zombiess
10 MW
The controller was not designed to charge batteries.
Sabvoton SVMC072150 controller review, variable regen *PICS*
- Thread starter zombiess
- Start date
megacycle
100 kW
If you got some sway kick some A, Big Jparabellum said:
If you want to stay ahead of the game, charging through the controller + inductance rear wheel, could make way for nice raw psu for input.
DanGT86
100 kW
I'm new to thinking about phase current based throttle so I'm trying to wrap my head around it. How would the phase current based throttle interact with a throttle ramp controlled by a Cycle analyst 3? Could one still have the cycle analyst shunt in the main power input and get about the same control of the throttle ramp? Watts in roughly=Watts out right? Would it require a shunt in the phase wires instead of the main?
Seems to me one could tune the controller ramp very aggressively and still use the CA3 to buffer the throttle signal. I really like the setting in the CA3 that ramps the throttle up extra fast until it sees a load when accelerating from a roll. It was really nice at eliminating throttle slop. Can this controller's parameters be setup to mimic that feature?
Seems to me one could tune the controller ramp very aggressively and still use the CA3 to buffer the throttle signal. I really like the setting in the CA3 that ramps the throttle up extra fast until it sees a load when accelerating from a roll. It was really nice at eliminating throttle slop. Can this controller's parameters be setup to mimic that feature?
zombiess
10 MW
You don't need a CA to do anything to the throttle, you just reprogram it in the controller. If you want to pass the throttle through the CA for it's features, that shouldn't be an issue, just no need to use any of it's throttle features.
With phase current control it's perfectly smooth, like a car or motorcycle throttle.
To adjust throttle slop, you just set a different voltage in the software, done. Min, Midpoint and Max. There is also a throttle ramp limiter if you really need it, this acts as a buffer.
Phase current control feels very natural, nothing like the cheap controllers. You don't accidentally wheelie and flip off the back with phase current control by just touching the throttle. You can control and ride a wheelie much easier with phase current based throttle.
The throttle adjustments are
min, mid max
Ramp up, Ramp down
The phase current settings are
min mid max
That gives you LOTs of room to dial in the throttle just as you want it.
With phase current control it's perfectly smooth, like a car or motorcycle throttle.
To adjust throttle slop, you just set a different voltage in the software, done. Min, Midpoint and Max. There is also a throttle ramp limiter if you really need it, this acts as a buffer.
Phase current control feels very natural, nothing like the cheap controllers. You don't accidentally wheelie and flip off the back with phase current control by just touching the throttle. You can control and ride a wheelie much easier with phase current based throttle.
The throttle adjustments are
min, mid max
Ramp up, Ramp down
The phase current settings are
min mid max
That gives you LOTs of room to dial in the throttle just as you want it.
DanGT86
100 kW
So it sounds like the features of the CA3 that I fell in love with were the ones that "trick" my speed throttle Lyen into acting like a current throttle. Makes sense that a true current throttle controller would feel more natural. Especially phase current control since that's the final word at the motor.
I'm guessing the motor thermal rollback through the CA3 would still behave basically the same since heat doesn't care where I measure current from.
I bought just enough controller for my build but I have already learned that I will want more after the first couple of test rides. I'll be keeping an eye on these sabvotons. My motor is 4 pole with 70kv and Im running 20s lipo. That puts my unloaded E-rpm right at 24k which sounds like the controller limit mentioned earlier in the thread. Are there bad effects of running so close to the limit or does that just mean it wont spin faster than that?
I'm guessing the motor thermal rollback through the CA3 would still behave basically the same since heat doesn't care where I measure current from.
I bought just enough controller for my build but I have already learned that I will want more after the first couple of test rides. I'll be keeping an eye on these sabvotons. My motor is 4 pole with 70kv and Im running 20s lipo. That puts my unloaded E-rpm right at 24k which sounds like the controller limit mentioned earlier in the thread. Are there bad effects of running so close to the limit or does that just mean it wont spin faster than that?
megacycle
100 kW
Will you be able to stock the 96V unit?
My pack arrangements don't suit the lower voltage.
Bearing in mind the IEC standard for ELV is 120V dc.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltage.
I've worked on 110V dc systems a fair bit and you would be only getting a buzz if your sweaty or wet or you've got cuts on your hands.
That's why many of our large pack systems supplying large control systems in substations is at 110V
My pack arrangements don't suit the lower voltage.
Bearing in mind the IEC standard for ELV is 120V dc.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltage.
