Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 battery

[Allex]

http://epowerbikes.ru/constructor.php
Great simulator on fitting your 18650 in to frame.
Ok, This is one is in the wrong languge but pretty intuitive.
You can upload your picture of the frame and then adjust the measurements by ticking in "Шкала" Scale. Big red squares are 10cm and small black ones are 1cm

 

[scoot-e]

Contacted Supower regarding the following Price Quotes and Shipping Quotes below:

I wrote Supower that I am very interested in the Samsung 25R 2.5ah 20ah discharge p/cell for higher continuous amp discharge rides on hills, etc and liked the overall specs. (I also asked about 20R for reference but since they aren't much cheaper than 25R and would require more cells to equal the same 10AH that I use, I still am planning to go with the 25R but got the quote regardless for 20R too as well as the Panasonic cells they initially recommended until they realized it wouldn't work to meet my requirements after all, see below)

Want to pull 30-35amps for continuous hill riding so at 2.5ah per cell decided to go for at least 4p so I have 10ah or the ability to go up to 80a discharge (at 20a p/cell or 8c max) but at 3c continuous it's more like 30amps (7.5a max p/cell at 3c x 5p = 37.5a discharge) to safely ride longer on hills or applications that draw about 30-35a without overheating or lowering the overall lifecycle. I would never ride at 10c ever but 3c seems reasonable and even if I do a 5 min moderate hill ride I will most likely average very few overall minutes on anything other than light hills and flat sprints for most practical purposes but I want the ability to easily do moderate hills without worrying ever.)

My mini scooter runs great at 12s (44.4v nominal/50.4v max) so I was planning to chose either:
12s4p or 12s5p with a 3a charger and a 45a max rated BMS all from Supower including spot welding the tabs, wiring all up to the bms which is shrink wrapped inside.

This is the response from Supower:

They said:
"Yes, 20R / 25R could do 20A (8c) max continuing for one single cell, so the 12S4P pack could do 80A continuing, 12S5P could do 100A continuing at 20a/8c discharge."

"Here is the quotation for your reference:
44.4V 10Ah 12S4P (25R) $340.00
44.4V 12.5Ah 12S5P (25R) $395.00
44.4V 10Ah 12S5P (20R) $345.00
50.4V 4A Lithium Charger $50.00
50.4V 3A Lithium Charger $46.00

Not too bad for complete packs with bms & charger ($340 or $395 + $46 for 3a charger = approx $400-$450 all in)

They also "recommended" the Panasonic NCR18650PF 2.9ah cells but I am opposed for my specs because it is half the 20a discharge per cell of the Samsung at only 10a max discharge, (or about 3C rate per cell)
"Panasonic single cell could do 10A continuing, then the 12S4P could do 40A continuing."
W/Bms:
12S4P 44.4V 11.6Ah $368.00

However, they even confirmed the Samsung would be better for my purposes:
"If it needs to keep discharge at 35A, even if the battery pack could do 40A, but it almost reach the limitation of the battery, this will shorten battery life. It will be much easier for Samsung 25R / 20R with lower heat and will give a longer circle life."

Now comes the bad part:

SHIPPING to San Francisco, California...ouch!!

"As the complete battery pack is about 3kg, shipping cost is very expensive, to ship 1x 12S5P pack + 1x 3A charger cost $265.00 by TNT Express (which is another express carrier like UPS, Fedex etc) , this is the only way to ship such big battery pack, UPS / Fedex / DHL do not accept battery pack over 2kg. TNT Express take about 6-8 days deliver to door. And we will label a lower spec. on packing to make it easier to ship."

WOW - so the shipping is almost $300 and the battery/bms/charger is $400-$450...crazy, won't work for me unfortunately as I am not willing to pay nearly the entire cost in shipping as the battery pack and charger would cost...

They went on:

Just for your reference, shipping cost for sending 20x 12S5P pack by Express cost about $860.00, this may lower down the shipping per unit (about $43.00 for one pack). Or we could ship by air mail for 20pcs (or more), that will be lower cost than express, we could even ship by sea transportation for volume orders that will not have much restriction for Lithium battery.

But for sample order like 1~2pcs, its just the only way to ship..."
---

So much for Supower unless someone had a large order and wanted to chip in...the shipping is a killer at this point, doesn't matter for loose cells or whole packs, at least from their company - please let me know if anyone found reliable, quality, real Samsung 25R cells in relatively small quantities (60 -100 cells) without more than a $1 a cell shipping or $5 a cell raw price....

