Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 battery

[nukezero]

hey guys, i found this chart on samsungs page. It looks like the categorize the 22P and 29E for the ebike. But for the lawnmower, they recommend the 20R, 25R, and 20Q, and 15M. I am surprised the 20Q dishes out more amps than the newer 25R !

Wow, I'm guessing that they think a e-lawnmower requires more power than an ebike>..

 

[ridethelightning]

@ nukezero Any of the batteries you listed will work. The 25R or HE2 have good power output @20A per cell the VTC5 has a little higher power output but for substantially more money. The 25R or HE2 will have more than enough power for your needs of 20A. Both the HE2 and 25R can give you 80A in a 4p configuration.

sounds good. now i need to find somebody to source the 25R from, buy the case, and have them do some spot welding?
then I need to buy a separate BMS...

question, if a battery is pre-welded with a tab, can you just solder the other open end to another bare top battery?

Time to order 56 pieces of 25R from supower111 on ebay. Then buy some tabs to solder them to. Oh, this will be fun...

better contact Lilian direct- supowerbattery@gmail.com, get a better price and free spotwelding /cell spacers etc.

 

[madin88]

If the VTC5 is IMR then it is NOT the same as the 25R which are ICR.

the Samsungs are ICR, which have no Manganese

its very confusing..
at dampfakkus.de all are declared as LiNiMnCo = NMC
In the datasheet the 25R is declared as NCA and you say it is ICR
as i said its very confusing..

 

[cal3thousand]

If the VTC5 is IMR then it is NOT the same as the 25R which are ICR.

the Samsungs are ICR, which have no Manganese

its very confusing..
at dampfakkus.de all are declared as LiNiMnCo = NMC
In the datasheet the 25R is declared as NCA and you say it is ICR
as i said its very confusing..

Yup NCA = ICR ... if you look at the full Samsung part number it is : ICR18650-25R

 

[madin88]

Yup NCA = ICR ... if you look at the full Samsung part number it is : ICR18650-25R

thanks for your explaination.
so the declaration at dampfakkus.de website (and some other german shops) is wrong.
Now no more confusing

The question is: do we need cells with high calendar life or do we more need high cycle life?
Of course, if the Al cells have the same cycle life as the Mn cells than it is clear what chemistry we should prefer, but how things will look like if we compare for example the VTC5 and 25R at 10A discharge / 2A charge after 300 cycles?
will it be Mn > Al or Al > Mn?

for my commute i normally charge my VTC4 battery every 2-3 days to full or sometims daily from about 70% to full. this means about 100cycles per year. If i can use it more than 5 years without a big decrease in capacity and rise in resistance during this time, im very happy.

 

[migueralliart]

The 20Q does NOT discharge more than the 20R.

In both listings supower has the 20Q as a 15A cell and the 20R as a 20A cell.

Plus I once discharge tested the 20Q and it got hotter than the 20R. I don't have the data but I could not hold it in my hand after a 10A discharge to 3v.

 

[Allex]

The question is: do we need cells with high calendar life or do we more need high cycle life?

Should be one easy answer here, you need a chemistry with high calendar life@100-200 cycles per year

 

[cwah]

If the VTC5 is IMR then it is NOT the same as the 25R which are ICR.

the Samsungs are ICR, which have no Manganese

its very confusing..
at dampfakkus.de all are declared as LiNiMnCo = NMC
In the datasheet the 25R is declared as NCA and you say it is ICR
as i said its very confusing..

Yup NCA = ICR ... if you look at the full Samsung part number it is : ICR18650-25R

I understood that ICR = NMC and INR = NCA

So ICR has shorter calendar life than INR

 

[Ebikebert]

@ nuke zero contact supowerbatter111 directly don't even bother with ebay just use paypal you will get a better bulk price. Have the vendor tab weld it in paralel ( they do a good job) and all you have to do is solder it up in series. As for a case the pelican case is my personal preference.

 

[nukezero]

@ nuke zero contact supowerbatter111 directly don't even bother with ebay just use paypal you will get a better bulk price. Have the vendor tab weld it in paralel ( they do a good job) and all you have to do is solder it up in series. As for a case the pelican case is my personal preference.

solder it up in series? you mean I would still have to solder the tabs together. That's still 13 series cells I would have to solder as opposed to 4 group of cells if I'm doing parallel.

this is the case I'm buying and this is a picture of how they are putting the cells together. I think it would make sense to have supowerbatery111 tab weld 13 cells in series.. and ship me 4 blocks of those 13s. Then I'll just solder a wire together to get 4P ?

I wonder what gauge wires and how many wires I need to use to "jump" the 4 parallel packs together to get the 4p (since each cell is 2500mAh), the total capacity would be 2.5aH x 4 = 10aH.

 

[Ebikebert]

that works also, for me it was worth it to put it in paralel so i could save a substantial amount of money on shipping.

 

[cal3thousand]

See here:

ICR has no Mn... the C is for Co

IMR is Mn... the M is for Mn

 

[cwah]

The cells are INR18650 not IMR. So it's not Limn. My understanding is that the chemistry is NCA

 

[cal3thousand]

The cells are INR18650 not IMR. So it's not Limn. My understanding is that the chemistry is NCA

As I understand INR = Lithium Manganese Nickel

NCA = Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum

 

[Hillhater]

Simples !!

So .. what does the "R" stand for in all these ?

 

[madin88]

What the hell this really begs for a international standardisation!

 

[cal3thousand]

Agreed... it needs to be nailed down and wiki'd

 

[cwah]

information map here:
http://budgetlightforum.com/node/27602
http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-cgi/jvcr21pz.cgi?E+BA+4+ACA4001+4++WW

 

[madin88]

cwah, thanks for this info.

here the infos copy out of the link:

ICR = Lithium Cobalt oxide positive electrode (LiCo)

IFR = Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4)

IMR = Lithium Manganese oxide positive electrode (LiMn)

INR = Lithium Nickel oxide positive electrode

NCA = Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminium oxide

NCR = Lithium Nickel Cobalt? NMC = Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt oxide

Hybrid = Hybrid Technologies?

 

[Ebikebert]

Thanks for clearing that up guys, just an update my batteries have finally made it to the U.S. after 2 weeks so i should get the batteries before this saturday. Once i have the cells on hand i will take some pictures and then build the pack to test it out (with 25R cells).

 

[sflorlando]

Hey Ebikebert,

Would love to see some pics and a thread when you do it.

 

[Ebikebert]

absolutely!

 

[Ebikebert]

Hey guys, The 25R Samsung batteries will arrive at my house today i will take some initial pictures of the batteries. I will post the build progress in a few days.

 

[district9prawn]

Check out this thread on a chinese forum.
http://www.shoudian.org/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=391456&extra=page%3D1%26filter%3Dtypeid%26typeid%3D1&page=1

They tested the samsung and LG cell at discharge currents up to 30A. The samsung cell has the edge in terms of capacity. Both get quite hot at 20A and are scorching at 30A. Couldn't see the curves though, even after I registered.

 

[madin88]

interesting. maybe you have to make some posts or do a activation confirmation before you can see the pics.

at dampfakkus.de the Sony VTC5 seems seems to be the best performing cell of that three..