Siaecosy 155-64 motor ?

[Ianhill]

Quick question before i commit to buying said motor, I've run a qs138 70h and it's been a tank for me but would like to build a lighter kart for 1 lap time attack, this motor combo with the fardriver 96850b looks to be the daddy but my question is does the rotor have imbeded or surface mount magnets I've dug around and can't find anything other than its data sheet.

The image shows what looks to be offset surface mount magnets is this true and is there any feedback from local true heros ?

 

[mxlemming]

Quick question before i commit to buying said motor, I've run a qs138 70h and it's been a tank for me but would like to build a lighter kart for 1 lap time attack, this motor combo with the fardriver 96850b looks to be the daddy but my question is does the rotor have imbeded or surface mount magnets I've dug around and can't find anything other than its data sheet.

The image shows what looks to be offset surface mount magnets is this true and is there any feedback from local true heros ?

It's an IPM (embedded magnet) motor. It's very salient and produces very good torque per weight.

 

[Ianhill]

Thank you, ill pull the trigger on this beauty then I've got some big ideas for her ill keep you all posted thanks again.

 

[Ianhill]

Im hoping its power to weight and regen ability put it in a class of its own perfect for an adult kart chassis around the 125cc range, eat shifter karts times even with a flying start.
I plan on running short bursts at max power using some salavaged hybrid batterys until i work out how to rob a bank for the amount of molicel p50b i need.

 

[Ianhill]

Done a bit more research on the motor for my needs to be sure its suitable.

Skin effect will reduce the efficency of an hairpin motor at higher rpm vs stranded but depending how the motor is geared and peaks will make or brake if its suitable or not and for a kart its ideal with short bursts of mainly low to mid range rpm with high torque demands with mainly one or two short high speed sections per lap.

The motor has a lower AC resistance at mid range and lower frequencys/rpms im hoping that will allow it to operate more efficiently and deliver higher regen ability than its stranded counterpart in my use case.

The rotor has offset magnets along its length i thought it was segmented surface mount but apparently its to reduce noise and torque ripple im far from any expert just a clever parrot but i can see the rotor is more advanced than that of the qs138 etc.

My conclusion is its perfect for a kart long as the gearing chosen is long enough to keep the rpm down and then the amps high enough to pull said gear easily, but not to rapid that it bursts upto set rpm limit.

Next evolution of these motors needs to follow kia ev 9 lead and have a 4 connection to swap from star to delta and a fardriver controller that can use the extra fets in the controller for boost convertor circuit for charging if needed thats the final boss in my mind.

 

[mxlemming]

Done a bit more research on the motor for my needs to be sure its suitable.

Skin effect will reduce the efficency of an hairpin motor at higher rpm vs stranded but depending how the motor is geared and peaks will make or brake if its suitable or not and for a kart its ideal with short bursts of mainly low to mid range rpm with high torque demands with mainly one or two short high speed sections per lap.

The motor has a lower AC resistance at mid range and lower frequencys/rpms im hoping that will allow it to operate more efficiently and deliver higher regen ability than its stranded counterpart in my use case.

The rotor has offset magnets along its length i thought it was segmented surface mount but apparently its to reduce noise and torque ripple im far from any expert just a clever parrot but i can see the rotor is more advanced than that of the qs138 etc.

My conclusion is its perfect for a kart long as the gearing chosen is long enough to keep the rpm down and then the amps high enough to pull said gear easily, but not to rapid that it bursts upto set rpm limit.

Next evolution of these motors needs to follow kia ev 9 lead and have a 4 connection to swap from star to delta and a fardriver controller that can use the extra fets in the controller for boost convertor circuit for charging if needed thats the final boss in my mind.

Two observations
1) Munro is wrong about the star Delta switching. It's dual motor in one shell. Munro videos are full of nonsense.
2) skin effect isn't really important at the speed that motor will run. It's max is about 7000rpm, 4pp so 466ehz.
Skin depth at that speed is 3mm. The bars are 4mm squares so skin effect doesn't really figure.

Edit: found the patent for this

US20240039448A1 - Electrified vehicle and method of controlling same - Google Patents

An electrified vehicle having a first inverter having a DC terminal and a plurality of legs respectively connected to one end of each of a plurality of coils of a motor, a second inverter connected to the DC terminal, and including a plurality of legs connected to the other ends of the plurality...

patents.google.com

Star switching to individual coil driving. It's clever, but it's not Delta and puts 2x as much silicon in the circuit at any time.

 

[Ianhill]

I have heard the term 4th connection used even when theres 6 actual connections i get i can't tap the middle of a wye connection out the 3 are 120 degrees apart electrically.

Theres no extra windings within the motor, so are you saying the kia motor is fraud doesnt star delta switch on the fly ? Why the extra igbt cost in the controller if so

SIA motor has a max rpm of 7krpm and 12kw rated while the QS simular stranded version has a max rpm of 10krpm and 10kw rated they even hit max efficency at different parts of the rpm range.

Im not saying the sia motor wont hit 10krpm just not what its designed for if spec sheets to be believed.

