Jonathan1981
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@ admin, could we get a MOD/DEV specific Thread started for the surron? I think this thread is probably best left for general discussion.
Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike
- Thread starter Allex
- Start date
Jonathan1981 said:
Anybody can start a new topic. I would love a separate place for Sur-ron technical information. I'm reverse engineering parts of it already.
Jonathan1981
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fechter said:
Oh ok, I'll initiate it then.......
and we're off, not really sure if that's the right way to do it, but anyway.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=96292
Allex
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Bike in Orange
macribs
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3DTOPO said:Jonathan1981 said:
OMG! Dude, I would kill for a snow setup like that for my Sur-Ron. I think that would pretty much be the ultimate snow machine!!!
What a fun project it would be to build one too. I won't have nearly enough time before the snow flies though.
Did you build it, or who built it? If you built it, can you make me one for my Sur-Ron?!?!
Using a bike like a snowmobile is not an easy task. Take a look at the snow bike kits available. Those are expensive and for a good reason. To really get the power needed to work in powder I think you will need a whole different drive setup. Might need dual motor and dual ASI 8000 or even more power. Remember when they put these kits on 450's dirt bikes they use all the power all the time, in addition to the gearbox. And the more you tune up the motor, the better the kits work. Some sort of blower or even nitro bursts works wonders on 450's mx bikes.
You would drain your battery within minutes because you need max power almost all the time, totally different from a bike on a trail.
If you like to explore winter fun on a bike, go for mx and a snow bike kit. I don't think batteries are yet up for the taks yet.
Just by looking at the kit in the pic, it seems to be, well home brew to put it nice. I wouldn't even consider such a kit. No shocks? And the width of that kit? Will it even be able to stay on top of the snow or just dig in deep and get stuck? Anyway put such a kit on a sur ron and I think you wasted your money. Battery is too small for the task, motor is no way near powerful enough and the kit itself is well, under engineered.
3DTOPO
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macribs said:3DTOPO said:Jonathan1981 said:
OMG! Dude, I would kill for a snow setup like that for my Sur-Ron. I think that would pretty much be the ultimate snow machine!!!
What a fun project it would be to build one too. I won't have nearly enough time before the snow flies though.
Did you build it, or who built it? If you built it, can you make me one for my Sur-Ron?!?!
Using a bike like a snowmobile is not an easy task. Take a look at the snow bike kits available. Those are expensive and for a good reason. To really get the power needed to work in powder I think you will need a whole different drive setup. Might need dual motor and dual ASI 8000 or even more power. Remember when they put these kits on 450's dirt bikes they use all the power all the time, in addition to the gearbox. And the more you tune up the motor, the better the kits work. Some sort of blower or even nitro bursts works wonders on 450's mx bikes.
Yeah, I spent a lot of time yesterday looking at pretty much all the solutions on the market.
All of the Timbersleds look amazing, but they need a bigger more powerful platform. I can tell just by the weight.
Their entry model weights 120 pounds for the rear https://www.timbersled.com/en-us/snow-bikes/st-120-raw/
They have one for what they call 110cc bikes that weighs 57 pounds https://www.timbersled.com/en-us/snow-bikes/st-93-ripper/
It wouldn't add 57 pounds either since it replaces the existing swing arm, tire and brake. All the videos I can find on it show like a 5 year kid riding it - so kind of doubt it would be a perfect fit for the Sur Ron.
macribs said:
I ride a fat bike practically every winter day, and while it is more work than my normal bike (it doesn't help my Fat Bike weighs like 15 pounds more than my regular bike), I think I will be able to ride my Sur Ron under similar conditions. I am fine with shorter range than max. Hell, even 1/4 range would be enough to have a lot of fun on each day - that's like 8 miles or so based on the range I have now. Being cold out won't help range either, but I am going to keep the battery inside, so it will go out at a good temp and I reckon take a while for the whole battery back to chill.
macribs said:
Going full mx and snow bike kit is well beyond my budget and lets say outside my comfort zone. No, a silent ride my fat bike with my Siberian Husky is much preferred over the full-blown Rock Star approach (don't get me wrong - it does look super fun).
macribs said:
I think it appears to be using the same suspension of the motor bike? I understand additional track suspension is very nice, but I am just looking for something to give me better traction in the snow than a tire could possibly give me. Because I plan to do some riding in snow no matter what!
