shorted in rain clyte controller 72v 40a

[scriewy]

i got 2 controllers, clyte 24-72v 40a analog 12 4310 fets sensored and keywin 36-70v 20a 6 4110 fets sensorless.
clyte saw the wrath of Poseidon shorted in rain few months back, the smoke fairy visited inside it, since then i'v been using keywin.

few days ago i split 2 temporary 4s2p 14v 4ah packs that i was putting in series with other 56v 4ah to get 78v 4ah, i split to make 2 8s1p 28v 2ah each pack because thats how the rest are, but i automatically connected the 2 new 28v packs in series as before i connected the 2 14v in series and got sum of 110v+ and fried keywin controller. hm....

months back i opened clyte to see what presents the smoking fairy left, i saw 2 physically scorched fets on yellow phase, ordered 12 4110 for future upgrade and 4 4310 because i wanted to see if i'l be able to fix it.

the 4110 came long time ago, 4310 a month ago (different sellers).

so i basicly got 2 wounded that need engineerical attention. i'm checking both to see who's easyer to fix at this point.

removal of FETs from clyte:
i sniped the legs of the cadaver fets, taking out was easy ha ha ! Relatively to soldering the new ones while they're legs are bent, took me 8 hours to change 2 fets with my special iron.

1 time solder flew between 2 legs of 1 new fet, i tried to clean it without removing it, HoLy fkn goat how hard it was to clear that from the new fet and the hols in the board before i put the new fets.

eventualy i'v done it, hooked controller turned on and poof - some 1 decided to lit a joint in my controller.

then i thought to find some answers before continuing to break stuff because i still had a working keywin, a week passed and i killed keywin.

added to my arsenal of knowledge against the SMOKE GODS how to test capacitors (didn't find here) and FETs, the 3rd FET space you see on board is because i decided to take the new FETs out to test them if they're even alive after all the burning i did with my iron. took me 1 minute to remove it this time, so it's not a problem if any 1 will advise that.

i know inside 1 bank of FETs it's bad to mix different types of FETs because of different resistance and respons times, but can i put 1 bank of 1 type FETs and 2 other banks their own kind ?
like keep under 2 phases 4310 and on yellow to put 4 4110s ?
i got left with 1 spare 4310 while 2 utmost right FETs are still suspects.

so till now i checked in clyte fets through phase wires and bat- bat+, set 200k on DMM, got the ok resistance on blue and green phases while yelow shows 0, then i checked resistance directly on FET legs, got same results on blue and green phases and a bit different at 1 FET on yellow. (i noticed FET values pic wasnt posted, i added it again but it's last now)
View attachment 3

can some fets stay opened after controller shuts off or they all should be closed ?

i dont wanna remove the utmost right 2 FETs unless it's the only way to check if they're alive, they dont show any visual sign of damage, the brown stuff is resin i burned while soldering 8 hours 2 FETs , i checked the big caps with analog meter they're ok, i checked some resistors i noticed repeat near each phase on the back side of board and they test same values.

tell me what stuff next inline could'v got hit that i should check before i put new FETs in so they dont fry because something ells is cruked, tell me where to stick the probes , i'l upload more pics from point zero before i removed the dead FETs.

second wounded - keywin

on the keywin controller i checked FETs and at some point they all went zero infinite ohm, later i noticed DMM wire in lead wore out n torn, fixed it but had to go to work, still gota check caps on it, and how to test the LM317 ? since it's the first thing that gets hit by overvoltage as i learnd here.

clues - when i turn controller power ON turnigy wattmeter reads 0.07ah, then at 110v i turned it on and saw same numbers, i twisted slightly the throttle, motor did little jilt and wattmeter reading jumped to 0.280ah.

what parts should i check after such incident ?



forgot to upload a pic of my super IRON ~~!
adited the post a bit, now through clear mind i noticed it was not so clear yesterday when i was very very tired.

when i check FETs onboard what is of interest to us, capacitance between gate to drain, gate to source or drain to source ?
Any way to know in caps where is - and + if legs of same length ? When i switched analog meter leads it jumps below 0 and starts to charge again R rises to infinity.

 

[theRealFury]

clues - when i turn controller power ON turnigy wattmeter reads 0.07ah, then at 110v i twisted slightly the throttle, motor did little jilt and wattmeter reading jumped to 0.280ah

Well i cant help with any of the electronics stuff but if im reading your post right, your using a 72v crystalyte controller and trying to run it on 110v correct? Surely this is too much voltage for the controller and would lead to overvolting the fets and caps which would be rated to 100v max i think?