I've worked on 110V dc systems a fair bit and you would be only getting a buzz if your sweaty or wet or you've got cuts on your hands.
That's why many of our large pack systems supplying large control systems in substations is at 110V
zombiess
10 MW
megacycle said:
I do not plan to at this point, I don't think there is enough demand to justify the investment on my part. It has a maximum of 250 phase A which most people would probably find disappointing based on my experience with phase current control. I found that even a small difference of 20A phase current is pretty noticeable in the performance, especially at low speed. I first discovered this with my Lebowski controller I built. At 200A it's pretty peppy as you can see in my videos, but when I upped it to 225A (this is already over my current sensors spec by 25A but it works OK) it was a much larger increase than I thought it would be. I then played around with different battery voltages. I started off at 50V, then 75V then 100V. I kept the phase amps at 200. I didn't notice any additional punch from low speeds at pack voltage went up from 75 to 100. My top speed was higher at 100V than 75V but overall performance felt the same. I couldn't really tell any difference between 75 and 100V voltage from 0-30mph with a Cromotor.
To properly take advantage of higher voltage, the controller should also allow higher amps. A 96V controller with 400 phase amp capability would interested me, but such a controller doesn't exist at an affordable price.
These units will do 350A phase amps and 150 from the battery. I would not recommend going above 85V. That's 12KW which is more than most motors can take for very long. Converted to HP, 12KW is 16HP, so figure about 7-8HP at the tire with a Cromotor which is quite a bit. Methods dyno'd one in a 20" BMX rim at 100V and it was saturated, made 10HP.
I realize that not everyone uses a Cromotor, but that's the reason I purchased these controllers, to match up with the Cromotor.
parabellum
1 MW
Its not about Cro or bada bada motors, its about packs. I have 3x24s packs I would not rip apart, it is actually still the most expensive part of the E-build.zombiess said:
zombiess
10 MW
parabellum said:Its not about Cro or bada bada motors, its about packs. I have 3x24s packs I would not rip apart, it is actually still the most expensive part of the E-build.zombiess said:
Controller choices for 100V packs are very limited and for good reason, it's difficult to design for high power at this voltage in a low cost consumer product.
That leaves people running 24S with 2 choices, wait for someone to come up with a controller or reconfigure the pack to use currently available controllers. All of my setups use to be configured for 24S or 30S, most are now configured for 18S because I'm finding that's all I require now and can still go > 50mph.
With 24S you are probably using 4x6S packs, 6x4S packs or used the unusual 3x8S packs. Two of these 3 configurations are relatively easy to reconfigure, especially if it's 6S packs. Convert from 24S3P to 18S4P. Voltage goes from 100V to 75v, Ah goes up, Wh stays the same. For 4S packs just drop to 20S and buy an additional pack.
For 8S packs it's difficult, but 16S runs just fine, will still get you > 40mph.
The ebike top speed game is comical. It's like having a +200mph car, you may do it once or twice but it's not the main feature that's used every day (I own 2 cars that can go +200mph but have never been close). Most people care about acceleration, like me
Extra top speed is just a byproduct of my quest for more power to accelerate faster.
megacycle
100 kW
zombiess said:[ The ebike top speed game is comical. It's like having a +200mph car, you may do it once or twice but it's not the main feature that's used every day (I own 2 cars that can go +200mph but have never been close). Most people care about acceleration, like me
Yeh drats, we either got all the current and torque or the voltage and speed and pack issue :wink:
Thanks for the advice.
It should be pointed out. The people running 100.8 v fully charged on 24s lipo using a 100v controller were usually lucky for 2 big reasons
#1 The 4110 mosfet is likely actually able to take ~110-120v but they rate It for 100v so it will last... IR is building a good rep by doing that...
#2 Most if not all of these systems had motors that were a decent amount of inductance. Which means the spikes will be less violent when the controller is trying to control current.
Having said that everyone is chasing bigger power or at least those who think they need to run right to the edge with 24s on a 100v rated fet. As we chase bigger power motor inductance goes down and battery and phase wires become thicker batteries become higher C rated etc. all pushing the spikes higher.
I have learnt so much using a scope and designing my own controllers and I'm happy I blew up a lot of shit before Highhopes and others started showing my a better way. It made me realize why this is all necessary.
