Spoke Gauge - Motor And Wheel Compatibility

[vwhammer]

I took my rims and hubs to the bike shop to have them laced up and got a call a little later from the shop expressing concern for the spoke hole diameter in the hubs vs the spoke gauge/diameter.

I have a Q128H and a Q100H and the spoke holes measure about 3.3mm and 3.5mm respectively.
This is big enough to fit a 10 gauge spoke through.
All the bike shop had was 14 gauge and they were afraid that it was going to pull the head through the holes in the hub.
This is understandable since the head on a 14 gauge spoke is only about 3.85mm

So I guess my question is now, what gauge spokes are people running with these motors.
Clearly I am not going to run 10 gauge spoke and from what I can gather even a 12 gauge spoke will require me to drill my rim so the nipple will fit.

not really interested in running washers or anything like that at the hubs because that seems a little hokey to me.

I would probably rather re-drill the rim to make the 12 gauge spokes work before I do too much else.

So anyone that is running either of these motors, what did you use? Are your holes in the hub as big as mine?

Will 13 gauge stuff work safely?

 

[bowlofsalad]

I question their measurements. Maybe your Q100h you have differs from the ones I have, but I just went and measured a few bare Q100h hub I have to triple check and I got 3mm on 2 of my digital calpiers. I say go to them and ask them to show you the measurement they observe. Maybe bring your own digital calpier and measure yourself. Make sure the batteries are good on digital calpiers, a few times I got bad measurements only to discover the cause was a weak cell.

But I'd use single butted 13/14 gauge spokes on the Q100h assuming the spoke hole size is what I think it is.

Part of the function of spokes is to stretch under tension, this is largely how the spokes remain true as you ride, it maintains pressure on the nipple preventing it from turning as the wheel is jostled and knocked at speed. A thicker spoke needs substantially more tension applied to it to stretch enough to maintain even pressure on the nipple. You cannot achieve enough tension to keep a very thick spoke stretched enough when using a bicycle rim, the bicycle rim would collapse under the tension a motorcycle rim would use.

If the shop is right and the spoke holes are that size I wish you luck in the redrill, but otherwise I'd probably suggest you seek out a new hub.

Where did you purchase your motors from?

 

[Drunkskunk]

What you need is 13/14g single butted spokes. Not every bike shop is going to have those, but a good one should be able to get them easy enough. JRH, a member here, has a shop, and can usually get the spokes you need. holmeshobbies.com If not, 14 gauge should be fine. On a properly laced wheel, the spoke head has almost no chance to pull through the hole. The forces on the spoke are pulling out along the spoke, not sideways on the head.

Forget 12g. That's too thick for a bicycle. Think of the spoke as a kind of torsional spring. too heavy of a spring is a bad thing. 14g is very heavy duty spoke for a bike. There is a guy here who maintains a fleet of pedicabs with 14g spokes.

Spoke head washers aren't hokey, but you don't need to use them if you don't want to. Spokes should be crossed, so that each pair are pushing themselves into the spoke holes. the spoke head will often have a small space where it doesn't contact the rest of the hole.

Spoke head size matters very little. It will even work if the spoke head is so small that it would fall out when not under tension. That's not ideal. if it ever did become lose, it could fall out and damage the wheel or the bike, but it doesn't matter when the spoke is properly tensioned.

 

[vwhammer]

I got both motors from BMS battery.

I also measured the holes on both motors myself with my own set of Mitutoyo digital calipers so the numbers are legit.

I think I am just going to try the 13/14g butted route and see if it works.

I mean whats the worst that could happen.
They fail catastrophically while I am bombing down one of my home town's many 15-20% grades at 35-40 mph?
I can live with that.
Taste death. Live life.

 

[motomech]

I have built four custom wheels based on Q100s, Alex DM24 rims and DT Swiss 14 Ga. with a 2-cross.
The difference is, I built them myself.
When you take Ebike stuff to a bicycle shop, they see something different and freak out.

 

[d8veh]

I've built loads of wheels with Q100 motors. I used to use 13g, but now I use 14g spokes - cheap ones from Ebay. I'm pretty sure that 10g spokes won't go through the holes. Don't go any thicker than 13g. 14g are best.

I've only built one Q128H wheel. I used 14g spokes.

 

[ridethelightning]

subscribe

 

[Punx0r]

The washers also help pull the spoke elbow up against the flange. Your choice whether you use them or not, the only consequence is likely to be a small risk of spokes breaking at the elbow, if the flange is too thin.

