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I was thinking that I could just let off the accelerator, but is there a controller that will do that? Keep it under a certain amp flow? and the hp will taper down until its about as much as pedaling ( under 4-500 rpm, in my highest pedaling gear)...not with electric motors even with a 5 to 1 gear reduction...?
 
The magic pie 3 from Gary at goldenmotor.ca is what I use
When going 10-15kmh up a steep hill you use about 250-350 watts, and if you spin the pedals really fast in an easy gear you can get up to 20kmh with the same wattage.
It seems the golden motor controller doesn't send more power than is needed.

The cyclone sends loads of power through the controller, creating lots of heat.

I have a cyclone kit sitting on my floor. That's where it belongs for now. I ride my Magic Pie 3 every day on the trails due to a lack of motivation to get a "real job" due to my YouTube channel earning money.
I would get a big golden motor car motor and use that as a cyclone setup with a huge 2000 lbs tensile strength industrial chain with 3kwh of lifepo4. But that is kind of overkill. I can pedal harder. I have to do cardio anyway so might as well do it to avoid buying a ridiculous kit.

If I was going up the steeper trails I would get a 24" wheel. That 8% torque advantage would just make it perfect, plus a lot of DH bikes starting from 10 years ago used 24" rear wheels for some reason.

When I go up steep logging roads the Magic Pie shuts off when it gets really hot. The cyclone also shuts off when it gets really hot. I'd go for a 20" wheel in that instance, but who rides up logging roads every day?? Not even me and I have all day to ride.
 
I have a friend that needs some help up the hills,
300lbs (total combined) 8%grade 1/3rd HP+ pedaling a little, about 400 rpm 20” drive wheel in high gear(that’s about 12mph ground speed)…is it possible? with only a two stage reduction?
Actually 10mph is good enough.


OK this is wrong. I was confused by this http://sheldonbrown.com/gain.html
(25mm/ 170mm crank arms) x (12 sprockets/ 52 highest gears) = 6.47 gain ratio
(321868.8/ 6.47) / (170 x 2 x pi) = 46.09 crank rpms at 12 mph?

(26822.4 x 12) / (254 x 3.14) = 403.56 rpm? Wheel speed at 12mph
 
math check:

400 rpm on a typical 20" wheel is closer to 23mph. (standard 20x1.75 tire for calculations)

52t chainring & a 12t cog on the rear wheel? if so the wheel spins 4.33x faster than the cranks.

So at 15mph: the rear wheel is spinning 254rpm's & the cranks are turning 59rpm's
12mph: rear wheel @ 203 rpm's & cranks @ 47 rpm's

Is it your desire to power the cranks, or the rear wheel directly & leave the pedal drive independant?

plenty of small motor's that spin slow enough to drive the rear wheel in a 2-stage reduction. driving the cranks is more of a challange but anything is possible.
 
I was a little confused to see crank arm lengths in your original equasions, Arm lenght will only affect the tourque potentials exerted on the chain ring & will have no bearing on gear-ratio's or any speed calculations.

1 mile =5280 feet
20 mph = 105600 feet in 1 hour (60 minutes)

lets say a nominal 20" for a wheel diameter. pi x dia.= circumferance (the distance traveled in 1 rotation)
20" x 3.14159= 62.83" divide by 12 to get feet per revolution= 5.24'

105600/60 =1760 feet per minute
1760'/5.24=335.87 revolutions per minute.

335.87 wheel rpm's = 20mph in this senario.

If you figured a crank rotation you only need to know the gain ratio & wheel diameter.
example: 42-14=3 (a 3-1 ratio)

So for each crank rotation the bike advances 18.72' (using the 20" wheel above)
at 20mph this gives a pedal cadance of 94 per minute

using your 52-12 gearing & the theroetical 20" wheel:
52/12=4.33
so 1 crank revolution =22.69'
at 20mph the cadance is 77.56 per minute with the 20" wheel senario.

hope that makes sence....
 
1/3 hp ( 250W ) is only ever going to be a "little help" in any situation.
With 300lb on an 8 % grade, he is going to have to pedal hard still. :?
..that motor power is never going to drive 300lb up an 8% grade at even 10 mph
 
I agree, 250w isn't enough. If you end up being able to use 70% of that, that's only 175w to the ground.

If I was you I'd at least double the power...500w system/motor...350w to the ground...
 
Whipping out the calculator here:

250 watts, 300 pounds total, 8% grade, in mountain air (slightly less resistance than coastal) max speed at 100% efficiency is 4.9mph.

If you presume 70% efficiency, max speed is 3.5mph.

If you are an average guy in okay shape, you are capable of a sustained 100 watts of cardio (higher for sprints). So, with you pedaling:

350 watts, max speed at 100% efficiency is 6.8mph.
At 70% efficiency, 275wats total, 5.4mph.

This presumes you've geared it exactly for such. If you PWM the motor speed down, you will not be driving it with 250 watts. The only way to get the power is mechanical geardown and running your motor at full throttle.

... moving on, you say you want 12 mph?

