Shimano Launches Components Range for Electric Bikes

[Malcolm]

Our disagreements over what makes the "ideal" electric bike just seem to reflect the difference in markets as a whole. The population density in the UK is 660 people per square mile, compared to 83 people per square mile in the US. This alone makes a massive difference in what we can and can't get away with – legally and socially.

In the small city where I live the roads are often close to gridlock at rush hour. A bike with a small motor is the fastest way to get about. The motor has to be small because we often share paths with pedestrians, and anything that is obviously over-powered will soon attract unwelcome attention.

There are also cultural differences. Generally speaking, bikes have a fairly neutral status in the UK, but I get a strong impression from what I've read here that they have a low status in parts of the USA, so you have to slap on a big motor to compensate

 

[amberwolf]

Partly it's likely that. I know that if I were allowed to keep up with traffic, at least on CrazyBike2 that doesn't *look* like a bicycle at first glance, I'd get a lot less "get off the road" yells from motorists.

But since the laws restrict me to 20MPH I cannot keep up on most roads. Sidewalk riding around here is generally a bad idea, as there are too many obstacles that can't be ridden around safely:
pedestrians
powerchairs
kids on bikes, scooters, skates, etc
utility poles
construction holes (or missing sidewalk segments from never-completed construction)
permanent traffic signs
temporary construction detail signs
parked cars
very narrow sidewalks (barely wide enough for a single person to walk on)
overhanging trees below handlebar level
bushes/trees/cactus/etc that stick out too far (even onto the road)
vehicles that suddenly pull out from driveways that you couldn't even see existed at that angle until you are about to cross them (and they can't see you, either)
and other stuff I forgot already while typing.

Even just riding at slow cyclist speeds, 5-8Mph, is too fast for many of the sidewalks around here. I will only ride on them when instructed to do so by a police officer, which is very rare, or when traffic or road conditions would be literally suicidal to ride in the road (also very rare), or when they are specified as the actual bike path, because those sidewalks are much much wider, and generally laid out to prevent most of the above list of problems.

 

[AussieJester]

If you want an electric moped, that's fine. I agree there's a huge potential market there, too. I don't understand the continuous sneering whenever the subject of true pedal-assist bikes comes up, though..

Totally agree Miles, this site has some members (myself included) that are into high powered e-bikes but these are illegal, why on earth would a mulit million dollar company commit to buildings bikes that aren't rideable legally on public streets. Those that are complaining have lost site the that e-bikes are meant to be assisted by the electric motor not be the primary source of motivation. If the law in Europe remains at 250watt dont expect things to change. If you want a high powered electric bike and are not happy with breaking the e-bike laws convert a motorcycle and get it licensed as that is pretty much all alot have now minus the lightening and the addition of pedals that are there purely for show.

KiM

 

[liveforphysics]

There are also cultural differences. Generally speaking, bikes have a fairly neutral status in the UK, but I get a strong impression from what I've read here that they have a low status in parts of the USA, so you have to slap on a big motor to compensate

This is true, at least for the cultural view I've seen in the places I've lived in the USA, if you're an adult on a bike, people automatically classify you as either a drunk/DUI guy, a guy with no money for a car, or if you're in lycra on a roadbike, then a yuppie and/or hippie.

People in passing cars often yell things at cyclists and/or throw things. I've seen it many times...
This is a damn shame, because a bicycle is a fantastic form of transporation, and an excellent choice in many situations, even if you have plenty of money to spend on cars and a drivers licence.

 

[liveforphysics]

The part I don't like much about the 250w ebike stuff is fairly simple.

My first ebike experience was because Methy called me told me I had to try out an ebike. I found a shop that did bionix kitted bikes. I tried it, and I was disgusted in just about every way you can be disgusted in an experience with a product. The herky-jerky pedal sense thing with no throttle for control, the weight of the bike (last bicycle experience was a nimble light roadbike, this thing felt like riding a sack of concrete to pedal), and even the price left a bad taste in my mouth.

I was throughly turned-off from ebikes. Absolutely 100% not interested, and ready to join the crowd of people calling ebikes tools for wimpy needle-dicks.

Fortunately... Methy talked me into trying another one, something with a real throttle, I found a place selling some giant brand hubmotor factory ebike. It felt pretty awful to ride compared to a nimble roadbike, but... its little 500w motor and throttle setup was just enough to give me a wiff of the potential for fun if you had like 10x-20x the power behind it... And hence my first e-bike build started, and I've been hooked ever since.