I'd go with the 13/14 single butted suggestion. If you redrill I'd go for 14ga.

 

[MadRhino]

Flange washer does the job. Ideally, a conic flange washer made from Alu Pop rivets. Once laced, punch the spoke head into the washer before finishing the wheel. Add oval rim washers (brass or SS), and you can lace the wheel pretty tight if you bought quality SS spokes. That is how I lace my own wheels and they are tough to ride the mountain aggressively.

 

[wesnewell]

The hubs are designed for 12G spokes. If you want to use thinner spokes, use washers at the hub. I've been using 12g spokes for years at speeds up to 61.4mph. I wouldn't use anything smaller. If you have to drill the rim, drill the holes at an angle to match the hub hole it goes to. Makes lacing and tensioning easier.

 

[vwhammer]

Took my parts to another bike shop today and he just looked at them and said yeah a 13 will work.
No washers. Nothing fancy. Just a plain old 13g spoke.
I brought up specs on the hole size and his opinion did not change.
They even had a bike there with a Q100 on the front and it actually only had 14g spokes on it.
We didn't measure the holes on that one but they also looked pretty big.

I am going to do the spoke calculations tonight and get some ordered.
Probably going to get the 13/14g single butted spokes just for the fun of it.

Don't suppose anyone has the measurements on either of these hubs so I don't have to spend the time to work up a way to measure them accurately for the spoke calculators?

I have most measurements other than the hub center to flange center stuff but after tinkering with some of the calculators it does not appear that changing that number a bunch really changes the spoke length all that much.

For example on this site------> http://www.bikeschool.com/tools/spoke-length-calculator
If I change the "hub center to flange center" from 1 to 20 the spoke length only changes by .8mm

There is easily enough depth on my double walled rims to accommodate a couple mm or spoke sticking out of the tip of the nipple.

I think I might just go with the longer of the two calculations.

 

[Punx0r]

The spoke calculator at ebikes.ca might have the measurement you need for the motor

 

[motomech]

Took my parts to another bike shop today and he just looked at them and said yeah a 13 will work.
No washers. Nothing fancy. Just a plain old 13g spoke.
I brought up specs on the hole size and his opinion did not change.
They even had a bike there with a Q100 on the front and it actually only had 14g spokes on it.
We didn't measure the holes on that one but they also looked pretty big.

I am going to do the spoke calculations tonight and get some ordered.
Probably going to get the 13/14g single butted spokes just for the fun of it.

Don't suppose anyone has the measurements on either of these hubs so I don't have to spend the time to work up a way to measure them accurately for the spoke calculators?

I have most measurements other than the hub center to flange center stuff but after tinkering with some of the calculators it does not appear that changing that number a bunch really changes the spoke length all that much.

For example on this site------> http://www.bikeschool.com/tools/spoke-length-calculator
If I change the "hub center to flange center" from 1 to 20 the spoke length only changes by .8mm

There is easily enough depth on my double walled rims to accommodate a couple mm or spoke sticking out of the tip of the nipple.

I think I might just go with the longer of the two calculations.

Why didn't you measure the spoke lenght of the Q100 spokes while you were in the shop?
Or tell us what rims you will be using, someone here probably has already done it.
Green Bike Kit lists the lenght of spokes for the Q100 and Q128 when used with their rims.
My Alex double walls needed spokes approx. 4 m/m longer.

 

[vwhammer]

It was a 26" wheel set up and I am using a 29" wheel, a Velocity Blunt to be exact.

Anyway I think I have the spoke length sorted so I will likely order them today.

 

[LewTwo]

... There is easily enough depth on my double walled rims to accommodate a couple mm or spoke sticking out of the tip of the nipple. ...

Yes, but the spokes are not likely to not have that much extra thread length (1mm max).

 

[vwhammer]

Just wanted to update this thread now that I have decided on a path forward.

I the fiddled with the calculations for the spoke lengths on ebikes.ca's site and decided on a length.

I went with a 13/14 gauge single butted spoke and laced them myself.

I went with a 1 cross on the back and a 2 cross on the front.

They went together with little issue and i don't think there is any chance they are going to pull through the hub or anything like that.

I then took them to the local bike shop to have them trued up and dished.

So far I have not heard about any issues or mistakes yet and i hope to pick them up tomorrow.

 

[Punx0r]

:thumbup: