Q100 and Q128 with 0.35mm laminations

Problems is a general term, so here you are ...

In regards to hub motors being less problematic than the other drive systems, I agree , in fact that is why I am so much interested in improvements on hub motors, and am going to buy another hub motor and ... not buy the BBS02 .

The the problems I talk about in regards to hub motors, are:

No gearbox/transmission, so in order to run it in its most efficient rpm , others here have stated that you have a small speed range that the hub motor will run
in it's most efficient rpm range.
and
Less cooling than say a mid drive like the bbs02
and
The fact that the hub motors that we have available to buy , now, have been designed , years ago, they mostly just fit onto them a 7 speed or 8 speed freewheel , and only in a couple of instances
are they available to fit on a 8 or 9 speed cassette. while still staying at 137 mm or less dropout spacing,
However,
anyone who has gone to bike shops in the last couple of years
has seen the proliferation of 10 and 11 speed cassettes, along with the dropping of the 3 chain ring crank ..in favor of 2 chain ring cranks, and now in 2016 more and more,
Single chain ring cranks with 11 speed cassettes.

When a costumer wants to convert a bike ( DIY ) to electric , he wants to use the bike they have , not go out and buy an older bike .. or a cheep / heavy big box store bike.

We want to have a Kit, or at least a hub motor that will work with the current bikes with 10/11 speed cassettes , 10/11 speed chain rings , 10 or 11 speed chain, 10 or 11 speed shifters, and Derailleurs !
...
That is a , Very Reasonable Expectation, a hub motor that will work with a modern bike of the last 5 to 7 years ( 9 speed too ). That is Very Reasonable to have a kit-Hub Motor that will work with our bikes.


Another Reasonable Expectation is to have improvements,
example : I have personally seen how cars were 40 years ago, and how they are now, most people do not want to drive what was available 20-30-40 years ago,
I can tell you the cars of 25-40 and more years ago, drove like tanks, like boats, they leaned around every turn, could not stop very well, got 6-10 miles per gallon, with no airbags, etc.,
That is a good analogy to what we are seeing with the current generation of hub motors .

Improvement is ... Good
 
I agree, we need better motor designs. It should not be difficult to package current internals (stators, gears) in an updated design to accept modern components. We see the CST style motors so we know it is coming, albeit slowly.
 
Very interesting, I think I want one. How would these motors compare to mxus?

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Powerful-180W-250W-350W-ultra-quiet-motor-with-cassette-for-rear-Ebike/1514220_32268187888.html
 
Allex said:
Very interesting, I think I want one. How would these motors compare to mxus?

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Powerful-180W-250W-350W-ultra-quiet-motor-with-cassette-for-rear-Ebike/1514220_32268187888.html
Click to expand...
My MXUS geared performs a little better than a Q100H, both mid-speed motors.
The Cute seems a little quicker off the line(spinning faster), but the MXUS will take it up hills and has about 10% advantage in top speed.
Makes sense since the MXUS has about 10% more mass.
 
With it's compound gears and 16 poles, the Cute is more quiet.
Further attributes;
The MXUS will run sensorless, the Cute will not.
At 128 mm diameter, the frt. mount MXUS flange is very close to the standard brk. caliper, sometime requiring some clearancing(filing). MXUS frt. wheels are always laced with all spokes exiting the back of the flange to provide a little more clearance. The Q100, at 108mm does not come close and the wheel can be laced in any manor(I like 2X).
 
Great, thank you!
I would like to have a speed of 35-40km/h on a flat(if more is possible then great, but 40km/km is good enough)
What speed can I expect with 28" wheel with a Cute when using:
36V
48V
And also what RPM should I choose?
 
Geared mini's in the 260 rpm range, on 48 Volts and in a 28" wheel will get close to 40 Kph. But head winds will slow them down and serious hills, longer than 100 meters or so will be a problem. If the rider is strong, these limits can be mitigated some what.
At any rate, a 100H on 20 or so Amps should have enough torque to turn the big wheel. I don't think the other Q100 versions would be suitable for a 28 incher.
A MXUS 260 would do a little better.
I would suggest the Q128, but it only come in 201 rpm and 328 rpm versions. The 328 is too tall geared and the 201 would top out @ 33 to 35 Kph.
The BPM CST comes in a 270 rpm version, which would be a good match, but you would lose much of the stealth factor.
Bottom line, I think the MXUS 260 would be the best 28" wheel mini if small size is important.
The right controller would help keep the Db's down
 
So 100h 260rpm it is for stealth and quiet ride but 20Amps at 48V is almost 1kW, It will probably overheat in the long run?
What is the difference between Q100C CST and above? I see that it comes with cassette which I would prefer, can one choose 100h with cassette as well?
 
motomech said:
...I use it that way in a 12 to 20 mph speed range and use, at most 4 gears and I enjoy the smooth shifting of my Deore XT free hub and from an asthestic standpoint, like the lighter weight of the cassette.
But I have used several DNP's and they are nowhere as awful as many would make them out to be(As Dave has mentioned, the 7-speed{11 to 28}w/ a 9-speed shifter works well).
Click to expand...

