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Samsung INR18650-20R .. yes these cells can punch, new 24R

What do you guys think of these?

http://intl-outdoor.com/2-pcs-kingkong-inr26650e-4000mah-liion-battery-p-369.html

http://www.meritline.com/inr26650-26650-4000mah-rechargeable-battery---p-109409.aspx

Pretty tempting if they are legit.

EDIT

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/King%20Kong%20INR26650E%204000mAh%20%28Gold%29%20UK.html

The cells has acceptable performance up to 7A, but I will not recommend using them at higher currents.
Disappointing.
 
iv just ordered a 22s10p pack or 20r cells from supower.(in separate 1s10p lots)my wallet it still reeling fom the impact :D

i diddnt buy the alleged same cells from batterybuilding .com for a cheap$2.5 per cell as i decided it was too good to be true. i think they may be just a front for victopower, as they got my address out of the blue, after id enquired at victopower...hmmm.

anyway. stay tuned. im going to strap them onto a giant glory8+cromotor., just gotta build the dropout plates first... and get a couple of hyperion 1420i's.
 
cells arrived from supower. well packed and in like 4 days from when i ordered! nice tabwelding and spacers too.
very impressed so far.

the colour of the cells is a little greener than previous photos on this thread, otherwise identical.

Lillian also declared a lower value so i could avoid tax :D and a lower capacity so the shipping co. would ship such a large pack. it arrived in 2 boxes.
 
please post photos, I have a 24s4p pack of samsung 20rs invoiced to me already..even with balance wires and shrink wrapped. Going to use a bc168 charger to balance charge.

Total to my door-780.
 
tried uploading some pics... sory, having some issues downsizing them . annoying.

however the cells/spacers are exactly like the ones shown earlier on this thread. the coluor ended up the same in the phtos i took too, much bluer.
 
ridethelightning said:
tried uploading some pics... sory, having some issues downsizing them . annoying.

however the cells/spacers are exactly like the ones shown earlier on this thread. the coluor ended up the same in the phtos i took too, much bluer.

Have you tried photobucket. I always upload there then post the link here.

Great to hear success stories with these cells. I'm using my pack on a daily basis. So far so good. I'm up to 200+ miles on the pack and I can't notice any capacity decrease. I'm discharging to 30% capacity and then storing it at 50% over the weekends. I charge to 100% daily for my commute.
 
migueralliart said:
ridethelightning said:
tried uploading some pics... sory, having some issues downsizing them . annoying.

however the cells/spacers are exactly like the ones shown earlier on this thread. the coluor ended up the same in the phtos i took too, much bluer.

Have you tried photobucket. I always upload there then post the link here.

Great to hear success stories with these cells. I'm using my pack on a daily basis. So far so good. I'm up to 200+ miles on the pack and I can't notice any capacity decrease. I'm discharging to 30% capacity and then storing it at 50% over the weekends. I charge to 100% daily for my commute.

What's your procedure for bringing the pack up to storage charge (50%)?
 
Paul (cell_man) at em3ev.com is now selling his triangle and rectangle battery packs with the 20R cell as an option. He has acquired samples, tested them thoroughly, and negotiated supply contracts...and he is now ready to roll.

With a 20R pack, the BMS is the limiting factor [at 40A max]. A 20R equipped pack with 17.5-Ah can easily deliver 80A or more. The 20R delivers High Current effortlessly, with little voltage sag and also tends to maintain a higher voltage at the end of the discharge, and with a flatter discharge curve...

Small pack: http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=158
INR18650-20R___11.7-Ah___$630____Runs cool at VERY high amps, can provide 55A peak, limited by BMS to 40A continuous/peak.

Large pack: http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=123
INR18650-20R___17.5-Ah___$905____ Runs cool at VERY high amps, can provide 80A peak, limited by BMS to 40A continuous/peak.
 
migueralliart said:
While buying a ready made pack is good for most plug and play people I would not recommend paying 1000$+ on packs from em3ev. Especially after my past experiences with his shipping/customer support.

To each its own thou.

The A123 Triangle pack I got from em3ev is the best pack I've ever owned, but yes. To each its own.
 
cal3thousand said:
What's your procedure for bringing the pack up to storage charge (50%)?

I just ride it until 70% DOD (usually my commute roundtrip) when I get home I just charge for an 1hrs and that's it.