If a factory wants to make a good bike, sell a bike with a 9C on it with a small diameter rear wheel, and set it up with 1kwhr of battery, a real throttle, and a controller that makes the motor actually output the legal ebike limit of 750w (maybe a 1000w-1200w controller).

For the prices they sell these pre-made ebikes for (i think the giant i test rode was marked at like $1800!), they could spend like $1,000 at full retail prices to build some actually functional transporation for people that would be fun and practical to use.

 

[AussieJester]

If a factory wants to make a good bike, sell a bike with a 9C on it with a small diameter rear wheel, and set it up with 1kwhr of battery, a real throttle, and a controller that makes the motor actually output the legal ebike limit of 750w (maybe a 1000w-1200w controller).

And they could only be sold in USofA Luke what about the rest of the world with 250watt limit or less
Really can't see a big multimillion dollar companies like Shimano building bikes like this for America
when its already been confirmed by many here most Americans don't even like normal bicycles.
Companies will build to cater for the demand, thats in Europe not USA so they adhere to
the laws there not in USA

KiM

 

[liveforphysics]

If a factory wants to make a good bike, sell a bike with a 9C on it with a small diameter rear wheel, and set it up with 1kwhr of battery, a real throttle, and a controller that makes the motor actually output the legal ebike limit of 750w (maybe a 1000w-1200w controller).

And they could only be sold in USofA Luke what about the rest of the world with 250watt limit or less
Really can't see a big multimillion dollar companies like Shimano building bikes like this for America
when its already been confirmed by many here most Americans don't even like normal bicycles.
Companies will build to cater for the demand, thats in Europe not USA so they adhere to
the laws there not in USA

KiM

Sadly, I do think you're right.

 

[AussieJester]

Sadly, I do think you're right.

I don't see it as such a bad thing though Luke, if higher powered ebikes were readily available
it wouldn't take long for the idiots out there to run riot on them resulting in more unwanted
attention/laws etc ...


KiM

 

[torker]

Sadly, I do think you're right.

I don't see it as such a bad thing though Luke, if higher powered ebikes were readily available
it wouldn't take long for the idiots out there to run riot on them resulting in more unwanted
attention/laws etc ...


KiM

Exactly right. I was going to work yesterday doing 75 in a 65 shhh :wink: and a guy in shorts flops and no helmet passed me at 100+ on a superbike. I checked the mirror once and didn't see him and checked about 3 seconds later so I could pass someone and there he was. Scared the crap out of me. Most cell phoners would of creamed him. Unfortunatly highpowered ebikes are going to get the same results in attention and injuries. I agree though. Unless they made a US version with 5 to 700 watts I wouldn't buy it but Grandma might..

 

[AussieJester]

and a guy in shorts flops and no helmet passed me at 100+ on a superbike.

Makes me shudder when i see drips like this
on bikes, obviously ones that have never
fallen off on the road at speed before. Worse
still when they have their girlfriend on the back
in shorty shorts and bikini top or similar. No
idea.

KiM

 

[nikos7]

Just a thought...with my Cycle Analyst, I can set my current, power and speed limit electronically to comply with the law even though I am running up to 6700 watts and going over 40mph . Would this be sufficient in the eyes of the law? Or is it necessary that I have a motor that could only handle 750 watts to be legal in the USA? After all, every car and motorcycle you buy can break the speed limit in most cases. Typically, it's up to the driver of a motorcycle or car to limit his speed to comply with posted speed limits.

 

[Miles]

Just a thought...with my Cycle Analyst, I can set my current, power and speed limit electronically to comply with the law........

Not sure about the US but, in Europe, the limit is specified by the continuous output rating of the motor (which isn't strictly a fixed value, anyway!). If you limited the absolute output to the continuous rating (assuming there's a practical way to do so), you would be handicapping yourself...

After all, every car and motorcycle you buy can break the speed limit in most cases. Typically, it's up to the driver of a motorcycle or car to limit his speed to comply with posted speed limits.

This isn't relevant, I'm afraid.

 

[auraslip]

While I'm sure Shimano appreciates our input about the wattage rating of the kit, I think we should focus less on their need to stay legal in most markets and more on the amazing technology in their kits!

In the full set you’ll get a 250-watt front hub motor (geared), a torque-sensing bottom-bracket, a rotation-sensing crankset, a rack-mounted battery with integrated rear lamp, a pair of brake levers with switches to control everything, a front lamp and a bar-mounted computer so you know what it is all doing. Finally, at the back you have one of Shimano’s 8-speed Nexus hubs which has electronic shifting.

I don't know if it does, but it sounds like it would be possible for the nexus hub to automatically shift as needed. That is frickin amazing if you think about it!

