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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

john61ct

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[moderator edit: this post is a reply to a member that E-S management banned. --from mark5]

What does "dry battery" mean?

And EVs usually get charged overnight in the garage, not dangerous at all, why do you think so?

With lead you have SLA vs sealed, but all LI batteries are sealed.

End of life is determined by capacity loss, usually 70-80% means replacement time.

But at least in developed countries, wealthy people just buy a new car every 3-5 years anyway

and the old ones get junked, sold for parts.
 
InsideEVs : High Prices For Leaf Battery Packs Is Attempt To Discourage Off-Gridders

https://insideevs.com/news/453505/high-prices-leaf-battery-packs-off-gridders
 
john61ct said:
InsideEVs : High Prices For Leaf Battery Packs Is Attempt To Discourage Off-Gridders

https://insideevs.com/news/453505/high-prices-leaf-battery-packs-off-gridders

Not worth it, just buy a normal i.c.e. vehicle with great fuel mileage and never have to worry about battery prices ever.
Never have to worry about range anxiety. Do you want or need to travel 800 miles, no worries...... in a i.c.e. vehicle. I'd hate to imagine the cost of repair for any electric. You got Elon Musk not wanting anyone to fix anything on his Tesla's, thats fine Elon, just fine.
VW Passat Diesel, yes.
 
At some point where the original capacity is below 70%. The debate over EV's is simple. If your daily drive is within the battery range buy it, if not get a hybrid or ICE. The cost of maintaining an ICE will pay for your battery if taken care of. I only charge at home and don't even notice the cost of electricity. Don't miss changing oils, antifreeze and all the other parts that need routine replacement. But not spending all that money on Gas is what sticks in my mind. But don't tell me the short coming's of EV's if you don't drive one.
 
john61ct said:
What does "dry battery" mean?

You mean like a dry cell? Electrolyte is semi solid. Not like a car battery where you literally add water.

john61ct said:
And EVs usually get charged overnight in the garage, not dangerous at all, why do you think so?

Don't say that. The EV1 burned down houses, as have other experimenters. Use a little caution.

john61ct said:
With lead you have SLA vs sealed, but all LI batteries are sealed.

SLA IS Sealed Lead Acid.
 
ZeroEm said:
At some point where the original capacity is below 70%. The debate over EV's is simple. If your daily drive is within the battery range buy it, if not get a hybrid or ICE. The cost of maintaining an ICE will pay for your battery if taken care of. I only charge at home and don't even notice the cost of electricity. Don't miss changing oils, antifreeze and all the other parts that need routine replacement. But not spending all that money on Gas is what sticks in my mind. But don't tell me the short coming's of EV's if you don't drive one.
You may not notice the cost of electricity, ....but you are paying it. !
Even if you only charge from home roof top solar, you had to buy that solar system, and most LCOE calculations put RT solar at the top of the expensive list. ( $20c/kWh ) !
https://www.lazard.com/media/450784/lazards-levelized-cost-of-energy-version-120-vfinal.pdf
I “do not notice the cost” of gas for my ICE, because it is a minor factor compared to the costs of ...Registration, Insurances, parking, Road tolls, etc.
And maintenance costs for EVs cannot be ignored...most responsible manufacturers have a annual maintenance requirement with an associated cost, same as with ICEs. Again for me, out of warranty period ICE maintenance at a non dealership shop, or diy, is an insignificant cost.
Dont tell me the short comings of ICEs if you have not owned, driven, and maintained a few dozen !
Currently there is no economic ( financial) justification for buying an EV. !
In simple terms They are double the cost of an equivalent ICE !
 
by Hillhater » Nov 19 2020 9:21pm

You may not notice the cost of electricity, ....but you are paying it. !
Even if you only charge from home roof top solar, you had to buy that solar system, and most LCOE calculations put RT solar at the top of the expensive list. ( $20c/kWh ) !
https://www.lazard.com/media/450784/laz ... vfinal.pdf
I “do not notice the cost” of gas for my ICE, because it is a minor factor compared to the costs of ...Registration, Insurances, parking, Road tolls, etc.
And maintenance costs for EVs cannot be ignored...most responsible manufacturers have a annual maintenance requirement with an associated cost, same as with ICEs. Again for me, out of warranty period ICE maintenance at a non dealership shop, or diy, is an insignificant cost.
Dont tell me the short comings of ICEs if you have not owned, driven, and maintained a few dozen !
Currently there is no economic ( financial) justification for buying an EV. !
In simple terms They are double the cost of an equivalent ICE !