70% of 8Ah = 2.4AH left of capacity

I plug it for one hour in my 15S 1.8 A charger

2.4 +1.8 = 4.2Ah approx 50%
 
el_walto said:
migueralliart said:
While buying a ready made pack is good for most plug and play people I would not recommend paying 1000$+ on packs from em3ev. Especially after my past experiences with his shipping/customer support.

To each its own thou.

The A123 Triangle pack I got from em3ev is the best pack I've ever owned, but yes. To each its own.

+1
 
It seems in the next couple of weeks there is going to be a 24R version of this cell available :). Some samples are on their way here. I'll review once I get them. Some pictures as always. 2.4AH hell yeah!

IMG_0796_zpse353dac0.jpg

IMG_0800_zps5f510e6e.jpg


IMG_0811_zps0493f436.jpg
 
only 13mOhm with 2,4Ah?

thats awesome!!

What exactly chemistry they have and do they need balancing?
 
migueralliart said:
el_walto said:
migueralliart said:
While buying a ready made pack is good for most plug and play people I would not recommend paying 1000$+ on packs from em3ev. Especially after my past experiences with his shipping/customer support.

To each its own thou.

The A123 Triangle pack I got from em3ev is the best pack I've ever owned, but yes. To each its own.

+1

I should probably just let it go, but what the hell.

Question:
1. Did I send you parts to help repair the shipping damage to the motor? Yes I did, the parts were shipped DHL and I included an ebike tester FOC in that package too.
2. Before I sent the replacement parts, did I offer to have the damaged motor collected and repaired, at my cost?
3. Did you use courier service, like I would use to Ship a battery for example? (I'll take the liberty of answering that, No you didn't, Budget SAL shipping was used). How does your isolated incident of a motor in a wheel, damaged in transit, relate to shipping a battery via Courier?

If the answers to questions 1, 2 and 3 are yes, yes and no. The facts don't seem to match your statement about our poor customer support. Granted, something was damaged in transit. Now whether that damage was avoidable or not is debatable, but to to say that support was refused, is not backed up by the communications, or rather lack of communications, that were had at the time. I don't know the extent of the damage until I am told, I can't offer a resolution until things have been discussed. If you didn't like my initial response, clarify the problem, send me a pic, let me know exactly what the problem is, so we can discuss how to resolve. It is not fair to expect a supplier to offer the World instantly, when an issue is reported. It needs some discussion.

After everything that was said, I still supported you as demonstrated by the various back and forth emails after your review post was closed by moderators.

Just so everybody can see, email sent to me below, comments/info of interest in bold (timezones may affect time stamps, but you get the idea). Even if you have some sort of resentment towards someone, I still think it is reasonable to be honest, especially when you are asking for that person's assistance:

From: xxxxx [mailto:xxxxxralliart@xxxx.com]
Sent: 23 July 2013 06:54
To: Order
Subject: Re: EM3ev Tracking Info

Paul,
Talked to FedEx about the shipment and they couldn't hold it and returned it. Even thou I called them and said to hold for pick up.
Anyway I wish there was an easier way to do this but now the motor has other problems. It seems when I give throttle the motor accelerates and then stops so I have to bring throttle to zero and redo to get Any acceleration. All the colors match up and the throttle is a simple throttle. I reprogrammed the controller to have lower current ~28 amps since I didn't want the phase to get warm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw_4ZljaghI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyCDpx6MIdM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
The videos are not public or searchable just in case and I have not posted anything on ES about this.
None of the phases are shorted against the axle. It might be a faulty clutch or something.
Please advise what to do next.
Regards,
Orlando




ES post: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51995&p=771452#p771452




ES OP copied below:

MAC motor problems - Stuttering, on/off

Postby migueralliart » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:10 pm
Ok so I connected everything I received in a MAC kit. Went ahead and fired it and it worked. Rode the bike for a couple of miles then placed it in my garage.

The next morning it started doing the following;

It will work when I apply the throttle for a second or 2 then it won't work again until I zero the throttle and do it again.

I checked the phases and they are not shorting to the axle.

I also checked all the wiring to the battery and the controller matches up.

Will check the throttle but it is a brand new throttle.

The battery is charged and the LVC in the controller is not the problem.

I made 2 videos of the motor.

I have not tested the halls yet. If they are bad my next step is to test with a sensorless controller.

Any feedback is appreciated.