The Sunrace MFEX9-9AU (golden aluminium Spacers) is heavy at 600g and quite noisy, but otherwiese is a useable 9 speed freewheel system. If you kill the clutch just screw on a new one, a freewheel is much cheaper than a new CST motor.

I use them with my BionX SL motors. They are far from perfect, but useable for me and shift quite well. I do not recommend to use brutal pedal force on them.

At 11-32 it offers a decent range with 11 tooth for those that need higher speeds (with 50Z or 52Z in front you can pedal up to around 50km/h) and 32 teeth for hill climbing at low speeds.

So imho a Q100H + decent freewheel could(!) be a better option for high motor power applications than a Q100CST...

---

Btw, 10 speed freewheels are availabe, too. They are pricey though. Can't comment on quality, because I decided to use 9 speed systems on all of my bikes.
 
motomech said:
Only very fit riders living in Flatland need apply. High speed mini motors in big wheels do not make enough power to reach no-load speed and are, in effect, current limited, as opposed to being rpm limited(like the almost every hub motor). The punny controller tries to supply and runs max Amps all the time, hurting efficiency and creating a controller over-heat situation. All this can be seen at the Ebike CA simulator, where Justin has a Q100 328 modeled...
Click to expand...

I do agree. But there is a "solution". You can limit the A max of the controller (thinning the shunt). I used to run a Q85(!) 328 at 28" wheels at 36V and 10-11A max and this was ok. (changed that to a Q85 201 motor for legal reasons, so no long term experince with the Q85 328, the 201 is doing fine for years...)

This is a assistant system only, of course and you have to pedal, especially uphill.

best regards
 
What make and model is the 10 speed freewheel you speak of ?

This one ? : http://www.niagaracycle.com/categories/sunrace-10-speed-11-36t-freewheel?gclid=CMjI0_yrvsoCFZA2gQodRbwIQg
And one in NYC so it is even more expensive : http://www.nycewheels.com/10-speed-freewheel-11-32.html

If so yes that is expensive, and, who needs a 36 tooth on the rear. for e-bikes it seems like a 11-32 tooth would be better.

Any others besides Sunrace ?

Yesterday , I went and talked with 3 bike mechanics at a local bike shop, they know that I am about to put a small hub motor onto my 700c wheel Road Bike.
I asked them if they would be confident enough to have my 10 speed shifters adjusted to work with a 9 speed freewheel.
They all said that the shifting would be off/not precise / lousy shifting ... , no mater how much you could try to get the system to shift like it should.
It just would not shift like it should.

Would a better controller ( one programable by computer ) make a 328 rpm Q100cst or Q100h work better and/or more efficient in a 700c wheel ?





Cephalotus said:
So imho a Q100H + decent freewheel could(!) be a better option for high motor power applications than a Q100CST...

---

Btw, 10 speed freewheels are availabe, too. They are pricey though. Can't comment on quality, because I decided to use 9 speed systems on all of my bikes.
Click to expand...
 
Allex said:
So 100h 260rpm it is for stealth and quiet ride but 20Amps at 48V is almost 1kW, It will probably overheat in the long run?
What is the difference between Q100C CST and above? I see that it comes with cassette which I would prefer, can one choose 100h with cassette as well?
Click to expand...
These minis are not prone to over heating. Really, at reasonable Voltages, the only way to do it is to pull the rpm's down on a really steep hill. We are talking about sustaining a motor speed that is less than 1/2 of the no-load rpm. At this point the motor is struggling and the rider would have to be an idiot not to know he is hurting it.
I have run Q100's wide open for miles at a time and I weigh 250 Lb.s and live in a part of the world that gets hotter than you can believe, and the motor barely get warm. It's the controllers that get used on these mini's than tend to run hot.
To make room for the cassette, the CST uses a stator about 2/3's the width of the standard Q100 and consequently produces the least amount of power. Approx. 2/3rd.'s of the H and 3/4th.'s of the standard.
 
