proper bms

MikeD

1 mW
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
10
Location
Eugene, Oregon
After minor searching, i realized my question is kind of specific- and probably not answered in here. So maybe some of you can help;

Im looking at purchasing a 48v 24ah LG battery (3500mah), for a 3000w hub motor with a 60amp controller. I was asked what amp BMS i wanted, and am not sure. They suggested a 100a, but this sounds wrong to me. I am NOT an electrical whiz, so any help would be appreciated- Is this correct? If not, what size should i be asking for?

Thanks again, MikeD
 
Yes it's probably right. You are almost always better off with specs higher then you need for this sort of thing. Bigger is usually better.

It's not going to impact your safety. BMS isn't really going to be able to stop a real short. DC 24-60v and 30-100 amps is the settings people use for welding steel. They can generate a arch that is over a inch long once they get the spark started. This is due to plasma being generated by the superheated air.. which is electrically conductive. The idea that power that is used for welding pipelines and bridges together can be stopped by electronically disconnecting traces on a PCB doesn't make any sense. Usually what will really happen is that you melt a wire or plug or something and then the short goes away.
 
Please link to the battery pack, motor and controller.


A theoretical 3000W battery draw is around 60A, so 100A gives a bit of safety headroom for quality control so the BMS doesn't get burnt.

This is just a "do not go near this maximum" rating for the BMS circuitry, going higher does not change the actual performance of the BMS.

Your controller may be capable of capping that to an even lower amps rate, so you could spec a lower limit on the BMS, but I doubt that would save you much money.
 
Thanks to both of you for your answers! extremely helpful, and sets my mind at ease that i'm on the right track in my continuing saga with trying to make a whole kit and battery purchase in China. I will keep trying to learn, and read through the tons of info here, but i have found asking is the best solution for me, as a lot of what i have been reading is above my head, unfortunately.

Thanks again! MikeD
 
The current limit on the BMS is for the cells of the battery. (assuming it has a current limit that shuts it off when exceeded, to protect the cells).

(but it does have to be capable of high enough current so the current pulled thru the BMS doesn't burn it up).

The BMS is there to protect the battery.

You must choose a BMS with a limit that is less than what the cells can easily handle (not their maximum specs, unless you prefer to run them really hard and age them quickly, and replace the pack often).


So you have to know what the cells themselves are capable of for average current, and the number of those cells in parallel, so you can multiply the two to get the current you want the BMS to protect them at.

Then you have to know how the pack itself is built, and whether or not it's interconnects and wiring can handle that current. If not, then you have to lower the limit to what that can handle.

Hopefully you can trust the seller to know this, but they don't all. Most of them probably don't, and don't care, because if you use the pack hard and wear it out early then they get to sell you a new one.



So...since we don't know which specific cell model the pack is built from let's make an assumption that the current each cell can easily handle (not it's max) is 5A. (it could be less)

We don't know how many paralleled cells there are, so we'll calculate that out by dividing pack capacity by cell capacity you've given. 24Ah / 3.5Ah = 6.87. That's almost 7 parallel cells, but not quite, so I don't know if they've derated the pack capacity or rounded up. We'll assume they've rounded up and so call it 6 cells in parallel.

So 6 cells x 5A per cell = 30A as the easily-handled current the pack can deal with.

The max current is probably around twice that, but max current pushes the cells hard, and it heats them up (which ages them faster), and it causes more voltage sag, so you don't get as much power (or capacity) out of them using them at that rate. If it's only a few seconds at a time, it's not a big deal, but if you're pulling that current for long periods, it heats up the pack (how much depends on the cells themselves, the pack construction, airflow, etc etc).


Keep in mind the numbers above are assumptions, and may have nothing to do with your cells--you will have to find out what cells they are and what their specs are to get the real numbers.

But if they are correct, then as long as you're using the pack at 30A or less most of the time, with only bursts of higher current, then the pack would be ok for your controller, and you would use a 60A (or less) BMS.

However, if you will be pushing the pack hard a lot, pulling the full (or nearly so) current the controller is capable of, you would probably want to double the size of the pack so it's not being pushed so hard.


In any case, you must size the BMS to protect the pack, not to provide what the controller needs.