 

[scriewy]

yep your right therealfury, but it was a retarded mistake when i was in a hury and let my brain lead on automatic, not intended to run over 80v with 100v components, though methods did try running 100v on 100v system to check how IRFB FETs hold up to their spec and they did.

by they way yesterday i extracted the utmost right FET cos i figured i'l have to extract at least the whole bank anyways and it took me 10-15 sec with my super splited iron, i learn fast muhahahah ! thanks to all people here !

i hooked the FET to 6.6v bats for testing, but forgot to put a lamp, and it was open from the begining did a psssshh sound and fried, second FET acts the same while in board, i'l extract to test it but firstly to control the gate and check with DMM if drain and source open/close, and then with load. this is fun

 

[theRealFury]

yep your right therealfury, but it was a retarded mistake when i was in a hury and let my brain lead on automatic, not intended to run over 80v with 100v components,

Ahh ok sorry, my mistake, i thought you were saying that you are still trying to run it on 110v even after it blew the first time just ignore me.... (goes off to find a coffee machine)

 

[scriewy]

i did sounded like that, i expresed wrongly, thanks to your post i noticed that, come drink the coffee here and glaze the engineeruality on this thread.

i checked on keywin caps, 3x 50v 47uF, 100v 470uF, 25v 220uF, all checked ok.

the FETs acted strange though,
drain - source all open
gate - source 1Mo

 

[scriewy]

some consistent update - checked the FETs on keywin again, from what i see on a healthy FET the

1] gate - drain is usualy around 1Mo
2] gate - source a few dozen k less
3] drain - source 250-300ko

for newbs like me - when the scriblings of the FET (IRFB4310) face you, the left leg is gate, middle is drain, right is source.


in keywin most 1,2 tests were around 1Mo or infinite, test 3 all were 0.01Mo = 10ko, and 1 FET on yellow phase was in all 0.00.

so does this mean they all died from millisecond exposure to 110v ?

LM317 VR - i hooked 55v bat and checked the VR legs, how it's legs called i dont know it was while facing me with the LM317 marking, lets say utmost left is gate, middle drain right source, got this

gate - drain 3.22v
gate - source 3.26v
this is after going through 340 ohm resistor that is on the VCC thin red wire, you can see it smoked in the pic left side of board. (it's smoked when i tested 78v when i first got it, i dealt with that by adding 200 ohm 2W in series when running 78v)

after the resistor, inside goes 32.5v, what then no clue, do these numbers indicate anything about the LM317 ? is it dead ?
i understand that out of it should go 12v, should i see it on it's legs or after some resistors on traces that go out of it ?


on the clyte i dont know if i can test the SMD LM324 VR, it got tiny legs, but that controller was shorted, so hopefully only the yellow phase bank of FETs got hit !

 

[scriewy]

updates - replaced all 4310 FETs because was short of 1 healthy FET, now all 4110.

hooked controller to my clyte 405, it started shuttering and spinning backwards, started testing motor hall sensors.

some sensors switched 0-0.5v some not, opened motor to check for cable shorts, were ok, and tested halls from closer to the legs with 5.2v source, at some point they all showed 5.19v switching ok and later stoped.

i changed 2 oldest of them, new tested weird 0-0.001v but at least they were consistant, after i installed some stoped responding, so i though maybe i'm killing them some how.

next day decided to change the last 3 i had spare without testing them and solder fast in case i burned the previous , glued without pressing on them much, tested and they all were 0-0.0035, WTF ?
But it was consistant switch so i closed the motor back, hooked controller (only bat, phase, sensor, throttle).

this time it spun less shuttering, but still like 1 phase misfiring, befor that it felt like only 1 phase worked, and still backwards, the revers key did make it go forward in same jerky manner, at some point while throtteling up the motor would suddenly accelerate while i hold the throttle steady, when it got to new speed alone i added more twist and it'l accelerate linear, with more speed it got less jerky and at WOT with 26v bat drew 1.25A.

i thought woooheee i'l get to ride on 2 phases, better than nothing.

but today i got an idea to test controller with new puma 500w laying aside with probably working sensors, hooked it, on 1st throttle move, it jerked hard and burned 3A fuse, (i dont know phase sensor combo), tried few more times burned 3A fuses and 15A.
Switched back to clyte and now he blew a 15A fuse but without throttling, just on powering up the controller, violent motor jerk kpss blown fuse, i disconnected the phases from crazy motor and left sensors hooked, turned controller on and spun wheel by hand.

usually there are points while spinning the motor that the controller beeps very quietly to the signal of sensors then silence..beep...silence...beep...silence, this time it was also beeping to the state of the sensors but the other half of the cycle it was squeaking much stronger, so i thought lets keep the wheel at the position it's squeaking hard to understand what's up, after 3 sec the DMM leads made a pop sound their insulation blew, i got a quick glance at amp draw on DMM it was over 20A.

pretty much lost to what the heck is going on, any ideas people ?