And that is where i lose my trust a bit in testing process the max torque hits 63nm on test but they state 85nm and don't show a stall test graph or tes duration, theres also nearly 50% efficency increase from 6.5krpm down to 5krpm and im sure this is the lack of load on the motor at high rpm skewing the results completely unrealistic test

When i worked at hotpoint in my apprectice days destroying motors the guy i worked under never tested like that, stall torque test was allways first then 90% of stall load was apllied and motor was revved out to till efficency climbed and dropped to 70% of peak then rince and repeat all day long till the motor failed days weeks if necessary then present our findings, i was never part of design just abuse so i could be wrong easily enough.

 

[mxlemming]

I have heard the term 4th connection used even when theres 6 actual connections i get i can't tap the middle of a wye connection out the 3 are 120 degrees apart electrically.

Theres no extra windings within the motor, so are you saying the kia motor is fraud doesnt star delta switch on the fly ? Why the extra igbt cost in the controller if so

SIA motor has a max rpm of 7krpm and 12kw rated while the QS simular stranded version has a max rpm of 10krpm and 10kw rated they even hit max efficency at different parts of the rpm range.

Im not saying the sia motor wont hit 10krpm just not what its designed for if spec sheets to be believed.

And that is where i lose my trust a bit in testing process the max torque hits 63nm on test but they state 85nm and don't show a stall test graph or tes duration, theres also nearly 50% efficency increase from 6.5krpm down to 5krpm and im sure this is the lack of load on the motor at high rpm skewing the results completely unrealistic test

When i worked at hotpoint in my apprectice days destroying motors the guy i worked under never tested like that, stall torque test was allways first then 90% of stall load was apllied and motor was revved out to till efficency climbed and dropped to 70% of peak then rince and repeat all day long till the motor failed days weeks if necessary then present our findings, i was never part of design just abuse so i could be wrong easily enough.

You can only really test yourself. I never went above 7krpm. I wasn't aware of a similar size QS running to 10k.

Does kia say it's star Delta switching or is it just Munro saying that? The controller layout is weird for a star Delta switch. More likely to be 2 controllers running seperately IMO.

Star delta switching takes a lot of silicon that can be put to much better use by just putting it in the inverter itself. Many have died on this hill. Many refuse to acknowledge this.

US20240039448A1 - Electrified vehicle and method of controlling same - Google Patents

An electrified vehicle having a first inverter having a DC terminal and a plurality of legs respectively connected to one end of each of a plurality of coils of a motor, a second inverter connected to the DC terminal, and including a plurality of legs connected to the other ends of the plurality...

patents.google.com

See this for how it really works.

 

[Ianhill]

Apologies when searching for said motor i realised i miss read the spec sheet and its 10kw rated not 10krpm so false advertisement by me there.

I still stick by skin effect but can see your point its not going to be such a huge difference at the rpm they rated for just take a few watt lose hear and there etc no biggy te gains from extra conductor and better thermal coupling of said conductors make it a no brain winner.

When it comes to the star delta switch can't really say either way, it would be great if it functioned like stated but the back emf during the swap might spike and become a igbt bursting issue specially on timing so i can see your skepticism and would love to hear from kia lol or even munro cherp in lmao.

 

[Ianhill]

I watched these lucid presentations, just wow from the battery to the wonderbox to the motor truly a step beyond anything to date, leaders in the field no doubt, I'm sure they will implement some very clever tech in the years to come.

I think the battery has big potential with the tabless eve40pl cells, if that could be diy emulated the discharge capabilitys could be silly over 50kw from surron sized packs around 15kg is unmatched.

 

[mxlemming]

I watched these lucid presentations, just wow from the battery to the wonderbox to the motor truly a step beyond anything to date, leaders in the field no doubt, I'm sure they will implement some very clever tech in the years to come.

I think the battery has big potential with the tabless eve40pl cells, if that could be diy emulated the discharge capabilitys could be silly over 50kw from surron sized packs around 15kg is unmatched.

These lucid guys are good. Big respect for them. They know what they're talking about (Munro doesn't...) and they're true to their word that it's all scientifically and logically based.

I'd always had serious doubts about the Tesla rotor and carbon wrap, cynicism given the increase in air gap. Really pleased lucid have publicly cut one open, measured it and confirmed my cynicism is correct...

 

[Ianhill]

Munro is a good platform for getting an inside view but lucid has top level engineers with an extremely wise thinking leader makes them truly unstoppable in this field the battery pack has huge improvements and still room on the table for more a production quality tabless cells used in that type of configuration could be pushed much harder with less damage to cell life.

What would be great is if this could be implememted on a diy scale into smaller packs but i don't see a simple cold plate arrangement working only a fluid that can be temp regulated like lucid has done because a cold plate would stop the cells performance been to cold for too long etc, regulating said plate to keep a temp would be much more difficult than a liquid

 

[ganzey]

Munro is a good platform for getting an inside view but lucid has top level engineers with an extremely wise thinking leader makes them truly unstoppable in this field the battery pack has huge improvements and still room on the table for more a production quality tabless cells used in that type of configuration could be pushed much harder with less damage to cell life.

What would be great is if this could be implememted on a diy scale into smaller packs but i don't see a simple cold plate arrangement working only a fluid that can be temp regulated like lucid has done because a cold plate would stop the cells performance been to cold for too long etc, regulating said plate to keep a temp would be much more difficult than a liquid

Did you see the latest video they did with lucid? Some stuff repetitive from the tech talk videos, but some stuff a little more in depth

 

[Ianhill]

Id not seen it, good to see the tri motor setup been shown some really smart tech coming from them lucid are true doctors of engineering.