Running the latest 48v 500W TSDZ2 engine on 52volts ?

[RTIII]

what makes luna safe? Just a China battery according to the fellas on ES facebook. Check this out... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oNfTEHBz_bg
hows that for a class act. They do build their own packs? A mini may be a bad idea, you need more parallel cells to avoid a sagging pack. At least 4p. I have a mini and its a nice bacup,but not a primary pack.

Hi tomjasz,

I'm surprised at your remark. The video doesn't play for me, by the way. Can you cite some evidence other than that video?

Here's a good write up from the folks at Luna:

https://www.electricbike.com/luna-cycles-hello/

Until I read it, I didn't know they have a store just across the bay from me in San Francisco (I'm in Oakland). So, I'll be able to go to their store and PICK UP my unit myself and maybe even see them working on the batteries. ... If you can handle an actual cell, you can test it easily on the spot...

I've also read more owner reports about being happy with them as a vendor than any other vendor - could just be the luck of where I have searched, but I have spent many many man-days scouring the internet looking. ... Do you have a better vendor in mind?

Thanks,
RTIII

 

[ScooterMan101]

Grin is expensive because they are a Engineering Business that also Sells the Products they Engineer , along with some Chinese Motors .
So Although I often think the same, I have to remind myself that Engineers are Paid more than Slave Labor ... for a good reason.

More people have experience with buying products from Grin and EM3ev , in the General Electric Bike Threads, ( You could post the question there )

EM3ev and Grin were recommended to me. Grin is really expensive. EM3ev looks like what I need and details what they sell you...

Does anyone here have experience with either?

 

[ScooterMan101]

Luna was in San Francisco some years ago, they moved to the Los Angeles area , and now have a storefront down there, ( which I would go and visit , if I lived down that way )
so was that what you were reading ?
or
Do they now have a partner selling their products once again in San Francisco ?

If they did have a store front or partner up here that would be good for those of us living in the Bay Area,
since Tax and Shipping added together , on a battery pack for those of us living in this High Tax State
adds allot to the Final Price.

Being able to go and pick up a battery pack , would a good selling point.

I would consider buying a pack from Luna, if they were up here in the Bay Area, And, they made their own packs in house/at a local ( to me ) shop .

Here's a good write up from the folks at Luna:

https://www.electricbike.com/luna-cycles-hello/

Until I read it, I didn't know they have a store just across the bay from me in San Francisco (I'm in Oakland). So, I'll be able to go to their store and PICK UP my unit myself and maybe even see them working on the batteries. ... If you can handle an actual cell, you can test it easily on the spot...

Thanks,
RTIII

 

[RTIII]

Luna was in San Francisco some years ago,

[...snip...]

Do they now have a partner selling their products once again in San Francisco ?

If they did have a store front or partner up here that would be good for those of us living in the Bay Area,
since Tax and Shipping added together , on a battery pack for those of us living in this High Tax State
adds allot to the Final Price.

Being able to go and pick up a battery pack , would a good selling point.

No, apparently they're FROM S.F. and are now in the L.A. area. BUT, we should tell them about our buying interests because, frankly, I agree. ... If I were to share openly the mess that one of their staff just told me about ordering, they would cringe! For example, the person wasn't able to help me know what offerings they even have in stock regarding 48v systems! And the procedures for in-person pickup were just crazy. . . Not that I'm saying I could or would do better if it was my business! But it was far more complex than I would have imagined...

BTW, since you're from up here, private-message me if you'd like to connect. As I indicated to MPM here, we're hosting a Pot-Luck this Saturday, June 17, and if you want to come, just send me a message.

 

[tomjasz]

And, they made their own packs in house/at a local ( to me ) shop .
]

Thats more urban legend and rumor allowed to continue irrespective ofthe facts. Th direct sources have been discussed by others on ES FB.

 

[tomjasz]

....Thanks, Norton, ... we're here to help each other! (And we do a pretty good job of it overall!).....

Thanks again RT, for the detailed analysis.
Only after what timjasz posted above^ ,,, I'm having Analysis Paralysis. :x
Who can you trust?

Say you get a brand new pack and run it with a kWh meter to see what they sent you. It falls way short. What do you do? Pay $$ to ship it back to china?

EM3ev and Grin were recommended to me. Grin is really expensive. EM3ev looks like what I need and details what they sell you...