I figure I should be able to ride under almost as deep powder as I can with my fat bike which is as a bare minimum good enough for me. If I could get a bit better than that would be awesome! One of the limiting ride-ability factors for me is having sufficient traction on ice (that's far more important than riding in 2+ feet of powder for my conditions). Once the base roads ice up, that pretty much limits me to my Fat Bike. So I am thinking with my Sur-Ron as is, once the roads ice up it will be done for the season - unless I do something!!!
I think I am going to either build a track (probably require a custom swing arm), or just build a custom swing arm for 5" fat snow tires. Would also need a new fat fork. Man, 5" fatties on a Sur Ron would HAVE to be a fun ride - hell - even year round! Either solution will probably require a fatter swing arm, and thinking that might be a nice product to offer at some point.
It would be pretty straightforward for me to build something like this (I have a CNC machine, 3D printers, a lathe and full foundry) and the exact configuration I thinking of building (love how the wheel goes a little below the ski so I can putt to where they stop plowing!):
Unfortunately, that picture is from like 2003 and they are no longer in business, but it was a pretty reasonable $900 (in 2003 dollars). I wish I knew exactly what the specs for the rubber tread track are - looks about perfect. I don't know what sort of range I would get with it, but I am sure it would give me a whole lot more traction in the winter (even early Spring too) than my M403 tires ever could. Which means I can have much more fun on it than I could in the winter without it.
If I make a fatter swing arm, I think I might have to use a pulley system to transfer power further out than the chain is now. Or does anyone know how to get the head sprocket out further?
In any event, doesn't 5" fatties on the Sur Ron sound fun?! I think the first step either way is to build a fatter swing arm, and figure out how to get the chain sprocket out another inch or two. So, I guess I will start with fat tires. What would be best, 26" fat tires front and rear?
Marksteamnz
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Jonathan1981 said:
I have no desire to follow multiple threads. This thread sits in its own tab on my machine and I refresh it each day. Nice and simple.
Berd
100 µW
Sur Ron Lite Bee arrived today!
Fed Ex dropped it off at around 3PM.
The battery was at 75% and I put it on the charger while I put the bike together.
Before even riding it I changed out the bars for some 3" rise protapers.
Everything went together easily and intuitively - other than the front axle.
The lock nut was super tight and ultimately it took a little persuasion with my small Dewalt battery powered impact driver.
In the online support FAQ Luna talks about how you have to be careful about stripping the axle so I was a bit nervous about "leaning on it"
I used Luna's chat support window and Tony quickly walked me through it including sending me a link to an assembly video.
Thanks for the great support Tony!
I really just needed some confirmation that I was heading in the right direction.
(clockwise to loosen the lock nut then anti-clockwise to loosen the axle)
I had to "rock it" back and forth a couple of times with the Dewalt and then it broke loose and all was normal.
I added anti-seize on the axle and on the lock nut before reassembly - just in case.
I was able to get in about 20 miles of back and forth on some of the local roads/trails as a shakedown ride before dinner.
I climbed up some pretty good hills (lots of them around here) and took the battery from full down to about 25%.
Loads of fun and looking forward to another ride tomorrow.
Pictures coming soon.
Fed Ex dropped it off at around 3PM.
The battery was at 75% and I put it on the charger while I put the bike together.
Before even riding it I changed out the bars for some 3" rise protapers.
Everything went together easily and intuitively - other than the front axle.
The lock nut was super tight and ultimately it took a little persuasion with my small Dewalt battery powered impact driver.
In the online support FAQ Luna talks about how you have to be careful about stripping the axle so I was a bit nervous about "leaning on it"
I used Luna's chat support window and Tony quickly walked me through it including sending me a link to an assembly video.
Thanks for the great support Tony!
I really just needed some confirmation that I was heading in the right direction.
(clockwise to loosen the lock nut then anti-clockwise to loosen the axle)
I had to "rock it" back and forth a couple of times with the Dewalt and then it broke loose and all was normal.
I added anti-seize on the axle and on the lock nut before reassembly - just in case.