The Sunrace MFEX9-9AU (golden aluminium Spacers) is heavy at 600g and quite noisy, but otherwiese is a useable 9 speed freewheel system. If you kill the clutch just screw on a new one, a freewheel is much cheaper than a new CST motor.
Click to expand...
Except that most clutch failures are "no go" failures, they don't engage. There are a couple of guys here who have "pinned" failed mini motor clutchs so they were locked-up and used them like a direct drive motor. They don't "cog" too badly, they are, after all, mini's. Really, at the price of these things, it isn't worth the time to try and fix most problems. I have six in total, four that I use, one that's for parts(bad Hall sensor) and one I need to repair(wires where they come out were ground off in a crash).
At 11-32 it offers a decent range with 11 tooth for those that need higher speeds (with 50Z or 52Z in front you can pedal up to around 50km/h) and 32 teeth for hill climbing at low speeds.
Click to expand...
Deep gears are not needed to help hub motors climb, even mini's. If you are on the 32T gear, you are going too slow and the hub motor will burn up. Remember, hub motors cannot be allowed to fall below 1/2 their top speed. If they fall below that speed climbing, it's time to either;
1)get off and push.
or
2)turn the motor off(then you can use those deep gears.).
That's why all this talk about 9, 10 and 11 gear cassettes is irrelevent. I use 4 gears MAX! Trying to shift thru 8 or 9 gears takes too much time and will slow one down!!
 
Cephalotus said:
I do agree. But there is a "solution". You can limit the A max of the controller (thinning the shunt). I used to run a Q85(!) 328 at 28" wheels at 36V and 10-11A max and this was ok. (changed that to a Q85 201 motor for legal reasons, so no long term experince with the Q85 328, the 201 is doing fine for years...)

This is a assistant system only, of course and you have to pedal, especially uphill.

best regards
Click to expand...
That's not the solution, That's a restriction.
My work-a-round for using a 328 in a big wheel(24" or 26". I would never use a 328 in a 28")is to use a physiclly large controller that will "shead" the heat and accept the increased battery consumpsion. It isn't that much and besides, I carry so much Lipo that range is never an issue. I give the 328's the Amps they want, 17A to 19A usually.
 
Only irrelevant to someone who 1) has a older style mountain bike that they are converting, after all an older, or cheep MTB is heavy to begin with , and has cheaper/heavier parts.
and
2) if you are young enough to not have inflammation/ arthritis in the knees.

The reason many people want to use a small / light weight motor like the Q100cst or Q 100H, is to build up / convert , a light weight, efficient road bike.

Remember .. we are doing a conversion after all !
We are taking the bike we have , and converting it !

Road bikes for the last decade have 10 , and 11 speed cassettes/STI Shifters .

We do not want to have to switch over to flat bars , / mtb shifters , /, mtb brake calipers, derailleurs, etc. !
all that changing of parts is costly , both in time and money .

Now in regards to the number of cogs/gear ratio's ... for anyone who is not young anymore, and has knee problems,
or really for anyone who does not want to cause premature , knee problems, the best thing to do when riding a bike, is to spin faster
so as to not put much pressure on the knees . ( along with adjusting your seat height, and fore-aft position appropriately )
You need to do all three of those three things to keep your knees in the best shape, and for many of us, to keep knee pain
as low as possible .

Now I am ready to try a 260 rpm Q100H that Jason is, someday ( has anyone heard from him ? ) , going to get for us to buy, instead of a 328,
I might even try a 201 rpm one, that is , if those of you
that have run/owned a Q100 knows and can tell us how to get faster speeds from the 201 on a 700c wheel , ( what volt pack, and amp draw through the controller )





motomech said:
That's why all this talk about 9, 10 and 11 gear cassettes is irrelevent. I use 4 gears MAX! Trying to shift thru 8 or 9 gears takes too much time and will slow one down!!
Click to expand...
 
ScooterMan101 said:
What make and model is the 10 speed freewheel you speak of ?
Click to expand...

There are at least 3 types:

http://www.ebike-solutions.com/de/shop/motoren/schraubkraenze/schraubkraenze-mit-10-ritzeln.html
 
Cephalotus said:
ScooterMan101 said:
What make and model is the 10 speed freewheel you speak of ?
Click to expand...

There are at least 3 types:

http://www.ebike-solutions.com/de/shop/motoren/schraubkraenze/schraubkraenze-mit-10-ritzeln.html
Click to expand...
I would not compare those freewheels to a modern 10 speed cassette, and don't think they would work as well with the modern brifters that are out there as the cassettes which are made to work with them.
 