Does anyone here have experience with either?

with both. Grin, at least some come from Allcell. EM3ev builds in a new modern updated tech facility, see their factory tour on youtube.
Class act... https://em3ev.com/bruno-electricbike-youtube-channel-visited-em3ev-factory/ i've been buying direct from China. Endless Sphere Facebook posters listed two sources claimed to be the source for USA resellers. I'm using one frequently. Decent warranty. But we cant legally ship a battery back in the USA unless the reseller uses their permit and thats expensive. No advantage that i can see over China. So i figure if the usa guy is gonna send me parts to fix after 30 days, why not save and go with the China guy? And save even more money. if its a good seller they'll honor the warranty. I had a seller tell me to keep the problem battery and sent my friend a new one. Everyone gets far to wound up by all the bullshit that flies. I have 10 packs and only a problem with 2 of the twenty other packs i helped friends with. One was Luna the other UPP. Luna was out of warranty UPP replaced the pack. BEST ADVISE? Spend the extra if youre not willing to do repairs and buy from EM3ev.

 

[tomjasz]

what makes luna safe? Just a China battery according to the fellas on ES facebook. Check this out... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oNfTEHBz_bg
hows that for a class act. They do build their own packs? A mini may be a bad idea, you need more parallel cells to avoid a sagging pack. At least 4p. I have a mini and its a nice bacup,but not a primary pack.

Hi tomjasz,

I'm surprised at your remark. The video doesn't play for me, by the way. Can you cite some evidence other than that video?

Here's a good write up from the folks at Luna:

https://www.electricbike.com/luna-cycles-hello/

Until I read it, I didn't know they have a store just across the bay from me in San Francisco (I'm in Oakland). So, I'll be able to go to their store and PICK UP my unit myself and maybe even see them working on the batteries. ... If you can handle an actual cell, you can test it easily on the spot...

I've also read more owner reports about being happy with them as a vendor than any other vendor - could just be the luck of where I have searched, but I have spent many many man-days scouring the internet looking. ... Do you have a better vendor in mind?

Thanks,
RTIII

Its a youtube video...go there. Search here for cell_man Thats Paul Lynch the British expat that owns EM3ev. He has a 7 year stellar reputation here. He actually DOES build the battery packs. First quality. No one in between. My pack from him is in season 4. Until the new kid came with lower prices on China budget packs, if you asked about where to safely buy, the answer was cell_man.

I'm not dissing Luna. I have Luna packs. I prefer to take the risk on lower tier batteries direct.the 30 day return doesn't thrill me. If warranty and suport is important...EM3ev or Grin or Allcell. Best bang for the buck thenear decade long reputation with EM3 suits me best. Theyre not all that much higher...

 

[itchyfoot42]

Bought a Luna 52v Panasonic battery for my 48v TDSZ2, charged to 100% and wouldn't work. Hooked to my George Forman grill and discharged to 54.0 v . Several hours later went to ride and my power analyzer read 55.73; apparently regained after load removed. Tried the motor with little hope and it worked! So mine works at 55.73. Suspect each motor will have a slightly different max v as electronics are probably not precision quality. My charger has a 90% setting and I won't try to find max v on my motor til I need to condition the battery.

After an hours ride and 14 miles, rolling short hills, and using "assist" as need to add 3-4 mph on level/near level with level 1 and 4-6 mph on grades up to 6+, using level 2 and 3, voltage was down to 53.32. The motor will have a good range (60-70 miles), maybe more I if I can learn the sweet spots.

 

[Norton]

^ And That, answers That !

Thanks itchy.

 

[RTIII]

^ And That, answers That !

Thanks itchy.

...Not just yet, I don't think; there are still some unknowns here.

It's extremely unlikely that there's any measurable (by ordinary means) difference in the high and low cut-out voltages between various instances of the TSDZ2 of the same voltage and wattage. More likely would be variations of the quality of the connections in the power system, variations in the output of battery packs and variations in where and under what conditions measurements are made. For example, measuring a battery packs voltage while under load is NOT a reliable indicator of much of anything because the apparent voltage will vary with load ... which is why voltage isn't a particularly useful gauge to how much energy is in a pack. (IOW, it makes a poor "fuel gauge".)

What we need to know are what the two critical voltages are - because they likely ARE volt based: 1) What is the highest voltage (in this case the "48v" version) that the system will actually run on (now established to be somewhat north of 54.6), and; 2) what is the voltage and load at which the system cuts-out to protect the batteries (if any). The low-end value will be harder to determine because it's almost certain to be related to load and not just voltage - but we don't know what Tongsheng did - and can't easily know because reportedly they "potted" the controller. (Potting is the encapsulation of electronic equipment in an inert, insulating material for purposes of obscuring the components and layout of an electronic device.)