I was able to get in about 20 miles of back and forth on some of the local roads/trails as a shakedown ride before dinner.
I climbed up some pretty good hills (lots of them around here) and took the battery from full down to about 25%.
Loads of fun and looking forward to another ride tomorrow.
Pictures coming soon.
Jonathan1981
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macribs said:3DTOPO said:Jonathan1981 said:
OMG! Dude, I would kill for a snow setup like that for my Sur-Ron. I think that would pretty much be the ultimate snow machine!!!
What a fun project it would be to build one too. I won't have nearly enough time before the snow flies though.
Did you build it, or who built it? If you built it, can you make me one for my Sur-Ron?!?!
Using a bike like a snowmobile is not an easy task. Take a look at the snow bike kits available. Those are expensive and for a good reason. To really get the power needed to work in powder I think you will need a whole different drive setup. Might need dual motor and dual ASI 8000 or even more power. Remember when they put these kits on 450's dirt bikes they use all the power all the time, in addition to the gearbox. And the more you tune up the motor, the better the kits work. Some sort of blower or even nitro bursts works wonders on 450's mx bikes.
You would drain your battery within minutes because you need max power almost all the time, totally different from a bike on a trail.
If you like to explore winter fun on a bike, go for mx and a snow bike kit. I don't think batteries are yet up for the taks yet.
Just by looking at the kit in the pic, it seems to be, well home brew to put it nice. I wouldn't even consider such a kit. No shocks? And the width of that kit? Will it even be able to stay on top of the snow or just dig in deep and get stuck? Anyway put such a kit on a sur ron and I think you wasted your money. Battery is too small for the task, motor is no way near powerful enough and the kit itself is well, under engineered.
Just for clarification, this is not a "kit" that I sell. It's just a fun, one off prototype. That's it, that's all. Works great too in deep snow, anything 2+ feet well it's not enough so unfortunately no boon docking. You need TONSSSSS of power for that. Even this requires a descent amount of power, I have the 160cc pinned most of the time to get momentum going in the deeper stuff...
"under engineered"? lol
I should show you all the pictures of how much thought went into it. And close ups, there's a system to adjust the track tension. You mentioned no suspension, it works with the bikes rear suspension AND the track itself does have suspension to control the track pitch, I had to develop a custom pull shock. That's what that aluminum thing is on the side of the track. That actually broke so I designed an upgraded version out of 1/8" steel tube with a spring inside. It's CRAZY strong but heavy...
I suggest you guys give up on the snow conversion kit right now, just not going to happen with electric power atm. There's video's of people ripping just with wheels and studs, sometimes that's all you need. But I think you could get away with a fat tire conversion that would do hard packed groomed trails and light snow really well tho.
Jonathan1981
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Berd said:
Welcome to the club buddy!
macribs
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3DTOPO said:
Suspension is not just nice, it is mandatory. Go to a snowmobile dealer and see if you can find an early 80 vintage snowmobile. Take it for a spin and then compare to modern day snowmobile. Ain't no fun being beaten to death without suspension. Also the added mass of the kit requires suspension way past the original bicycle shock on the sur ron.
Before you sink your hard earned cash into a no return pit hold back a little and do some test riding of snowbikes. On hard surfaces they suck! No fun at all. Unusable on streets, even if street is covered in snow and ice. You need deep snow for the track to dig into to be able to lean during cornering, and after all, riding a snowbike like it is a regular dirtbike is what snowbikes are about. And when you do ride in deep snow I can ensure you we are not even talking 1/4 of sur ron run time. You said 8 miles would be great. I say maybe you if you are lucky will manage 2 miles. You have to understand how these kits works. There are so much losses in the kit themselves and also in the snow, every yard ridden in the snow is like going full throttle up a the steepest hill your sur ron can climb, while using both front and rear brake.
You can't in any way compare a snowbike to a fat bike. A fat bike has so much less resistance. And the same for losses. When you add the track you are adding rotating mass, mass that are battling the snow.
Building a fat bike version I can understand and that makes so much sense. Then you can have your winter fun without draining the battery within minutes. Thumbs up for a fat bike sur ron.