You have to size the whole pack to provide what the controller needs, first, though.
 
The BMS is there to protect the battery.

Yes, but it's not going to protect over current problems when it counts, though. If you really want to protect against over-current then get a fuse that is rated to what you want. Trouble is finding a fuse and fuse holder that is capable of handling 60-100 amps without getting all melty.

If you want to produce batteries for public consumption and want to prevent users from regularly running the battery current too high and then wanting a warranty claim, then get a BMS that is at somewhat overrated but has a configurable amperage limit you can set.
 
The best configuration is a current sensor that is sized well above the OCP setpoint, triggering a robust external contactor to open when the controller fails, allowing too high a draw.

Whether or not that is part of "the BMS" doesn't matter, as long as it's reliable.
 
so- after digesting your info-i guess what i need to do is what has been requested, and post a link- or give the info the rep gave me on the batteries they are trying to sell me. . . .

2019-09-01 17:33
okay, use 3500mah cells,48V 24.5ah battery is that ok for you?(use 45A bms)

the price of 48V 24.5ah battery pack with Samsung 3500mah cells is $345.
the price of 48V 24.5ah battery pack with Sanyo 3500mah cells is $439.
the price of 48V 24.5ah battery pack with LG 3500mah cells is $381.

After i told here what i was going to use it with- shown below i hope , she sent this;
For 1 piece 48V 24.5ah battery pack, the shipping cost is $85.

btw,Mike If you use 3000w motor,we need use 100A BMS for the battery,and the price will be add $50. Please tell me the current of controller.

here is what i am seriously considering; https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Greenpedel-heavy-duty-strong-power-48v_60678391837.html?spm=a2700.7724838.normalList.2.7dc64faf8ii4fh

I hope i did that right. Hopefully this will clarify and help you help me, lol. Thanks once again all!
 
the above link shows a 72v battery- which i am NOT planning on purchasing fwiw. The site says this motor can run on a 48v batt, and that is what i am hoping. if i am incorrect , there are other kits i am considering- 3k isnt REALLY necessary, but having the extra power there is nice to know. my first concern was for this size kit with a PAS, which at first was hard to find.

Please keep this in mind- I am not looking to break land speed records, though occasionally i may want to :) , but travelling along at 18-20 mph most the time in city, i am looking for a decent range- thus the 24ah. I wanted to go higher 30-35 AH, but was getting out of my budget. 95% of my riding is relatively flat, with some bridges and overpasses. If needs be- or someone sees a 1500w motor more practical, please speak your mind, i am completely open about this.

Fwiw, i just test rode a really nice bike from Eugene Electric Cycles, the hub motor being only 500w, i was impressed with what the motor did, but it was (in my testosterone injected brain cells) not quite enough "ooomph". I had to keep this to myself, as the wife was there. If i had $2300 i might consider buying it- if the motor were bigger.
https://www.eugeneelectricbicycles.com/store/products/119014
 
MikeD said:
the price of 48V 24.5ah battery pack with Samsung 3500mah cells is $345.
the price of 48V 24.5ah battery pack with Sanyo 3500mah cells is $439.
the price of 48V 24.5ah battery pack with LG 3500mah cells is $381.
Ask the specific model of battery for each maker.

Consider skipping their BMS

Ask how much to get the balance leads exposed, JST XH connectors.

The above makes it easy to choose a better BMS, or replace/upgrade as desired in future, as well as verifying / improving state of balance.

Otherwise ask for a link to that $50-extra BMS, say if replacement needed, you want the detailed specs.

Ideally lets you monitor / adjust settings on your phone.

Going to 52V with a pair of 7S packs, rather than one big one, will give lots of excellent options at lower cost for proper charging to maximize their longevity.

 
Motor says 56V minimum, up to 80V

That is optimised for top speed, not torque at low speeds, for which your intended 48-52V is ideal.
 
i know that it says 56 volt in description below- but at the top it clearly show 48-90v. This can get really confusing.

I think what i am going to do is just cut into my budget, and order a kit from Amazon, if nothing else but to cut down on the confusion on my part. The battery i will try and stick with purchasing in China, if i can get the quality i want. I was hoping not to have to do this but. . .
 
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