 

[Norton]

...
>1) What is the highest voltage (in this case the "48v" version) that the system will actually run on (now established to be somewhat north of 54.6), and;
>2) what is the voltage and load at which the system cuts-out to protect the batteries (if any). The low-end value will be harder to determine because it's almost certain to be related to load and not just voltage - but we don't know what Tongsheng did - ...
>(Potting is the encapsulation of electronic equipment in an inert, insulating material for purposes of obscuring the components and layout of an electronic device.)

I admit I'm still learning ebike stuff, but:

>Stock 48V TSDZ2 will not play with a 52V pack without 'fudging' the high end open Voltage.

>As I understand it the battery packs have a BMS and that provides Low and High Voltage limits, current limits and cell balancing when you allow it to stay on the charger after topping up.
I'm not sure if the drive unit controllers stop playing at a certain low voltage, but they probably have some sort of Low Volt cut off too.

>Potting is mainly for vibration dampening, environmental sealing and maybe heat conduction. Even if you could see the board level components, it's the SW that does the thinking.

I would like to be able to use a 52V pack because I'm pretty sure I'll get power hungry and there will be a bigass Bafang or other mid-drive in my future!!

 

[ScooterMan101]

Many controllers are rated for more than one voltage , Example 36-48 volt , or 48-72 volts , etc. so they will shut off when reaching the low voltage of the lowest number of cells that the controller is rated for.
However the Company that makes the TSDZ2 might have their controller made for only one voltage. ( one size pack like 10s or 13s )
In Which case, and from what I am reading about this little motor, is only up to around a little less than 56 volts.
The Company needs to be contacted by the hundreds or even thousands ,
of people reading about and perhaps wanting this little motor, with the comment / request that they make a new version ( Perhaps call it the TSDZ 4 ) that will accept 14s or even up to 16s battery packs since this is where E-Bikes are going to be running at soon.

For you Norton, and the hundreds of other people who want to buy a 52 volt battery pack ( 14s ) only being able to charge a 14s pack up to around 53.7 volts is a less than a 80% charge on the battery pack, you would loose too much total usable watt hours. So although doable, not really useful unless you went with a custom made 6 to 8 p on that 14s pack.

I'm not sure if the drive unit controllers stop playing at a certain low voltage, but they probably have some sort of Low Volt cut off too.
Most people want to be using a 50/52 volt pack ( 14s ) now and more will want to be using 16 s soon. The sooner people contact the maker of this little motor, and tell them that they will buy , only when they make a newer higher Voltage and Amperage Capable Motor that they will buy.


I would like to be able to use a 52V pack because I'm pretty sure I'll get power hungry and there will be a bigass Bafang or other mid-drive in my future!!

 

[Waynemarlow]

Umm I'm not sure I should confess to this, but whilst waiting on a BMS to arrive, we have run a battery down to 42.0V without the motor actually switching itself off. The battery level was showing as a flashing 1 bar display.

But the engine is all but useless at this level, it is operating but barely and really not even worthwhile operating as an E-Bike. At the level of about 44V it still operates pretty well, at 43V ( 1 bar display ) it is in get you home mode only.

 

[Norton]

Umm I'm not sure I should confess to this, but whilst waiting on a BMS to arrive, we have run a battery down to 42.0V without the motor actually switching itself off. ..

Yikes, so you have a 48V pack without a BMS and you ran it down waiting for the mid-drive to go into a Low Volt cutoff?

Sounds like you were supposed to be the BMS with this pack.

How do you safely charge it and balance the cells?

Hopefully the pack charged up OK and is feeling well today....

 

[Waynemarlow]

I have always had BMS's fitted but with the change from 52V back to 48V I have had to wait for new 13S BMS units. On the Bafung unit I have you can program the voltage for the cut off but that is not available on the TSDZ2 engine and I would have thought the management unit in the engine would have limited that voltage to a fairly sensible level, I'm not sure it has a lower cut off at all as at 42V you may as well not have an engine on board.

I am a little bemused about the BMS's worth, the Samsung cells I have, have a Discharge cut-off voltage: 2.5V which by my books is ultra low and at 42V it is then only 3.2 V so should be well within manufacturers specs. On charging the pack with a lab power pack, all the cells pick up to almost exactly the same voltage, I have only charged the packs a half dozen or so times so I guess the cells could come out of alignment at some stage. Anyway the BMS's are here now and this weekend they will be fitted.

Really disappointing in some ways that the units won't take the 52volt packs as its quite a noticeable drop off of power when the battery gets down below 44 volts. The article https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/...ve-system-with-a-52-volt-battery-master-yoda/ I think really supports the way this unit reacts to the lower voltage levels.

 

[Jaybee258]

Would something like this work to convert a 52 volt battery for a 48 volt motor? At £28 it's cheaper than replacing batteries