covered. Bicycles do not have compulsory insurance.
This is a simple but important difference.
If you seriously injure someone without having insurance, who will pay for medical care, loss of earnings, and all the other possible consequential costs?

 

[rafalg]

You can hurt someone even when your ebike is locked down - so this doesn't solve the financial responsibility problems.
Ebikes are locked already to 25 km/h limit, so you can't go faster even when you're feeling lucky.
Why add another limit on power then? Does it solve anything, or just make the ebikes more crippled?
I dont think i would need 750w in a city bike, but some people have hills, or go offroad, or just don't want to pedal all the time...

BTW maybe i'm just stupidly picky, there's a 250W limit already on motor power, but it seems so low that nobody treats it seriously..

 

[stancecoke]

You can hurt someone even when your ebike is locked down -

Yes, but the possible injuries are less serious. See #95
And of course, you can ride your EPAC faster than 25kph, if you use your legs, it doesn't break activly above the motor limit

there's a 250W limit already on motor power

That's the rated continuous output, the peak power is not limited so far.

Power in the context of the drive unit

Power is measured and indicated in watts (W). It is responsible for how fast you can ride: The higher the power, the hig…

help.bosch-ebike.com

 

[rafalg]

you can ride your EPAC faster than 25kph, if you use your legs, it doesn't break activly above the motor limit

Oh, thats good, hopefully they don't build an implant that limits your knee movements when riding
But, if there's a speed limit already, does it matter if you used your legs or not if you're above that?
Motor is supposed to assist you only until 25 km/h, everything above that is your own achievement
So i still don't see the reason to regulate how the assist works and whether the motor is 250W or 2500W.

 

[Papa]

I think though you can probably pretty much trace every cause back to some governmental body. There are lots of causes but they pretty much all lead there, like the moped laws above, ebike laws that don't make sense, poor public transit, overly car-centric infrastructure, lack of enforcement, etc etc.

The following is from: Electric Bikes | PeopleForBikes (its intent (and has been since 2014)... is to lobby every state's Legislators to create and force e-bike conformity nation wide. They were directly responsible for butchering Idaho's Statutes in 2017.

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/static.peopleforbikes.org/docs/Model%20eBike%20Legislation.pdf

 

[aroundqube]

New Jersey Spotlight News , the state owned television , has reported on the critical violations by operators of e-Bikes , and those stand on top of electric skateboards with steering that are reported as scooters.The result of all news sources is that legislators announce that they will write laws to address this. If you watch the video there is a security camera recording of an e-Bike collision with a motor vehicle .https://www.njspotlightnews.org/video/push-for-new-regulations-as-e-bike-accidents-involving-children-on-the-rise/

A state legislator announced that proposed new laws will not be introduced until after the upcoming state elections, during the Lame Duck session.

 

[aroundqube]

The NJ State Legislature Bill S4834 passed the Senate with a unanimous vote. Amends existing legislation to require vehicle registration , operator license , and several insurance coverages . NJ Legislature

 

[gromike]

It's fitting that an east coast state ends the wild west of ebiking.

Probably ended a few years ago, but now it's there in lawyer speak, such as:
"In no case, however, shall the commissioner adopt a regulation permitting motorized bicycles to be operated on any highway with a posted speed in excess of 50 miles per hour."

 

[neptronix]

Hmm, it's my impression that NJ has some rough people and so legislators dole out the laws accordingly ( similar to NY/CA )

I'm again grateful i live in a long leash state ( exception: they hate alcohol here )

 

[docw009]

The NJ State Legislature Bill S4834 passed the Senate with a unanimous vote. Amends existing legislation to require vehicle registration , operator license , and several insurance coverages . NJ Legislature

It seems it has yet to pass the whole senate and then the house. They've been trying to do this for a few years though. I hope the local ebikers write their lawmakers.

In my town, a couple of pre-teen kids rat packing on ebikes has brought the wrath of the Police Chief on them, He just pushed thru a 16 years old age requirement on electric scooters/bikes. Class 3 banned on trails too, I did write in my objections. No one cares.

Going to be a couple hundred disappointed kids in town getting scooters they can't ride legally this Xmas.

 

[Nix Liou]

It seems it has yet to pass the whole senate and then the house. They've been trying to do this for a few years though. I hope the local ebikers write their lawmakers.

In my town, a couple of pre-teen kids rat packing on ebikes has brought the wrath of the Police Chief on them, He just pushed thru a 16 years old age requirement on electric scooters/bikes. Class 3 banned on trails too, I did write in my objections. No one cares.

Going to be a couple hundred disappointed kids in town getting scooters they can't ride legally this Xmas.

To be honest, I think I agree with 16 and up for class 2 or 3 ebikes. The number of children who come into various ebike communities asking about how to make a surron for $1000 before linking a mysterious listing off of alibaba is crazy... Zero regard for their own safety, let alone others.
I generally think some more fleshed out ebike regulation would be ideal, especially if various moped classifications could be reworked to be less archaic and useless. I don't think anyone I have talked to has gotten an ebike registered as a moped or motorcycle, and not for want of trying.

Meanwhile, I'll stick with my 500w mid drive...

 

[Papa]

I have been riding under the "electric assisted bicycle" banner for over 1/4 century now, and experienced absolutely NO conflicts, what-so-ever, with LEO's, pedestrians, fellow road users or private property owners. It is difficult to exceed 28 MPH on my home-brew rig because that's the maximum speed it was intentionally geared for. Frankly speaking, I was 'tickled pink' to be able to haul groceries, gofer hardware necessities, yard sales, or just plain ride with no rhyme or reason beyond simply unwinding on an otherwise hectic day. I tell those that ask... "it's my transportation freebe". I am damn serious and have always treated my privage with utmost respect... because I never wanted to risk losing it. Unfortunately....