Also if you look at the picture, it looks like the torque arm is integrated into the motor.


Also this mean we now will have access to quality E-brake levers, and throttles made out of something besides plastic!

 

[mwkeefer]

US Law is "A motor producing no more than 1HP output power" - so depending on efficiency of the motor, that means about 1000w input power (ish).

Provided that you know the efficiency of your motor at any given RPM / Voltage you could in theory adjust the current limit as the pack discharges to ensure sufficient input power to equal 1 HP of output power.

Now if you just stuck with the CA to make your setup compliant:

1.) Figure out motor efficiency at your voltage
2.) Calculate actual output at 750w input or better, just calculate required input for 750w output (including losses)
3.) Set the CA to limit current to the answer found for #2
4.) Set the CA to interrupt the throttle at 20.1 mph

You would now be fully legally compliant and tuned for maximum legal output power

-Mike

 

[liveforphysics]

Not sure about the US but, in Europe, the limit is specified by the continuous output rating of the motor (which isn't strictly a fixed value, anyway!). If you limited the absolute output to the continuous rating (assuming there's a practical way to do so), you would be handicapping yourself...

This means, any motor is legal to use in Europe simply by wrapping it in insulation and taping over the vent holes until it can't reject 250w (or whatever your limit is) before melting inside. Wana run the big Agni motor? No problem, wrap it in ~3-4" of insulation, and you've got a motor with a 200W continuous power limit.

 

[neoplasticity]

I actually agree that an e bike should be first and foremost a bike. if you want an electic bike that you don't need to pedal that can keep up with traffic, several companies already make those. They're called electric motorcycles. This is the one I have on preorder right now: http://www.brammo.com/empulse/

I think the current electric bicycles on the market are too heavy and do not function well as real bicycles. When I lived in PA, I commuted every day on a non electric road bike and it was great. it was fast, I got lots of exercise and it was actually alot of fun. but my commute then was 3 miles and relatively flat.

Now that I've moved and I live 9 miles from work and the ride home is almost a 1000 foot vertical climb, I'm just not that motivated to commute by bike. but if i had a bike that could just make the hills seem flat, i'd love it. Ideally, I want the electric part of the bike to add 10 lbs max to my bike. That would make my 22 lb bike about 32 lbs. That's why I'm watching Kepler's friction drive with much interest. I think something small and light like that would be perfect.

I have another work location here that is 18 miles away. For that I plan on riding my empulse because riding a bicycle that far is just not practical for me. for that, I need a e-motorcycle. and that seems to be what many on this forum mean when they say e-bike. in my mind, an e-bike that can hit 50mph and doesn't require pedalling is no longer a bicycle, it's a motorcycle.

 

[veloman]

Well said.

I think this low powered Shimano setup is great. People want bikes (lightweight, easy to use, simple), but one of the main drawbacks is that trips over a couple miles, especially with hills - is a lot of sustained work. Assisting the rider with just 200 watts takes the bulk of the work off them, when they choose.

The low power also allows a smaller and cheaper battery, much lighter motor, and so on.

The US laws on ebikes aren't really that bad IMO. 20mph is faster than most cyclists travel, especially if you add in hills and stops. It would nice if we could go 30 with no hassles, to stay safer, but laws never fit everyone. And 750w continuous is a pretty big helping hand on hills, as long as you haven't loaded your bike up to moped weights - but that's why you are riding a BIKE to begin with, right?

 

[veloman]

There are also cultural differences. Generally speaking, bikes have a fairly neutral status in the UK, but I get a strong impression from what I've read here that they have a low status in parts of the USA, so you have to slap on a big motor to compensate

This is true, at least for the cultural view I've seen in the places I've lived in the USA, if you're an adult on a bike, people automatically classify you as either a drunk/DUI guy, a guy with no money for a car, or if you're in lycra on a roadbike, then a yuppie and/or hippie.

People in passing cars often yell things at cyclists and/or throw things. I've seen it many times...
This is a damn shame, because a bicycle is a fantastic form of transporation, and an excellent choice in many situations, even if you have plenty of money to spend on cars and a drivers licence.

So true. It's this cultural thing where people are conditioned to not think logically, they are to think emotionally, as consumers of expensive, wasteful, energy dependent systems. Everything is about maximums, and appearances in this society. Sure I LOVE putting out my own maximum wattage when cycling - there's nothing better in the world! But there's no commercial value in that pursuit. It's all you - it's all about you on the bike (well, there is some consumerism with high technology bike parts). I feel like this society is pushed to live vicariously through all other means - tv, movies, other people, our CARS ("You'll love the 340hp of the new Maxima"). They push it on you - they want you to get gratification from outside means. Stepping on the gas pedal of a powerful car - makes you feel powerful - while support all these completely unsustainable systems and erroding your wealth.