But one thing to point out guys is common fet and cap voltage limits are 50/75/100/150/160/200v and you should always plan to run ~20% below that with a fully charged pack. So 24s is something that should not be used anymore you can run 150v rated components with 28s which is basically what sevcon/Zero/Brammo do. Then you build it to have more voltage then you need for the max rpm and limit the rpm with the rev limiter then as your battery sags you still have the same top speed.
On top of that things will change and people will eventually shift away from the 4110 fets and this could bring a whole new problem where the actual voltage the new fets can take might be closer to the posted 100v on the package label. With a 100v rated fet and cap the most you should run is 20s or 84v fully charged. if you want more speed change your system.
As well Zombies points out with different controllers you can get different top speeds with the same voltage so maybe 84v with this will be a higher top speed then 100v with an old trapezoid controller.
#1 The 4110 mosfet is likely actually able to take ~110-120v but they rate It for 100v so it will last... IR is building a good rep by doing that...
#2 Most if not all of these systems had motors that were a decent amount of inductance. Which means the spikes will be less violent when the controller is trying to control current.
Having said that everyone is chasing bigger power or at least those who think they need to run right to the edge with 24s on a 100v rated fet. As we chase bigger power motor inductance goes down and battery and phase wires become thicker batteries become higher C rated etc. all pushing the spikes higher.
I have learnt so much using a scope and designing my own controllers and I'm happy I blew up a lot of shit before Highhopes and others started showing my a better way. It made me realize why this is all necessary.
But one thing to point out guys is common fet and cap voltage limits are 50/75/100/150/160/200v and you should always plan to run ~20% below that with a fully charged pack. So 24s is something that should not be used anymore you can run 150v rated components with 28s which is basically what sevcon/Zero/Brammo do. Then you build it to have more voltage then you need for the max rpm and limit the rpm with the rev limiter then as your battery sags you still have the same top speed.
On top of that things will change and people will eventually shift away from the 4110 fets and this could bring a whole new problem where the actual voltage the new fets can take might be closer to the posted 100v on the package label. With a 100v rated fet and cap the most you should run is 20s or 84v fully charged. if you want more speed change your system.
As well Zombies points out with different controllers you can get different top speeds with the same voltage so maybe 84v with this will be a higher top speed then 100v with an old trapezoid controller.
Alan B
100 GW
This controller is all about Precision Control. Smooth, strong and silent. Feels very much like the Zero motorcycle I test drove. It also runs cool, and has survived many trips up the 15% controller-destroying grade in my commute. I am gathering parts to make a variable regen controlling brake lever. Currently I'm using slip regen, and that works fairly well, but it is a compromise between the regen levels I need on downhills, turns and stops. The variable feature zombiess had them add will be just the ticket for my hilly route.
zombiess
10 MW
Alan B said:
You'll love the variable regen. Programming it is a bit odd since it appears they got the decimal point in the wrong place so to set 70A you need to program in 700A, but it works just fine, even if the display rolls over negative. The computer software is far from good, but once you set it, you probably won't use it again. I tried to get them to update it without any luck.
Good to hear the controller is working as expected. The thermal capacity of it is much better than the Xie Chang 24 FETs.
It's a world of difference to go from a 24 FET hacked controller to one that has higher end features and most importantly, really nice throttle control.
You guys will want my variable regen lever.
But I just thought of something on the peak fully voltage front. You can not run fully charged voltage to the limits of the caps or FETs on newer sine wave controllers with field weakening because when you apply field weakening the peaks of the sine wave will be above the voltage applied from the battery so if you have a kick ass battery or power supply that doesn't sag you and you charge up to the max voltage of the FETs or caps once you are in the peak rpm where field weakening is in effect you will be above the rating of the FETs or caps!
But I just thought of something on the peak fully voltage front. You can not run fully charged voltage to the limits of the caps or FETs on newer sine wave controllers with field weakening because when you apply field weakening the peaks of the sine wave will be above the voltage applied from the battery so if you have a kick ass battery or power supply that doesn't sag you and you charge up to the max voltage of the FETs or caps once you are in the peak rpm where field weakening is in effect you will be above the rating of the FETs or caps!
Alan B
100 GW
Arlo, we want the improved model that doesn't bend when the rider gets excited during braking.
Yup that's not a problem. I have the design just need to get to it... I have been using mine for stop and go on my motorcycle for over 1500km and its been perfect.Alan B said:Arlo, we want the improved model that doesn't bend when the rider gets excited during braking.