Will have a few other suppliers info back shortly to report as well

Thx!
Dan

 

[Matt Gruber]

free shipping from home depot!
http://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-20-Volt-Max-4-0-AH-Premium-XR-Lithium-Ion-2-Pack-DCB204-2/204311278?cm_mmc=shopping-_-WhereToBuy-_-D25-_-204311278?srccode=cii_15053889&cpncode=33-38037094

 

[riba2233]

"And we will label a lower spec. on packing to make it easier to ship"

Don't ever let them do this, you can have problem with customs and have you package destroyed. That's what happened to me, I'm still trying to get my money back from paypal. They also declare package as nimh, which isn't hazardous merchandise, and that's how they get lower shipping price or even send the package on the plane!

 

[scoot-e]

Good point - and let us know how it works out with Paypal
I assume if you don't get your goods you will get a refund

Re the Homedepot Dewalt packs Matt, let's do the math:

$118 (rounded up and with free shipping) per pack
Each pack has 5 cells x 3.7v nominal equals 18.5v (which they call the "20v" pack)

So, to get a 44.4v nominal pack and 10ah capacity as I'm requesting:

I'd need 12s 2.5p (just for the sake of this example could be a different config but the $ math will be the same - I know there are more than 5 cells in a pack and they aren't 4ah each but stick with me here).

12s divided by 5s = 2.4 so to get the 12s pack I need I have to take 2.4 x $118 = $283.20 and that gives me a 12s(44.4v) 4ah pack.
12s2.5p 10ah pack would be ($283.20 x 2.5) = $708

30 cells at 3.7v nom and 4ah each equals 12s 2.5p 10ah pack plus you'd need to purchase a bms and charger (approx $50 each shipped from China - again, for sake of example...)
$100 charger/bms/assembly (again, on the low side here)

Total cost for 12s 10ah pack with bms & 3a charger?:

$800+ dollars

This does not even factor in the fact that we are not exactly sure which cells are used in those packs nor the C rating or max discharge amperage possible (which are most likely too weak to use for a 30a+ discharge scenario I'd be willing to bet...

Doesn't sound like a deal or feasible...correct me if I'm wrong here but I suppose it is technically an option even if not the best or even a good one...

 

[Matt Gruber]

44.4x10ah=444wh
37x16ah=592wh this is 4 two packs, $472 maybe not the cheapest, but 33% more wh than the 44,4x10ah.
this only works if you are clever enough to be happy with 37v. i do not recommend opening packs, but others have done that to get different voltage. i like the 3 yr warranty and local service, so i don't open packs.

 

[docnjoj]

free shipping from home depot!
http://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-20-Volt-Max-4-0-AH-Premium-XR-Lithium-Ion-2-Pack-DCB204-2/204311278?cm_mmc=shopping-_-WhereToBuy-_-D25-_-204311278?srccode=cii_15053889&cpncode=33-38037094

Unfortunately that is almost 12 dollars per cell USD if each pack has 10 cells.
otherDoc
I take this back. That is for 2 packs. Suddenly this may be not a bad idea.

 

[Matt Gruber]

free shipping from home depot!
http://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-20-Volt-Max-4-0-AH-Premium-XR-Lithium-Ion-2-Pack-DCB204-2/204311278?cm_mmc=shopping-_-WhereToBuy-_-D25-_-204311278?srccode=cii_15053889&cpncode=33-38037094

Unfortunately that is almost 12 dollars per cell USD if each pack has 10 cells.
otherDoc

i get $5.90 per cell. 10 cells x 2 packs $118=20 cells. assembled in a protective case to boot!
i got mine $98/2 fathers day sale, 4.90/each cell. 2 packs run my dirt bike fine, 20a, so C rate is HIGH POWER.
i am using the charger that came with my bike, so no extra cost for me. i charge it for 1 hour on a timer so it shuts itself off. i am not going to buy a special charger unless i see a need for it. You may need one, i don't know.

 

[docnjoj]

Yep, Matt, only half as much. 6 bucks per cell in a pack is not so bad. Especially if they are Sonys.
otherDoc

 

[Gab]

by docnjoj » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:42 am

Matt Gruber wrote:
free shipping from home depot!
http://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-20-Vo ... 3-38037094
Unfortunately that is almost 12 dollars per cell USD if each pack has 10 cells.
otherDoc
I take this back. That is for 2 packs. Suddenly this may be not a bad idea.

What cells are used in these dewalt 4ah and 5ah packs ? Are they Samsung ?

 

[Ohbse]

I got a quote back very quickly from EVVA who appear to be very reputable.

First proper quote I've actually had come back from a chinese company!

200x LG HE2 @ $3.80USD ea = 760
Shipping via UPS to New Zealand (usually the bit that makes this unaffordable) = $144

Total $904USD for 1.8KWH of high power cells!

For comparison, Supower came back with $5.90 ea and $162 delivered to NZ for a total of $1,342 USD, almost 50% more! I think shipping bare cells gets around a lot of the lithium restrictions, build your pack locally and save heaps. At this stage I'm going to roll the dice and go with EVVA. With the money I saved I have purchased a 1kg roll of 0.3mm nickel strip and all the bits required to build my own spot welder. This will leave me with the tools and the raw materials (other than more cells) to build packs for others and future bikes too, while still costing substantially less.

 

[riba2233]

Keep us posted!

 

[scoot-e]

44.4x10ah=444wh
37x16ah=592wh this is 4 two packs, $472 maybe not the cheapest, but 33% more wh than the 44,4x10ah.
this only works if you are clever enough to be happy with 37v. i do not recommend opening packs, but others have done that to get different voltage. i like the 3 yr warranty and local service, so i don't open packs.

Correct at $5.90 (on sale currently only for how long who knows) per cell but:

a) Need a charger $60
http://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-12-20-Volt-Max-Lithium-Ion-Battery-Charger-DCB101/202922416
b) The size of 8 packs doesn't accomodate most slim/portable scooter decks but for bikes maybe
c) You have to charge them one at a time with a minimum 8hrs of charging and 8x changes?
d) Need to configure and wire them together with a harness (cost and time and knowledge)
e) We don't know (for sure) the amount or type or model or especially the C rating of the cells which makes this moot currently
f) 37v is a lot different than 44.4v if you've actually tried them for hill riding, speed, etc...
g) Lots more ah for sure though is the plus for longer ride regardless of above - for ebikes this may be a simple solution for those that don't mind spending $550-$600 (w/tax) and don't want to "build" a pack but until we know more about the cells and the ease of wiring them I'd say this is a limited, at best, option...practical to use?

 

[eMax]

I got a quote back very quickly from EVVA who appear to be very reputable.

First proper quote I've actually had come back from a chinese company!

200x LG HE2 @ $3.80USD ea = 760
Shipping via UPS to New Zealand (usually the bit that makes this unaffordable) = $144

Total $904USD for 1.8KWH of high power cells!

For comparison, Supower came back with $5.90 ea and $162 delivered to NZ for a total of $1,342 USD, almost 50% more! I think shipping bare cells gets around a lot of the lithium restrictions, build your pack locally and save heaps. At this stage I'm going to roll the dice and go with EVVA. With the money I saved I have purchased a 1kg roll of 0.3mm nickel strip and all the bits required to build my own spot welder. This will leave me with the tools and the raw materials (other than more cells) to build packs for others and future bikes too, while still costing substantially less.

Seems like a good price! I guess shipping will be similar to Aus. Any reason you chose the LG over the Samsungs? Was it just the cost? Did you purchase your Nickel locally?
Thanks

 

[riba2233]

"And we will label a lower spec. on packing to make it easier to ship"

Don't ever let them do this, you can have problem with customs and have you package destroyed. That's what happened to me, I'm still trying to get my money back from paypal. They also declare package as nimh, which isn't hazardous merchandise, and that's how they get lower shipping price or even send the package on the plane!

Good point - and let us know how it works out with Paypal
I assume if you don't get your goods you will get a refund

I've managed to get my money back, but it was a long struggle and I've been without my batteries for almost three months now...


So be very careful when deciding from who you'll order, order from someone who declares their batteries properly, like lithium, and with correct value.

 

[Ebikebert]

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=63314

Hey guys check out my for sale thread. I am selling the entire electrical system off my bike including: hub motor, Lyen controller, battery charger, controller options panel with temp gauge. The beauty of this is that everything comes with mounts already so it is very easy to setup. I used a 72 volt Samsung 25R 10 ah battery and it got me up to 48 mph at 3600w. Come check it out!

 

[RiverRat]

Hey im about to drop some $$ on 200 25r's from Evva technologies and they have sent me an invoice. Should I ask to pay via paypal or escrow for some kind of assurance ?

One last thing as Ive bought the bbs 02 is the c rating overkill for what i would need . Am i better off going with a higher capacity battery over c rating?

Cheers

 

[x-speed]

Hey im about to drop some $$ on 200 25r's from Evva technologies and they have sent me an invoice. Should I ask to pay via paypal or escrow for some kind of assurance ?

Evva is one of the more established dealers. But I would not go without some sort of escrow. You have no other reasonable legal means in case of a problem.
They offered "T/T or Escrow/Aliexpress". Don't know if paypal on request.

One last thing as Ive bought the bbs 02 is the c rating overkill for what i would need . Am i better off going with a higher capacity battery over c rating?

What is your (smallest) battery size which you want to use and what current/power limits do you want to use?

10C cells most often are overkill. cap unnecessarily traded for Ri. unless you design your battery to be exhausted within <1.5h riding time with >2C peak currents, or when you want to use the battery heavily in ice-cooled state in winter. (I ride in winter, but my batteries don't cool out significantly within 3h due to suitable housing and storing/charging indoors)

Standard EV/ebike batteries are designed for some 3h riding time. With usual peak-to-pause relations the peak currents are max 1.0 .. 1.5C .
Professional quality battery builders then choose ~3C cells in order to have some reserves for good cycle life and a good balance of all. Thus 10A/3.4C rated 18650 cells like NCR PF/PD, NCR BD, LG MG1, LG MH1, Sam 29E are the current top cells which have ~9..10Wh. These cells however already lack a PTC security device as well as the 10C cells do.
High cap or low price 2C/6A laptop cells (which are more safe particularly regarding inter-cell shortcuts) also do the job for less ambitious designs, though with somewhat reduced cycle life of ~150 .. 250 full cycles with such peak loads. Perhaps add 1s more for voltage drop then. Most people don't accumulate enough full cycle equivalents until the next super-duper cell generation appears within some 3 .. 5years. After 3 years the salvage value of your battery will be quite low anyway with respect to progress.
High cap 2C cells like NCR B, LG D1 ~11Wh are best for lightweight long range cycle tour batteries (or range extender batteries for parallel connection) designed for <0.7C peak currents.

 

[ridethelightning]

the c rating seems to be very generous for the 20R.
real world sees voltage sag kick in bigtime at the rated max discharge levels. yes they will do it, not for very long

if you want a bike with punch, go the 25R, with plenty in paralelle.not the lower c ,high capacity cells.

the 25R are really only second best to using lipo, but then theres all that fire risk etc...crap quality etc

 

[\/ampa]

And the 25R is the only li-ion NMC with 2C fast charge rating i think.
The faster you discharge a li-ion cell the less capacity it will have depending in the cell IR.

 

[pwd]

FYI, I just noticed that EM3EV is now offering the 25R cells in the larger size rectangular packs:

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=35

 

[evb]

http://epowerbikes.ru/constructor.php
Great simulator on fitting your 18650 in to frame.
Ok, This is one is in the wrong languge but pretty intuitive.

Sorry for the late response . I corrected my mistake and translated this page on "right" language
Now you can to use all functions without inscriptions in an unknown language
http://epowerbikes.ru/constructor-en.php

 

[silicium]

http://epowerbikes.ru/constructor.php
Great simulator on fitting your 18650 in to frame.
Ok, This is one is in the wrong languge but pretty intuitive.

Sorry for the late response . I corrected my mistake and translated this page on "right" language
Now you can to use all functions without inscriptions in an unknown language
http://epowerbikes.ru/constructor-en.php

Very Good Idea ! 8)

 

[Allex]

Yes, spasibo!

 

[Simple818]

So I'm just curious. If I wanted say a 15s7p pack of the samsung25r welded with a BMS here in the states , is there anyone here on ES that would be willing to build a pack for me for cost of course.
I know em3ev sells them but I'm just wondering what kind of price somebody here could offer these to me. I don't really feel comfortable building the pack myself. So, if there is anybody out there willing to do this let me know. I'm not in immediate need of a pack but I am keeping my feelers out.
Thanks