It's with that thinking that cyclists get ridiculed and toyed with - because they are powering their own movement. The thinking is "How lame must you be to power yourself!" Instead of earning respect, they get disrespected for their selflessness (they don't kill car drivers, don't pollute, don't take up nearly as much space), hard work, and achievement. It really just stems from low self esteem from the antagonist, who fears them as a human who doesn't need 300hp to travel to work.

Now, pedaling to commute is hard work. I'm not saying everyone should do it. That is where the great utility of ebikes come in. You pedal as much as you please, you are still active, yet you don't arrive sweaty or tired, and go farther distances, faster, more safely, and enjoy much of the benefits of a normal bicycle (freedom of movement, low cost, sustainability, not affected by traffic, etc).

I use more power to heat the stove to cook a dinner to fuel my additional calories needed to cycle, compared to the amount of power my ebike uses. Ebikes are such amazing tool for transportation, it is a real shame there is not a safe infrastructure for bikes as transportation. A complete shame.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

While I'm sure Shimano appreciates our input about the wattage rating of the kit, I think we should focus less on their need to stay legal in most markets and more on the amazing technology in their kits!

In the full set you’ll get a 250-watt front hub motor (geared), a torque-sensing bottom-bracket, a rotation-sensing crankset, a rack-mounted battery with integrated rear lamp, a pair of brake levers with switches to control everything, a front lamp and a bar-mounted computer so you know what it is all doing. Finally, at the back you have one of Shimano’s 8-speed Nexus hubs which has electronic shifting.

I don't know if it does, but it sounds like it would be possible for the nexus hub to automatically shift as needed. That is frickin amazing if you think about it!

Also if you look at the picture, it looks like the torque arm is integrated into the motor.


Also this mean we now will have access to quality E-brake levers, and throttles made out of something besides plastic!

to me this sounds an awful lot like shimano has recycled their recently discontinued 'coasting' range.

 

[cell_man]

There are also cultural differences. Generally speaking, bikes have a fairly neutral status in the UK, but I get a strong impression from what I've read here that they have a low status in parts of the USA, so you have to slap on a big motor to compensate

This is true, at least for the cultural view I've seen in the places I've lived in the USA, if you're an adult on a bike, people automatically classify you as either a drunk/DUI guy, a guy with no money for a car, or if you're in lycra on a roadbike, then a yuppie and/or hippie.

People in passing cars often yell things at cyclists and/or throw things. I've seen it many times...
This is a damn shame, because a bicycle is a fantastic form of transporation, and an excellent choice in many situations, even if you have plenty of money to spend on cars and a drivers licence.

So true. It's this cultural thing where people are conditioned to not think logically, they are to think emotionally, as consumers of expensive, wasteful, energy dependent systems. Everything is about maximums, and appearances in this society. Sure I LOVE putting out my own maximum wattage when cycling - there's nothing better in the world! But there's no commercial value in that pursuit. It's all you - it's all about you on the bike (well, there is some consumerism with high technology bike parts). I feel like this society is pushed to live vicariously through all other means - tv, movies, other people, our CARS ("You'll love the 340hp of the new Maxima"). They push it on you - they want you to get gratification from outside means. Stepping on the gas pedal of a powerful car - makes you feel powerful - while support all these completely unsustainable systems and erroding your wealth.

It's with that thinking that cyclists get ridiculed and toyed with - because they are powering their own movement. The thinking is "How lame must you be to power yourself!" Instead of earning respect, they get disrespected for their selflessness (they don't kill car drivers, don't pollute, don't take up nearly as much space), hard work, and achievement. It really just stems from low self esteem from the antagonist, who fears them as a human who doesn't need 300hp to travel to work.

Now, pedaling to commute is hard work. I'm not saying everyone should do it. That is where the great utility of ebikes come in. You pedal as much as you please, you are still active, yet you don't arrive sweaty or tired, and go farther distances, faster, more safely, and enjoy much of the benefits of a normal bicycle (freedom of movement, low cost, sustainability, not affected by traffic, etc).

I use more power to heat the stove to cook a dinner to fuel my additional calories needed to cycle, compared to the amount of power my ebike uses. Ebikes are such amazing tool for transportation, it is a real shame there is not a safe infrastructure for bikes as transportation. A complete shame.

It's all part of the rat race. Get on and enjoy the ride..... Spend it before you've earned it, make others rich, stay poor