Here is what , NyceWheels.com says about the ones they sell

"
Item # P-HUB-FW-10speed-11-36

10 speed freewheel with 11-36 tooth spacing necessary for all BionX installations. May not match picture.
Please note, modern 10 speed cassettes are mass produced at a level which makes them very high quality and precise. Because of the small demand for 10 speed freewheels in the bicycle industry these parts are produced in small runs. As a result they are not produced to the same quality standards as 10 speed cassettes. You may notice some slight wobbling of the freewheel as well as a little more noise than you may be used to while pedaling. This is unfortunately unavoidable and we've not found a single freewheel yet that does not do this. "

Wonder if the ones sold by the German Company are different ?
are made in Germany ?
are better than the ones nycewheels sells ?

If I can remember , I , or others here can call the German Company this coming week, ( Ops they are 9 hours ahead of California, I don't usually get up early enough for E.U. Business hours )
 
Mikebergy,

According to NyceWheels the ones they sell would not work so well with the newer , very precise index shifting , Road Bike STI shifters ( Shimano 105, Ultragra, Dura Ace, or Sram Force , Rival, Red )

However Germany tends to make better products , we must find out from the German company the answer if they just sell a poorly made import or one local to them made well.
 
motomech said:
]Deep gears are not needed to help hub motors climb, even mini's. If you are on the 32T gear, you are going too slow and the hub motor will burn up. Remember, hub motors cannot be allowed to fall below 1/2 their top speed. If they fall below that speed climbing, it's time to either;
1)get off and push.
or
2)turn the motor off(then you can use those deep gears.).
That's why all this talk about 9, 10 and 11 gear cassettes is irrelevent. I use 4 gears MAX! Trying to shift thru 8 or 9 gears takes too much time and will slow one down!!
Click to expand...

For example I have a 15kg bike with a Cute 85 front motor and 1 x9 gears. 39 in front and 11-34 in the rear.

This bike has a controller that does not allow the bike to accelerate via motor from 0 km/h. (Cute 85 has tiny plastic gears). This is perfectly ok for me (I made it that way) and this motor lasts for ca. 4 years now, but lower gears are helpful, when starting uphill.

I sometimes use this bike without a battery and 39:34 is quite useable when going uphill on not so extreme hills.

Even on steep hills I prefer to use my motors (Cute 85, XinFeng, BionX SL) to run on low power like 5-10A battery current and ride uphill at 10-15km/h. This is MUCH better than pushing the bike at 4km/h. At low current hub motors will be able to climb steep hills slowly. Of course you need to add the missing torque with your own feet and low gears are VERY helpful then.

I use 9x shifters on all of my 6 bikes, because the chains are cheap and good (9x Shimano XT chain is 10 Euro here) and you can easily modify the 9x XT shifters to have the functionality of 9x XTR shifters (inside they are mechanically identical) with the ablity to shift 4 gaers down in one step and 2 gears up in one step. shifting 2 gears with just one step is very nice when you drive a Pedelec with much faster acceleration. There are also good and reasonyble cheap 9x freewheels available.

9x shifters are not compatible with 10x and 11x systems, the steps are larger and at least shimano even changed the ration on the shifters from 1:1 (until 9x) to 1:2 (10x and 11x), so you also have to change the rear derailleur. I bought enough 9x components to last at least the next 5 years and I will buy more if the stop producing/selling them.

best regards.
 
ScooterMan101 said:
Mikebergy,

According to NyceWheels the ones they sell would not work so well with the newer , very precise index shifting , Road Bike STI shifters ( Shimano 105, Ultragra, Dura Ace, or Sram Force , Rival, Red )

However Germany tends to make better products , we must find out from the German company the answer if they just sell a poorly made import or one local to them made well.
Click to expand...

One of the parts on the website which was linked was a Suntour brand. I don't think these parts are made in Germany. I haven't seen anything made specifically for the ebike market which rivals the pedal bike market in terms of mechanical precision. Regardless, I wouldn't trust those freewheels with components made for cassette-based gruppos.
 
Until the improved Q100H comes in , there is still a little hope that a good quality 10 speed freewheel is found .
If there could be a quality 10 speed freewheel, then I could keep all the parts currently on my Gravel Road Bike.

If a 10 speed quality made freewheel in not available soon then I will to go to plan B .

Plan B is to change all the components to mountain bike 9 speed components, Shimano 9 speed shifters, Derailleurs, Chain, and a Flat Bar.
I have had mountain bikes with Shimano 9 speed components for so many years that I am very familiar working with them.
 
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