 

[theRealFury]

Well, take anything i say with a pinch of salt as im not electronics guru, but if it were me id be making the assumption that the controller is FUBAR 2 different motors and none of the work properly and your blowing 15-20amp fuses with no load, its got to be a controller probalm. My uneducated guess would be a freied microchip as none of the halls sound to be operating as they should even after being replaced?

 

[scriewy]

i think you are right ! i hope the MCU wasn't wounded lethally.....

today i checked around a bit more to narrow down the problem source, i got this stuff.

on the controller
checked hall wires, pos - neg 12.1v, and all signal wires to neg 12.1v, checked them for shorts - non, checked phases again
yellow to neg wire shorted (low side FETs), so it's burnt again somehow, yellow - pos good resistance (high side FETs), how i know on board which ones are the highs and lows ?
rest of phases ok.
throttle - pos - neg 4.9v , pos - signal 4.5v , forth wire battery status to pos or signal 25.6v.

checked motor halls - all as previously, conductivity between phases clean, and not shorted to axle.

what happens is this - when i connect controller halls to motor halls only and powerUP, the red light turns ON and nothing strange, when connecting only phases also no weird behavior, when connecting phases and halls then powering up red light turns on, instantaneously 15A fuse blows, i am all out of little 1A 3A fuses lmao.

this sucks, it was working kinda ok before i stuck the pins into controllers XLR hall connector to connect to pumas different model connector, after that it started blowing fuses.

meanwhile i'l order 1 sensorless and 1 sensored 15A controllers from keywin 22$ each, attractive price for a backup and for testing stuff controller

 

[scriewy]

update

few hours after previous post i remembered if controller is blowing fuses then the phases are shorted or the FETs, checked FETs again, 3rd 1 is dead, shorting, you can see where the empty space is in picture "after i extracted 1 fried FET".

so i narrowed the problem even more, i now know something around the realm of 3rd FET is messed up, what powers it ? what circuit should i check that is responsible for it or connected to it, the 4rth FET doesn't get hurt when the 3rd does, i noticed a trace on drain (middle leg) is a bit missing but when i soldered it it was touching the contact as should.

i removed yellow bank of FETs again.

some 1 around here knows this, don't you ?

 

[scriewy]

time for update !
in short, i fixed both, kinda.....
will elaborate later for noobs like me so you be less frightened from PCBs

had the update for a long time just couldn't find enough time for a full report, actually right now i also can't update fully, only after i rest from my night shift, few months work sleep study....work sleep study.. loop, but for now i have some ferocious pics i am hiding from the world for the last week or so cos didn't have guess WHAT..... the tiiiiiiiii ii iiiiii iii i i i ii ime.

from the pics, does any 1 know what type of transistors are used in crystalyte analog controllers and keywin, i am talking about the smd little ones not the bigger 3 legged, in my clyte it's written on them 5Y, that does not tell me alot, i do know they are NPN i soldered wire to their legs and checked with my DMM, then i searched for NPN 5Y transistors and got transistors varying at 100mhz-300mhz at 50v, but cant tell which 1 is which because there are more in the model tag on the search found transistors, they simply include 5Y as well, to be more precise i tslking sbout the transistors that after few resistors trace to gate leg of FETs.

in keywin pic about which i'l update later as well, there are also transistors after some resistors and caps from the gate leg of FETs, on them it says 1HD i am referring to smd, 1 of them is toast, i didn't check yet if they're NPN or PNP no time but i will (guessing NPN), any 1 know with what i can replace them ?

at what voltage they work or what is minimum frequency needed, i have some common 40v 3409 NPN 400ma, i think 100mhz, forgot, and 80v BC639 1a (these are bigger size, but i dont care to use them, i also scavenged some 50v transistors from a TV board don't recall their model but search said they were also around 100mhz.

gota fix the wounded whooohaaaaaaa !!!

 

[amberwolf]

I cant' see most of the caps on the controller in your pictures, but my guess is one or more of them is blown and leaked, and that would be the yellow goo.

Unless a cat was mad at your bike and decorated your controller with the ends off of it.

 

[scriewy]

you were spot on amberwolf a capacitor leaked !
though it doesnt show any visual damage, i broke my head for several hours from where did a liquid got into my controller that doesnt taste like water, thought maybe it's condensed air from temp differences like my whole bike gets wet overnight outside, looked for ground zero of the leak which led me to 1 of 2 caps 100v 470uf, then i remembered something about liquids in electrolitic caps.

i took it out, the leak is from the legs, it pissed over my board, also noticed a small crater like shape in the solder around + leg.

i scavanged some caps of a TV board 160v 220uf, in controller they are 100v 470uf, i understand at least 100v is a must but is capacity as well ? surely too little capacity like 100uf instead of 470uf might not absorb the whole spike, if the caps are there just for initial power up then i can put little more little less, but if they are doing this with switching of FETs then different capacity caps at same voltage wont be synchronous and that can't be good.

the pics are self explanatory what i am hunting for