I now harbor the constant fear of losing my 'free ride ticket', because ignorance and egotistical stupidity is running amuck... and Legislators are carving fresh 'pot holes' in my roadway to freedom... just because, I too ride (what they blindly perceive) as a potential problem. This is utter bullshit. We already have more than enough laws already on-the-books to curb the obvious problem.

In my, not so humble opinion....

If caught riding faster than 28 MPH, with or without functioning pedals, and/or no valid license plate on public asphalt, you should be cited (or have your pride'n joy conficated) for riding an unlawfull "motorcycle" on public asphalt.... because that's exactly what it is. If the rider is under the age of obtaining a legitimate driver's license to legally and safely operate said vehicle, then his/or her parents need to yank the kid's wheels... and "pay the piper".

 

[floydr]

If caught riding faster than 28 MPH, with or without functioning pedals, and/or no valid license plate on public asphalt, you should be cited (or have your pride'n joy conficated) for riding an unlawfull "motorcycle" on public asphalt.... because that's exactly what it is. If the rider is under the age of obtaining a legitimate driver's license to legally and safely operate said vehicle, then his/or her parents need to yank the kid's wheels... and "pay the piper".

Agree

 

[Xana]

A lot of Karen's in here

Kids are dumb but that shouldn't ruin it for others. Moped laws are currently old and stupid and should be updated. Calling a 150lb surron that hits 40mph out of the box a motorcycle is also stupid. Needing a motorcycle endorsement to ride a bike that is super easy to ride as it has no clutch or foot brake is stupid.

Cars don't have power limits so why should bikes? It's stupid. Require a drivers license and insurance then leave people alone. No stupid speed and power limits. Follow the speed limit of the road.

 

[Papa]

A lot of Karen's in here

Kids are dumb but that shouldn't ruin it for others. Moped laws are currently old and stupid and should be updated. Calling a 150lb surron that hits 40mph out of the box a motorcycle is also stupid. Needing a motorcycle endorsement to ride a bike that is super easy to ride as it has no clutch or foot brake is stupid.

Cars don't have power limits so why should bikes? It's stupid. Require a drivers license and insurance then leave people alone. No stupid speed and power limits. Follow the speed limit of the road.

So, in your opinion, 'we' should move towards a lawless society?

Kids are dumb but that shouldn't ruin it for others.

Kids are NOT dumb, just lack respect, foresight and parental guidance. Not unlike many adult "kids" I know.

 

[Nix Liou]

Calling a 150lb surron that hits 40mph out of the box a motorcycle is also stupid. Needing a motorcycle endorsement to ride a bike that is super easy to ride as it has no clutch or foot brake is stupid.

A car is also very easy to drive- almost no new ones are manual at this point even. But that doesn't mean a license shouldn't be required to use one.
IMO, it's mostly about how much damage you could cause, and forcing accountability onto the operator for a dangerous piece of machinery.

Cars don't have power limits so why should bikes? It's stupid

I mostly agree, but primarily because bike lanes don't really exist (painted gutters don't count) in the US. I think we need to have grade separated bike paths, with specific speed limits for the bike paths. Power levels are hard to measure and enforce.

But I also understand that having a power limit (and thus max speed) of an unlicensed vehicle is a pretty basic way to keep classes of licensed/unlicensed things demarcated, so it's kind of fine.

Kids are NOT dumb, just lack respect, foresight

Many would consider lack of respect and foresight to be dumb
I only label kids as dumb after they don't listen to people telling them not to do the dumb thing (as long as the reason is explained). Burning your hand on the stove is fine for learning but crashing your surron into a pedestrian is collateral damage.

 

[Xana]

A car is also very easy to drive- almost no new ones are manual at this point even. But that doesn't mean a license shouldn't be required to use one.
IMO, it's mostly about how much damage you could cause, and forcing accountability onto the operator for a dangerous piece of machinery.

I mostly agree, but primarily because bike lanes don't really exist (painted gutters don't count) in the US. I think we need to have grade separated bike paths, with specific speed limits for the bike paths. Power levels are hard to measure and enforce.

But I also understand that having a power limit (and thus max speed) of an unlicensed vehicle is a pretty basic way to keep classes of licensed/unlicensed things demarcated, so it's kind of fine.

Many would consider lack of respect and foresight to be dumb
I only label kids as dumb after they don't listen to people telling them not to do the dumb thing (as long as the reason is explained). Burning your hand on the stove is fine for learning but crashing your surron into a pedestrian is collateral damage.

We both know a car is not equivalent to something like a surron. Cars are much harder to drive and much more dangerous for other people if you mess up compared to a suped up ebike. If someone on a bike messes up the odds are they only take out themselves. I'm 100% okay with needing a regular license and insurance, registration is another matter

If we want registration than they need to make it a lot easier to accomplish. Getting insurance should also be made a lot easier. I've already been denied insurance once for my bike and i'm actually trying to do the right thing currently so this topic is a sore spot. You can't even get full coverage, at best I can only have liability and it seems like progressive might be the only one to even accept my bike. The system is bs.

 

[Xana]

So, in your opinion, 'we' should move towards a lawless society?


Kids are NOT dumb, just lack respect, foresight and parental guidance. Not unlike many adult "kids" I know.

I think your reading comprehension is failing you. I clearly said I was ok with requiring a regular license and insurance so I'm not sure how you got "lawless society" out of that.

I think needing a motorcycle endorsement is stupid and I think treating something like a surron the same as a traditional motorcycle is also stupid. Make a new class for these bikes that better represent what they are.