12 mph, 300 pounds, 8% grade requires 638 watts. It breaks down as such:

Wind: 38
Rolling: 29
Grade: 571

Anyway, if you're pedaling, you're adding about a hundred watts, so, drop it down to 538 watts. Or, ~2/3hp at 100% efficiency. Close to a full horsepower at 70%. All this still running the motor flat out, no PWM, actually geared for that low of a speed.

Now, you say you just want him to have a hill booster. Well, even an extra 100 watts is nice, since that technically doubles your long-term cardio rate.
 
So if the drive wheel should spin about 200 rpm and the motor at 2500rpm http://www.cloudkartparts.com/product-p/mo-220-23.htm
I would need something like a 2” pulley on the motor to a 12” then the same size for sprockets for the second stage? Maybe even bigger on the wheel.
 
I need to see a photo or video of a well made two stage reduction to the rear wheel.
This is a good three stage reduction, he admits that it uses more power
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3UCgX_jMWA&feature=related

I am thinking of using a rim pulley on the drive wheel but it may be better to use a motor cycle sprocket. Don’t worry about power calculations; all I need now is clear photos of how to do it.
 
There are quite a few good photos, including 3D cad renders, of various reductions in many threads here in this subforum. There are also a lot in other parts of the forum, but probably harder to find. Probably the most-pictured one is the Recumpence drive and variations, both in his posts and others using it.

If you look on my electricle blog at blogspot, there are a few ways of doing a double reduction that were pondered, and pictured and described.
 
Our very own YPedal has an excellent build blog about his 2-stage Recumpence drive. Note that if you're OK with small wheels (e.g. 20" BMX/406mm) you can do quite well with one stage (my own experience detailed here). I've had this bike up to 37MPH, and that's using the 3210, not it's larger 3215 or 3220 brethren.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, you might be able to get enough total reduction with sprocket and wheel choice. Eliminating a stage of reduction makes placement and possibly alignment easier.
 
I have an idea that may seem a bit odd, I want to build a power system that has multiple speed ranges, yet have only a single gear.

I think it may be possible if I can switch between voltages, 12 volts for high torque hill climbing and up to 24 volts for cursing, still at legal speeds.

The two stage gear reduction would be set at about 10 or 12 mph for 12 volts peak efficiency rpm.
The only problem is how to do it? Is there a controller than could do it (possibly AC?)? Or would I need to rely on an elaborate switching system?
 
This topic has been discussed like a billion times. Im not sure why you would bother really.

But just for the record, I curse and ALL speeds!
 
heliolatrix said:
The only problem is how to do it?
The only problem is that it wouldn't work... :)

The maximum continuous torque output isn't significantly affected by the voltage and in any case that is variable with existing controllers.
 
Simple 3 speed switch to your controller. Or get one from Methtek that hooks up to any controller.
 
As has been said above, you really need to do a bit of research on permanent magnet motor characteristics and understand how current, torque, voltage, rpm and motor efficiency are interlinked.

As a general guide, voltage determines rpm and current determines torque. This means that, wholly unlike an internal combustion engine, you can have a high torque at a very low rpm, and pretty much the same torque over a wide rpm range. PM electric motors tend to be more efficient when run at lower than maximum current, so there is some merit in using variable gearing to keep the motor running within its most efficient operating range.

This changes the way you need to think about gearboxes with variable ratios. For an internal combustion engine the gearbox is essential as a torque multiplier for low speeds, to overcome the lack of torque that these engines produce when run at low rpm. For a PM electric motor the situation is very different, a gearbox is only needed to match the required wheel speed to the rpm range over which the motor will run efficiently. This is quite a wide rpm range in practice, so there is little need for a wide range of variable gear ratios.
 
Can some one tell me good book to read about this subject? hopfuly not too complex. something even I can understand?

Thanks for info, sounds good
 
heliolatrix said:
Can some one tell me good book to read about this subject? hopfuly not too complex. something even I can understand?
First chapter of this book is a good place to start:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gbIDM60AvGAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=hughes+drives&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nCKUUKbYBeTF0QWj_4DgCg&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA
 
Also: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lKs7xV_t5iIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=roland+buchi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3aZgT6jIIo-AhQfA3ITMBw&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=roland%20buchi&f=false
 
Jeremy Harris said:
As has been said above, you really need to do a bit of research on permanent magnet motor characteristics and understand how current, torque, voltage, rpm and motor efficiency are interlinked.

As a general guide, voltage determines rpm and current determines torque. This means that, wholly unlike an internal combustion engine, you can have a high torque at a very low rpm, and pretty much the same torque over a wide rpm range. PM electric motors tend to be more efficient when run at lower than maximum current, so there is some merit in using variable gearing to keep the motor running within its most efficient operating range.

This changes the way you need to think about gearboxes with variable ratios. For an internal combustion engine the gearbox is essential as a torque multiplier for low speeds, to overcome the lack of torque that these engines produce when run at low rpm. For a PM electric motor the situation is very different, a gearbox is only needed to match the required wheel speed to the rpm range over which the motor will run efficiently. This is quite a wide rpm range in practice, so there is little need for a wide range of variable gear ratios.


This should be wiki'd
 
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