I've been riding my 072080 for some time now with a H4080. No need to mention it's so much superior the the XC controllers I rode till now, and runs totally cool. So far I have had 2 issues.
First, e-brake regen only seems to start working once my battery is half discharged, i.e. under about 77V, regardless how high I set the HVC. When the bike is connected by USB, the e-brake and slip regen modes are properly activated by throttle and brake lever (and displayed respectively in status line), but the wheel just won't slow down when my battery is near or over 80V.
Second, the motor feels too slow for given winding. I can only do about 70kph on flat. I suspect there is a speed limit within the controller, even if I set "no limit" in the software.
Can anyone advise what to do?
First, e-brake regen only seems to start working once my battery is half discharged, i.e. under about 77V, regardless how high I set the HVC. When the bike is connected by USB, the e-brake and slip regen modes are properly activated by throttle and brake lever (and displayed respectively in status line), but the wheel just won't slow down when my battery is near or over 80V.
Second, the motor feels too slow for given winding. I can only do about 70kph on flat. I suspect there is a speed limit within the controller, even if I set "no limit" in the software.
Can anyone advise what to do?
Alan B
100 GW
miuan said:
Do realize that sine waves lower the average voltage and power delivered to the motor compared to trapezoidal waveforms. So it is normal that speed drops some.
My regen works fine but my battery voltage is 75V max.
Let us know what you find out from Kathy.
teslanv
1 MW
Has anyone installed the 120V version yet?
Impressions?
After reading this entire thread, I am struggling to decide if I want to build a 18S, 20S or 24S battery. My preference is for 24S...
Impressions?
After reading this entire thread, I am struggling to decide if I want to build a 18S, 20S or 24S battery. My preference is for 24S...
zombiess
10 MW
Go 18-20s if possible. The high voltage version looks like it only does 250a phase vs 350a. This is a huge difference in acceleration. With phase current controllers I'm not noticing much difference between 75-125v other than top speed.
A question of speed.
A cro runs with 24" tire on 84v only 68/70kph(without Flux)
I have my 72150 on 400 phase amps.
Yes it accelerate good.... But where are those high phase amps?
On the first few meters...
If you want traffic light drag racing maybe it is important for you.
But the accelerating is only "short" because of the "lower voltage".
I can tell you more in a week...
I've waited now months on a 16khz version but they didn't tested successful and told me that a 16khz version is available in the next generation they build.
So I decided to give the "hizzzzzzing" 10khz version a try.
A cro runs with 24" tire on 84v only 68/70kph(without Flux)
I have my 72150 on 400 phase amps.
Yes it accelerate good.... But where are those high phase amps?
On the first few meters...
If you want traffic light drag racing maybe it is important for you.
But the accelerating is only "short" because of the "lower voltage".
I can tell you more in a week...
I've waited now months on a 16khz version but they didn't tested successful and told me that a 16khz version is available in the next generation they build.
So I decided to give the "hizzzzzzing" 10khz version a try.
Alan B
100 GW
zombiess, is the Sabvoton I got from you 16khz? I don't notice any Hissssss that folks mention.
zombiess
10 MW
Alan B said:
Nope, 10khz just like most of their controllers. I can slightly hear the wine when bench testing (my hearing range is normal out out to 18khz), but that's it. If someone was having a quiet conversation with me I doubt I'd notice it and that with the motor at ear level 2 ft away from me.
I riding is as silent as my 20khz controller.
What I suspect people might be hearing is a harmonic in the wheel build. I noticed when powering a motor with a 17" moped vs a 26" bicycle they sounded very different and the 26" was louder. I've varied motors, rims, etc (basically experimented tons) and there are differences. If I was blind folded and had someone run a Cromotor with a controller I'm familiar with in different rim sizes I could tell you which controller and what rim size just based off the very faint noise they make. I even have a cheap china motor with a flaw that I can easily identify that souds different depending on controllers, sensored or sensorless mode due to the extra 1mm gap it has in one of it's magnets. I'm just weird like that.
Some people complain about coil whine on the new high end video cards because of the inverters. I just purchased a GTX970 for using with my Oculus Rift and it does have some coil whine I noticed on the first day but now it's not there unless I try to listen for it.
Some people are more sensitive to high freq tones than others as well.
Personal experience is I can't hear anything but wind over 10mph. Even the Xie Chang trapezoidal controllers are quiet to me at just about any speed, but once again I can tell the difference between an EB2xx board and an EB3xx board due to the way the current limiting control algorithm works.
Similar threads