I'm 60 yrs old, my first car was family ICE car in 1975 in 1976 purchased my first ICE Car in 1977 my second, yes owned two when I was 17. Don't think I have ever owned several dozen, maybe because I performed maintenance that extended the life.
Maybe because I learned to work on cars and trucks from my Grandfather who had his own Business repairing and rebuilding cars, trucks and heavy trucks. It just could be because I worked around heavy equipment half my life. Rebuilt my first automatic transmission around 1980 and built motors for me and others.

Can not compare maintenance on ICE to EV's. As far as gasoline you may have a car that get's good MPG but here in Texas most are below 20 mpg. It's more like $0.09 KW here. Need to convince others don't waste your time with me, I know better.
 
I Dont intend to get into a “story trading “ game , other than to say i am older than you, born into a farming / auto repair family, and was rebuilding ICE motors before i was a teenager.
Owning many cars is mainly due to having a family that needed individual transport for many years, but my personal ownership probably averages 5+ years , with my current car actually coming up for 14 years and still running fine on all original components (excpt for tyres, brake pads, and 12v batteries, !).
On my own/ family vehicles, i have never had to repair or replace a major component. The only “Failures” that have caused inconvenience and significant expence , have ironically been the Pb 12v batteries which just seem to die randomly afer 4 or so years.
I dont know why you compare 20 mpg ICE cars to EVs, most any modern car will do more than double that figure,
but as i said... there is NO financial argument to justify choosing an EV over an equivalent ICE.!
 
Hillhater said:
there is NO financial argument to justify choosing an EV over an equivalent ICE.!

That's an absurdly wrong statement. You can pick up some used EVs for bargain prices, and for those whose annual mileage is high but daily well within the range of the EV's battery pack, the cost of owning the EV would slaughter that of an ICE, even before tax incentives.

The other approach that would do so by an even greater amount would be for me to do my own conversion starting with a very cheap used ICE with a blown engine or transmission, or buy one that's running and sell the parts not needed.
 
John in CR said:
Hillhater said:
there is NO financial argument to justify choosing an EV over an equivalent ICE.!

That's an absurdly wrong statement. You can pick up some used EVs for bargain prices, ........
What is absurd is you ignoring the fact that you could also pick up an equivalent used ICE for much less than the used EV price,...with a much greater selection to choose from,...and less risk of an advanced battery replacement probability !
So the same flawed financial comparison applies.
Most ice motor/transmissions can be repaired or replaced for a fraction of the cost of a battery pack, inverter, motor set up......That DIY route is not a practical option for the average commuter/ driver., ..even just the kit of parts is not cheap. ..$16,000+ !.
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=40&products_id=168&osCsid=muparqm3i02ekvahaq7bo0kn66
and the cost for a professional conversion would be so much more !
 
Hillhater said:
John in CR said:
Hillhater said:
there is NO financial argument to justify choosing an EV over an equivalent ICE.!

That's an absurdly wrong statement. You can pick up some used EVs for bargain prices, ........
What is absurd is you ignoring the fact that you could also pick up an equivalent used ICE for much less than the used EV price,...with a much greater selection to choose from,...and less risk of an advanced battery replacement probability !
So the same flawed financial comparison applies.
Most ice motor/transmissions can be repaired or replaced for a fraction of the cost of a battery pack, inverter, motor set up......That DIY route is not a practical option for the average commuter/ driver., ..even just the kit of parts is not cheap. ..$16,000+ !.
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=40&products_id=168&osCsid=muparqm3i02ekvahaq7bo0kn66
and the cost for a professional conversion would be so much more !

Leaving fuel cost out of total cost is even more absurd.
 
..just as you left out the costs of electricity.....as i pointed out earlier to zeroem.
But, sure it costs more to fuel a ice, but you have to go an awful long way to save the difference using an EV
Which ever way you want to cut it,... The financial case does not work at all whilst EVs cost double their ice equivalent.
 
In a tweet last week Tesla CEO, Elon Musk, indicated the cost of replacing battery modules in the companies Model 3 will cost about $3000 – $7000 USD. Not a bad price considering the current batteries are designed to last 300,000 to 500,000 miles, which is the equivalent of 1,500 cycles.