In the early days of snowbikes there where a lot of various attempts to make snowbikes in the back yard. Bikes like this does not work. Track is too short, not aggressive enough and that front ski? Snowbikes are tons of fun but still so expensive you can get a couple of decent snowmobiles for the price of a kit. And then you soon realize you will need more power. Turbo? A blower? Nitro? Whatever you choose the money vanishes quickly.
Spend your time and equipment making something that will work well for you and your needs rather then getting all hooked on the idea of an electric snowbike. When that day comes that we do see an electric snowbike I am sure the battery will be several times bigger then the sur ron, it will have 2 or 3 times the power of a sur ron and the fun will likely run out to fast due to battery depletion.
Jonathan1981
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macribs said:3DTOPO said:
Suspension is not just nice, it is mandatory. Go to a snowmobile dealer and see if you can find an early 80 vintage snowmobile. Take it for a spin and then compare to modern day snowmobile. Ain't no fun being beaten to death without suspension. Also the added mass of the kit requires suspension way past the original bicycle shock on the sur ron.
Before you sink your hard earned cash into a no return pit hold back a little and do some test riding of snowbikes. On hard surfaces they suck! No fun at all. Unusable on streets, even if street is covered in snow and ice. You need deep snow for the track to dig into to be able to lean during cornering, and after all, riding a snowbike like it is a regular dirtbike is what snowbikes are about. And when you do ride in deep snow I can ensure you we are not even talking 1/4 of sur ron run time. You said 8 miles would be great. I say maybe you if you are lucky will manage 2 miles. You have to understand how these kits works. There are so much losses in the kit themselves and also in the snow, every yard ridden in the snow is like going full throttle up a the steepest hill your sur ron can climb, while using both front and rear brake.
You can't in any way compare a snowbike to a fat bike. A fat bike has so much less resistance. And the same for losses. When you add the track you are adding rotating mass, mass that are battling the snow.
Building a fat bike version I can understand and that makes so much sense. Then you can have your winter fun without draining the battery within minutes. Thumbs up for a fat bike sur ron.
In the early days of snowbikes there where a lot of various attempts to make snowbikes in the back yard. Bikes like this does not work. Track is too short, not aggressive enough and that front ski? Snowbikes are tons of fun but still so expensive you can get a couple of decent snowmobiles for the price of a kit. And then you soon realize you will need more power. Turbo? A blower? Nitro? Whatever you choose the money vanishes quickly.
Spend your time and equipment making something that will work well for you and your needs rather then getting all hooked on the idea of an electric snowbike. When that day comes that we do see an electric snowbike I am sure the battery will be several times bigger then the sur ron, it will have 2 or 3 times the power of a sur ron and the fun will likely run out to fast due to battery depletion.
Yep. Couldn't agree more.... snow track for Surron is lost cause....for all the reasons listed above...Don't waste your time and money.
I think a nice 4" fat tire with studs is the way to go, front and back....that should get you going in 75% of the snowy terrain out there and should hold descent range.
macribs
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Jonathan1981 said:
Didn't mean no talk it down, just that the lack of suspension is what caught my eye. So that is why I used the term under engineered.
Under engineered as in lacking in suspension department. How well the kit itself is designed and what materials you used I have no idea of. But I do know a snowbike without additional suspension is no fun at all. I've ridden the first kits when they came, I've ridden home brew kits and also modern day kits and additional suspension in the kit is needed. The kit works much the same as a snowmobile, and there is a reason they got expensive suspension. The suspension also adds in giving you the correct pitch for the track so that the track will climb up and out of the powder rather then just dig into it and get you stuck. Suspension also helps getting most of the track "in grip" to attack the snow even in bumps and jumps. And suspension keeps you internal parts stay where they belong even when things get sketchy at high speed. Your back and neck also are firm fans of suspension.