Last edited by migueralliart on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
 
The increased capacity of the 24R is a good development (20R=2000mAh, 24R=2400mAh).

I have a running theory that the increased C-rate of these cells are a result of an increased number of internal parallel sub-cells. Just a theory, but...enough people have tested and run the headway and Samsung 20R cells that I do believe they provide a high C-rate. But if their respective chemistries are common old-school (LiFePO4 and LiMn), how can they provide the higher C-rate without getting hot?

I saw a video a while back showing how cells are manufactured, and the 18650's are a long ribbon of the same material that is used to make the flat foil packs, but in an 18650, the ribbon is rolled up. The clue for me is that the higher-C-rate cells have a lower capacity, so...what takes up the extra room inside the cell, causing the lower capacity? dividing up the internal ribbon into several smaller sub-cells that are connected in parallel might be one reason. Since the 20R used in a common size of pack can safely provide over 60A of peak current (and 40-ish amps of constant?), the 24R cell would be the best possible cell configuration for my needs. I hope to perform surgery on one of these soon.

A higher amount of amp-hours in the same size of pack while still providing over a 25A constant C-rate and 35A peak would be great, as long as the other performance characteristics were not compromised. Only time will tell, but now I am very interested in these 24R's...
 
Gotta say it, Paul...Cell Man ....has always done good by myself. Have ordered quite a bit of kit from him in the past and will do in the future. Shit does happen... But I've found infinitely more reliable than some of the other dealers I've used.
 
spinningmagnets said:
The increased capacity of the 24R is a good development (20R=2000mAh, 24R=2400mAh).
how can they provide the higher C-rate without getting hot?

I saw a video a while back showing how cells are manufactured, and the 18650's are a long ribbon of the same material that is used to make the flat foil packs, but in an 18650, the ribbon is rolled up. The clue for me is that the higher-C-rate cells have a lower capacity, so...what takes up the extra room inside the cell, causing the lower capacity? dividing up the internal ribbon into several smaller sub-cells that are connected in parallel might be one reason. Since the 20R used in a common size of pack can safely provide over 60A of peak current (and 40-ish amps of constant?), the 24R cell would be the best possible cell configuration for my needs. I hope to perform surgery on one of these soon.

The high C-rate capabilities would be due to lower internal resistance (for heat generation etc).

I initially just guessed thicker foil allows for higher current transfer - but I guessed wrong.

http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/apps/projects/logos/4/285224/080/deliverables/001_D41SuperLIBDeliverablev03942012final.pdf

This article says that foil thickness has little effect on resistivity - what is interesting is that they mentioned to increase C-Rate (lower internal resistance) you must decrease the thickness of the active layer. It states HP cells have 30-40% less coating than HE cells.

Thinner cathode/anode means less stored chemical potential energy, but also means that you can cram more into the 18650 - so I wouldnt be surprised if you find a longer rolled sheet in the high power cells than the high energy cells!
 
I wouldn't be surprised if you find a longer rolled sheet in the high power cells than the high energy cells

Thanks for that info. Does anybody have a dud 20R that I could get for free? I will pay postage...I have a handful of conventional LiMn 18650's to pull apart and compare.

I would also be interested in the internal differences in a Panasonic 29E. Perhaps $5 paypal for postage for each dud cell to Kansas/66441, central USA? I promise to take pics of the surgery and the autopsy.
 
migueralliart said:
Anyway back on topic.....


I have to setup the discharge equipment t to do the 5 amps 10, 15 and 20 amp discharge tests.

Stay on topic yourself. Every time I spot you spreading lies, I am perfectly within my rights to defend my company. I couldn't give a monkeys if you have something personally against me, that is your problem. Taking the opportunity to take a dig at my business is nothing to do with the topic. I''m merely demonstrating that your accusations are not actually based on facts, facts that can be easily confirmed. Was there shipping damage, yes. Did we do something to resolve the issue, yes we did. A bit of shipping damage does not justify your actions.
 
migueralliart said:
I wonder what is Samsung actually targeting these cells for?

Power tools ? Ebikes?

I mean the 20R are a recent development.

The way things look I believe we'll see better 18650 cells in the next year or so as well.

Tesla just signed contract with Panasonic for 2 billion 18650 cells in the next 4 years.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=54831

Even buck a cell its a lot of dough.
Obviously other companies want to get in on the action.
 
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