Poorly deaigned air cooled batteries like in Nissan Leaf won't last as long, but I could still buy a used Leaf and it would save itself back in fuel cost alone in 3 years. 24kwh pack renewal should cost about 3000€, so a new pack would have a ROI of 2 years for me. After that it would likely serve for additional 10 years If properly taken care of. Financially used Leaf would be a good investment, it just doesn't suit my needs unfortunately.
 
by Hillhater » Nov 20 2020 4:05pm

I Dont intend to get into a “story trading “ game , other than to say i am older than you, born into a farming / auto repair family, and was rebuilding ICE motors before i was a teenager.
Owning many cars is mainly due to having a family that needed individual transport for many years, but my personal ownership probably averages 5+ years , with my current car actually coming up for 14 years and still running fine on all original components (excpt for tyres, brake pads, and 12v batteries, !).
On my own/ family vehicles, i have never had to repair or replace a major component. The only “Failures” that have caused inconvenience and significant expence , have ironically been the Pb 12v batteries which just seem to die randomly afer 4 or so years.
I dont know why you compare 20 mpg ICE cars to EVs, most any modern car will do more than double that figure,
but as i said... there is NO financial argument to justify choosing an EV over an equivalent ICE.!

I respect your experience and the quality of your ICE Vehicles. You may have noticed the administration in the USA that has rolled back emissions in this country. I was impressed with the mileage that vehicles were getting in the UK when I was there.

I don't live Down Under or across the pond or in the State of California. I live in Texas and this is what I refer to. The majority of ICE on the road here is Trucks you show me one of these trucks that get 20 mph, the ones that drive in town get 8-14 mph. So talk up 40 mph and i'm sure everyone around you gets 40 mph. I can go out side and see two to three cars/trucks at every house here and not one of them would get 30 mph but at least half of what I will see will be trucks/SUV's all of them have V8's and none of them will even get 20 mph. Maybe you live in the country where all the driving is at the best speeds. Here in the City with traffic where you can watch traffic jams backed up for miles and all of them engines burning gas sitting still.

I don't push EV's if you live out of town it would not make sense. But in the city where top speed is 45mph and lots of stop and go traffic. My Car uses maybe 100w sitting still. Makes all the difference.
 
The fact that many folk may indeed drive uneconomical vehicles, is not a valid reason to use that fuel usage in a financial comparison of EVs with EQUIVALENT ice’s.
So, to consider those 20 mpg trucks, we have to look at an equivalent EV ..not too many choices,..but the Rivian is a similar vehicle at $75+k for a 135kWh , 300mile EPA range....ie, 2.2 miles /kWh.
Using the EIA RT Solar cost of $0.20/kWh, that would imply $0.09 / mile
Now Texas gas prices are <$2.0 gal, so at 20mpg, fuel cost would be $0.010/ mile...or 1.0c/mile more than the Rivian !
It will take a LOT of mileage ...(4 million !)...to recover the $40k extra of the Rivian over a truck like the Ram 1500 !
Even if you use that 9.0c/kWh you quoted, the saving of 5c per mile would still mean 800,000 miles before break even on fuel cost.
With the reported average daily commute quoted at less than 20 miles,.... that would imply over 100 years of use
But even at 100miles/day, it still would require 20 years of daily use !
I wonder if that battery will still be function near its capacity after 20 years ?
No !,.... financially , EVs cannot be justified currently.
 
markz said:
I'd hate to imagine the cost of repair for any electric.
VW Passat Diesel, yes.

What cost?
I leased 2017 FFE 4 years ago, $250/month, after 57,000 km of city driving I had exactly 2 problems.
Dead battery in the key fob, $1 to replace, and last winter, dead 12v battery.
I didn't even bother with Ford warranty, because it happened on the weekend, just replaced it myself, $100.
I charge for free at work, BTW.
Now lets compare 4 years of owning ICE Focus vs. my FFE.
Fuel - $5700
Oil changes, $500
Brake job - $400
Total, $6600 extra.
 
From what I’ve seen in long-term EV ownership discussions, battery replacement isn’t something that happens on a fixed schedule. Most packs tend to be serviceable for many years, and what usually drives attention to replacement is gradual capacity loss rather than a sudden failure. In real-world use, a lot of owners only start seriously thinking about ev battery replacement when the usable range drops enough to affect daily driving patterns, not because the battery “expires” at a certain age.

It also seems that how the car is used matters more than time alone; things like frequent fast charging, high heat exposure, and deep discharge cycles tend to have more impact on degradation than just mileage. In practice, many packs are still holding up reasonably well past the 8–12 year mark, even if they’re not at original capacity.​
You are going to have to do better than that to demonstrate that you are a human non spammer.
Don't worry, they may be AI but I'll try my best.

What warrenautolab said matches my expectation from NMC/LFP chemistry.

First, cycle life:
NMC cells are generally expected to last >1000 cycles to 80% capacity. This benchmark is not standardized, but usually involves a charge rate of 0.2C or 0.5C, and a discharge rate between 0.2C and 1C. LFP cells are usually tested under similar conditions, and can last more than twice as long in cycles. Note, basic practice such as avoiding ever fully discharging or charging the battery can similarly double the cycle life or more. Rule of thumb being 10-90% will give you 2x the cycle life, and 20-80% 3x.

Second, calendar aging:
This one is more complicated, depends on the particular cell design and chemistry more, and also is likely the biggest factor in EVs, as most of the life of an EV battery pack is spent sitting.
1776967612227.png
As shown in this figure (Redirecting.), when kept stored at 80% charged and at 25 Celsius, for 2 years, their tests showed approximately 6% loss of capacity. The cell they were testing was the LG M50T, which is honestly not a particularly amazing cell, so I will carry on my calculations with this number. Note, it is better to leave a battery sitting when at a lower state of charge, but I expect most EVs spend a lot of time fairly close to full charge as a matter of expediency, hence 80% SoC as the focus.

Counting cycles is more complicated than just how many times a cell/battery has been fully charged and discharged- This is why cycle life is honestly kind of a mess. Mostly, cycle life testing is for 100% DoD (depth of discharge), where the cell is charged from 0% to 100% and then discharged, given a short break, and then repeated. For modern cells, this is commonly 2.5V to 4.2V
However, it is common practice when building an ebike battery pack to count cycles by 80% of full capacity, and I'm not exactly sure why (I would expected 90%, if you were averaging between 100% capacity when new and 80% capacity when replaced...).
Regardless, assuming no fast charging, and road legal driving, EV batteries should not be subjected to conditions worse than standard test practices. Discharging the whole battery pack in 5 hours of continuous driving would be .2C discharge rate, for example. Most cells can handle 1C discharge rate without significantly worse cycle life, at least cells that I would expect to find in an EV. Level 2 charging generally maxes out around 20kW if I recall correctly, which for a 100kWh battery pack would be .2C charge rate. Assuming that most EV battery packs have adequate cooling and heating systems, cold temperatures may decrease range and waste energy, but likely keep the cells themselves within the acceptable range.

With those assumptions in mind, a quick calculation can be done for the expected miles an EV battery pack can deliver before it reaches the 80% capacity threshold: I will use the Ioniq 5 as an example.
The first gen Ioniq 5 RWD, standard range, has a 58kWh battery pack, and a claimed range of 220 miles (EPA), which I will round down to 200 miles because EPA range is fake.
A basic approximation would be >1000 cycles * 0.9 (averaging range loss) * 200 miles = >180,000 miles until 80% capacity.
Thus, from a simple cycle life perspective, even a intermediate range battery pack should last you ~200,000 miles without fast charging.

Assuming 0 miles are driven and an EV is merely kept at 80% state of charge until its range drops to 80%, based off of the figure above, you can expect about 7-8 years. Note, if you live in a hot location and the battery spend a lot of time cooking at >45C, this could be actually a pretty big hit to calendar life. According to the same paper above, at 45C the cells lost 10% capacity at 500 days, vs 6% in 750 days. When driving at least, thermal management will prevent this under normal use.

TL;DR I would start being concerned about the battery pack at 200,000 miles, or 8 years of age, as I would expect it might start cutting into the maximum range significantly. There's definitely more consideration on an individual basis, so this is just an explanation for a ballpark estimate/rule of thumb. Considering common use cases being mostly commutes and level 1 charging, some basic precautions such as keeping between 20% and 80% charged, would likely extend the cycle life by a factor of 2 or 3, making calendar aging actually much more relevant than cycle life (at 500,000 miles, most cars start falling apart anyways...).

Hopefully that was more informative than AI :)
 
Car drivers are a dim witted lot who think they need unused range more than they need product lifespan they could actually benefit from. I very much do not understand why ecars do not use LFP or LTO batteries more often. I guess they are built like smart phones so they only last as long as smart phones. But the low hanging fruit of easy maintenance and long service life seem to have been set aside in the race to attach suckers to their next ball and chain.

Whatever. Car drivers should suffer for their stupidity and antisocial behavior. Cool car bruh.
 
Car drivers are a dim witted lot who think they need unused range more than they need product lifespan they could actually benefit from. I very much do not understand why ecars do not use LFP or LTO batteries more often. I guess they are built like smart phones so they only last as long as smart phones. But the low hanging fruit of easy maintenance and long service life seem to have been set aside in the race to attach suckers to their next ball and chain.

Whatever. Car drivers should suffer for their stupidity and antisocial behavior. Cool car bruh.
Well, LTO is mostly not used because it's kind of expensive. LFP is very common in basically all the globally relevant EVs (cough, BYD). But we are behind quite a lot...
 
Car drivers are a dim witted lot who think they need unused range more than they need product lifespan they could actually benefit from.
Indeed.

Right now I have a Prius Prime with a 40 mile EV range. (After that the gas engine starts.) The recommendation is to go through a tank of gas every six months. The first year I did that - I'd intentionally drive in gas mode enough to go through 20 gallons a year.

Since then, I've just kept the tank full and used gas stabilizers. I am now running in EV mode for months at a time, and am averaging less than 4 gallons a year.

Now, that doesn't mean that BEVs with a 40 mile range are practical. But a 300 mile range BEV is no problem at all. That's about the same range as a Mazda CX-30 gas car.
 
The reality for many, currently 98% of US drivers, is that they just want to get in and drive, they don't want to have to think about ranges, or charge times with free solar - sunny days- . The 10 minutes they spend at the servo filling up every week is a habit now too, like going shopping, they don't consider it, I don't. The same with yearly or 6 monthly services. All hybrids need servicing too of course, the oil changed etc, so you're not gaining anything there with them. What you are doing is paying a few thousand more for a car in the expectation that it will save you a few thousand or more over the life of the battery. But what's a hybrid worth when it's battery is near stuffed?

Do the buyers realize that the electric motor augments them when pulling away from the lights, when overtaking? When climbing long hills? Take the battery away and you have a gutless 4-cyl Atkinson cycle engine that couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding. Definitely a car for the elderly. The vast majority of modern hybrid electric vehicles use Atkinson cycle engines to maximize fuel efficiency. And don't forget most recharge the battery off the ice engine too, which is very inefficient. Combustion power with all it's losses into to a mechanical generator and then to a chemical storage battery with associated losses. But they are very fuel efficient. as most small gutless engines are. My sister bought the Toyota corolla hybrid and she insisted that the battery recharged itself by regenerative braking. The salesman told her so. I went the Australian website and they said it there too! A bold faced lie. I had to pull up a UK Toyota website to get the truth, that the lion's share in fact comes from generating electricity when running on petrol. So a gutless engine pulling a car AND recharging the battery at the same time. Lovely. I'll stick with petrol.
 
TL;DR I would start being concerned about the battery pack at 200,000 miles, or 8 years of age, as I would expect it might start cutting into the maximum range significantly. There's definitely more consideration on an individual basis, so this is just an explanation for a ballpark estimate/rule of thumb. Considering common use cases being mostly commutes and level 1 charging, some basic precautions such as keeping between 20% and 80% charged, would likely extend the cycle life by a factor of 2 or 3, making calendar aging actually much more relevant than cycle life (at 500,000 miles, most cars start falling apart anyways...).

Hopefully that was more informative than AI :)
You seem to have absurdly conservative Nix.

Remember that electric vehicles, especially cars, tend to have active thermal management, asymetrical loading profiles (regen) as well as tighter SOC buffers than 100% DOD.

So, for a 200 mile range vehicle driven at 100% DOD, I'd assume around 350k miles.
Furthermore, L1 charging is to be avoided if possible, for many reasons.
 
You seem to have absurdly conservative Nix.

Remember that electric vehicles, especially cars, tend to have active thermal management, asymetrical loading profiles (regen) as well as tighter SOC buffers than 100% DOD.

So, for a 200 mile range vehicle driven at 100% DOD, I'd assume around 350k miles.
Furthermore, L1 charging is to be avoided if possible, for many reasons.
Well I did say that's when I would start looking at the battery carefully, not exactly how long you should expect. Similar to looking carefully at an engine that's done 200k, honestly. Can't assume the average owner will have treated the battery properly, if you're buying used for example. The degradation from calendar life by 350k miles is quite significant as well. It's definitely possible for an EV to hit 350k miles on the original battery, but if you're putting that many miles on it you might expect more fast charging on long drives, etc.

I don't know a ton about the effect of regen on battery health, but I'm not sure it would have that much of an effect? The active thermal management was considered, but would only provide a significant benefit to cycle life at high output that falls outside of standard commuter use, no? I'm not as well versed on that aspect either.

As for avoiding L1 charging... Do you mean avoiding fast charging?
 
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