Btw to design a proper "under carage" the rails and linkage for rear suspension is an art. Strong used to be more steel everywhere for racing or users that abused their machines. Then someone started to remove weight and designing things stronger but lighter. That changed things around. The big brand names have spend decades to refine their design, god knows how many millions spend on R&D to make em work better. The past 20 or so years have moved quickly and we have seen improvements almost every year. T motion, carbon fiber rails, performance parts from third parties made in alu or even titanium. But still the overall basic design principle is today much like we saw on the earl 80 sports machines. Of course way better, much lighter, stronger and with all kinds of angles changed, placements optimized, track width and length changed depending on usage, and not to forget a lot have happen with the track itself. Both in paddle height and aggressive threads and just as important the loss of weight. Performance tracks are so light we couldn't even dream of it 20 years ago.
I totally agree, electric snowbikes are nothing we will see any day soon. Probably not before we get a battery break trough like solid state or some other new technology.
Jonathan1981
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This one is for the newbs. When you get the bike, make sure to adjust the shock spring tension. Mine came fully unwound. I was wondering why I kept bottoming out all the time lol... I screwed it down to about .75" from top of threads. I'm riding with re-bound set to middle and compression set to full... such an easy, simple fix that makes SOOOO much difference obviously. Bike is so fun now, jumps and soaks the hits up MUCH better.
I found removing the shock to be a little tricky so I put together a guide to help save some time. This is probably not the only way to do it but it worked well for me.
I found removing the shock to be a little tricky so I put together a guide to help save some time. This is probably not the only way to do it but it worked well for me.
Attachments
Jonathan, I know with my Fox shocks they recommend only a few turns max on that adjustment. They actually warn that if you go to much you can cause damage. Just a heads up. Obviously if its loose you should tighten it, but just make sure there is no limits on how tight you can make it.
I also believe that adjustment is to set the sag on the bike, and if its not setting proper sag you need another spring.
I also believe that adjustment is to set the sag on the bike, and if its not setting proper sag you need another spring.
dirkdiggler
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Comparing an mx snowbike to the sur-ron is absurd. They weigh about half as much. I think it depends on how deep the snow is. An electric snowbike will happen sooner than later. To a point you get the weight and torque advantage with electrics. I bet the Alta motor bike would manage as it currently stands.
If you really want to try, I'd test the track kit for mtb bikes that Luna sells.
https://lunacycle.com/k-trak-tank-tracks-conversion-kit-luna-new-and-improved-version/
Maybe it's junk, I don't know. I ride an electric fattie in winter, but I have researched using a front ski with it.
[youtube]ZAsNvzrv-6M[/youtube]
[youtube]zS2r0j-SDqE[/youtube]
[youtube]pYT09YZG38A[/youtube]
If you really want to try, I'd test the track kit for mtb bikes that Luna sells.
https://lunacycle.com/k-trak-tank-tracks-conversion-kit-luna-new-and-improved-version/
Maybe it's junk, I don't know. I ride an electric fattie in winter, but I have researched using a front ski with it.
[youtube]ZAsNvzrv-6M[/youtube]
[youtube]zS2r0j-SDqE[/youtube]
[youtube]pYT09YZG38A[/youtube]
Rix
100 TW
Offroader said:
As long as the spring isn't coil binding, preload coil compression can be turned down without drama. I am betting thats why Fox warned you. That said, increasing preload on the spring isn't as good as respringing. But I have found that even at 245# with proper preload set up, the stock shock is adequate.
Jonathan1981
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Rix said:
Yeah, so much info going around, it's all blur...what model of shock is this again? we need to find a guide/manual for getting it dialed in for weight, setting sag etc. I might have cranked her a little too much but so far I'm loving it, a whole new experience really. I can
actually get some air without breaking my knees lol... I probably have about .5-1" of sag on the bike whereas before it was a slosh fest just sitting on it. I'm going to assume that @ 150lbs, I'm around average weight so the stock spring #450, is appropriately speced.
3DTOPO
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dirkdiggler said:
Exactly - really comes down to how deep it can handle. I am sure we can all agree that the Sun Ron out of the box can tear it up with some snow on the ground - its really just a question of how much. (there is even a youtube video of someone tearing it up in the city coated in snow).
I also think we could all agree that it would do far better in deeper snow if there were 5" fat tires on the bike. Can we agree that the Sur-Ron would be more fun in the snow running with fatties?
If so, well, even more traction will probably let it handle even deeper snow than fat tires could. Even a small track could easily give it 25-50 times the surface area of fat tires. And if it was already letting me have fun with the 5" fat tires, 25-50 times the surface area sure shouldn't hurt!
dirkdiggler said:If you really want to try, I'd test the track kit for mtb bikes that Luna sells.
https://lunacycle.com/k-trak-tank-tracks-conversion-kit-luna-new-and-improved-version/
Maybe it's junk, I don't know. I ride an electric fattie in winter, but I have researched using a front ski with it.
[youtube]pYT09YZG38A[/youtube]
Thats pretty much the identical design of the one I posted that I plan to build and had come across it on Alibaba. But much much flimsier. I just don't think it would last more than a day on the Sur Ron - look at that third video @0:33 - right near the end you can see it wobbling all over the place and that's just from likely a few hundred watts. Here is a link to @0:33: https://youtu.be/pYT09YZG38A?t=34
This is what I plan to build - practically the same layout as the one you posted - just much more stout:
macribs
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dirkdiggler said:Comparing an mx snowbike to the sur-ron is absurd. They weigh about half as much. I think it depends on how deep the snow is. An electric snowbike will happen sooner than later. To a point you get the weight and torque advantage with electrics. I bet the Alta motor bike would manage as it currently stands.
If you really want to try, I'd test the track kit for mtb bikes that Luna sells.
That is not a snowbike and will not ride like one. That will ride like mtb with a tiny track.
You can't just put a track on things and believe it will become a snowbike. The track length and width just won't work in the powder and it won't allow for the snowbike feel of riding. Don't go chasing the the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, if you like a fun winter ride turn your sur ron into a fatbike and you will get rewarded every time you ride.
3DTOPO
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macribs said:dirkdiggler said:Comparing an mx snowbike to the sur-ron is absurd. They weigh about half as much. I think it depends on how deep the snow is. An electric snowbike will happen sooner than later. To a point you get the weight and torque advantage with electrics. I bet the Alta motor bike would manage as it currently stands.
If you really want to try, I'd test the track kit for mtb bikes that Luna sells.
That is not a snowbike and will not ride like one. That will ride like mtb with a tiny track.
Which sounds completely fine and what I would suspect. I suspect it would ride just like the motor bike that is the Sur-Ron but get way better traction over snow, slush, mud, sand, etc. But again - that one shown is way too flimsy for the Sur Ron. The one I posted there is a video of a guy jumping it on a snow covered track - without a doubt is getting much better traction on the snow than a tire ever would.
macribs said:
I think we have two completely different goals in mind. It's all about expectations. I don't expect the Firefly to be a 450cc Timbersled-type snow bike killer. Just a Sur-Ron with drastically increased traction and surface area. With my fat bike, I am able to ride all over the place in the winter if I stick to the groomed runs or follow in snowmobile tracks - even after many feet of snow have fallen. My 4" fat tires even do great in up to 8-12" of powder. Thats all I want to be able to do (as a minimum goal) for the snow on my Sur-Ron.
I realize it will not be some amazing Red Bull adrenaline pumping snow-bike that can leap over mountains in several feet of powder. I just want to be able to go where I am able to go on my Fat Tire bike in the winter on the Sur-Ron. Additional traction from increased surface area of a track seems like it would be a huge bonus - I don't see how it wouldn't be. A track drive would probably easily let me ride in powder twice the depth as it could with fat tires - which would be pretty incredible even with half the range.
Aebrennan
100 W
Today we received our shipment of X version bikes.
I can confirm that the bike comes factory fitted with sine wave controller, x version graphics, number board and rear plate, grey grips, new bars, different colour calipers, different brake pads, gold o’ring chain and DNM suspension.
The bike has the same 48T rear sprocket as standard and the increase in seat size is not obvious.
I can confirm that the bike comes factory fitted with sine wave controller, x version graphics, number board and rear plate, grey grips, new bars, different colour calipers, different brake pads, gold o’ring chain and DNM suspension.
The bike has the same 48T rear sprocket as standard and the increase in seat size is not obvious.
skyungjae
10 kW
Aebrennan said:
Did you guys get any pedal kits too?
Alex Imreh
100 W
What do you use to measure accelerations, for example time to get from 0 to 50km/h? https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.speedlogicapp.speedlogiclite
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