Talk me off the ledge, Thinking of returning to ICE!

[stiffi]

Hello Everybody,

I need some help. I've been tinkering with electric vehicles for several years. As early as 2000, I had a push electric scooter. During that same time, I bought a Currie Electric bike. I quickly sold it, due to the really low quality bike frame that came with it (I did not know then, I could move the motor to a new bike). I rode my kick scooter until it was stolen from me, one day on the train! After researching laws, and finding them way too stringent for kick scooters, I went back to looking for either a scooter that was legal (in Maryland) or a bike. I settled on en Ego 2 scooter. This served me quite well, except for the tiny 20 inch tires. I kept obliterating them on my mostly urban ride. I signifcantly upgraded to a Tidalforce M750. This was a bike! The cost was considerable, but the performance matched. I had the bug! After about 2 years, the batteries started to give me trouble. I found many resources on the web to help, but the electronics were over my head. I reluctantly sold the Tidalforce and bought a cheaper Go-Hub kit with SLA batteries. I've been riding that for about 3 years. I killed the SLAs after storing them in temperatures too cold over the winter ( I think).

That's when I found Endless-Sphere. Through much help here, I was able to build a new pack with Bosch Fatpacks, albeit at a slower 36 volts. That pack has served me pretty well, but I'm kind of missing the speed of my 48 volts, so I'm thinking about upgrading to 48 volts Lifepo4.

And that brings me to my problem. I have spent $5000 over the past 10 years on equipment to ride "green" with electric transportation. I've sold second hand, most of that equipment and recouped maybe 1/2 of my investment. I'm set to make another big purchase, and I'm wondering if it is worth it?

I can't help but think about an old 250 CC Kawasaki Motorcyle I had in college. The thing gave me years of trouble free service and was fun to drive. I'm thinking about scrapping this Electric Power assist idea entirely, for a cheaper and easier ICE scooter or motorcycle. I've never been the most mechanically inclined. I've fudged my way through some repairs, but the community is not mature enough yet, to suppport local repairs. A simple Honda engine can be serviced at literally hundreds of shops in my town.

So, the question is, do I continue to push the envelope in electric assist? I am an environmentalist, at heart, and that was my motivation, at the start. I just wonder if a new 4 stroke ICE would be "good enough" at saving the environment through fuel economy alone.

I appreciate your reading and thoughts.

Thanks.

 

[DerekG]

I'm a fairly new member on here with only 800 miles on my electric bike, however, I have learned a lot throughout the past few months so I will try to answer your question.

I believe the "problem" if you want to call it that in regards to lack of support, etc, is that "we" are still leading the pack. This community is like the sheep that strays from the flock to forage for water by itself. The sheep may get there first but it has to overcome a lot on its journey alone. This is why I believe so many on here are engineers or electric / mechanic enthusiasts. Just tonight I damaged a few Hall sensor wires when a ziptie broke loose on my bike. No ones fault but no one was there to help me fix it, I had to be the one to step up. I'm working on setting up a Table in the HUB of my campus to raise awareness about electric vehicles. Once again no one is there to help me.

Thus, in a sense I believe by going out and striving to be different than those who drive SUV's, whatever to work, we are leaders. We are leading a movement which may or may not take off at anytime. As any leader will tell you, it is all about making sacrifices. If you want the tried and true way, just go for the ICE, it Will be easier to upkeep and service. Sure an electric vehicle may be cleaner but by accepting that fact you are also accepting the burden which comes with it. We the community here can help you, however, it is ultimately your choice.

I would go for the electric assist, however that is just me as I can afford the time and patience it takes to put the pieces back together. There is hardly any piece which can break which I can't fix with a soldering station, spare wire, or a welder. However, for someone who can't afford to not be without the ride I would go for something which WIll Not be as much of a burden to service.

-Derek G.

 

[mabman]

If your figures are correct you are saying that you have spent $2500 over 10 years correct? That is only $250/yr and not a bad investment overall I would say. If you are happy enough with the range that an e bike allows then I would by all means stick with it.

You are right in that there are many more options available with ICE and places to get them serviced and arguably less servicing (or tinkering) necessary. The most fuel efficient motorcycles get around 75 mpg and are in the 250cc and under class. These bikes will travel at highway speeds but require licensing, registration, insurance and an operators license which adds up. There are ICE engine kits to put on bicycles but for the most part they are worthless and you are back to tinkering again, this time with gas in your apartment

There are a couple of concept motorcycles that I have seen that blur the lines between motorcycle and bicycle a bit. Small 100cc or so engines and suspension systems not unlike those found on a bicycle. I really think that if a company like Honda put their mind to it they could come up with some really cool designs along those lines. Not necessarily for use off road either but more street oriented than anything. Working the overall design so the same platform could be used with an electric motor also would be very cool. And even cooler if it came with pedals.

As far as the scooter type e and ICE's go I don't like them due to their smaller wheel size. YMMV.

 

[stiffi]

Thanks for the replies.

The thing that is swaying me, is I live in Maryland, and in this state, a scooter Under 50cc in size, requires NO licensing, insurance, or even helmets. So, a gas powered scooter becomes a turn key proposition, in switching from electric assist. Roughly the same top speed, acceleration, and legal status, but with far less maintenance required.

The jury is still out. Part of me likes being on the bleeding edge, just not my patience!

 

[AussieJester]

I would go for the 250cc in a heart beat, half your luck being able to ride still i can't ;-(
the new 4 strokes are very clean (if your environmentally conscious which you appear to be?)
you get oober range excellent speed and they are probably a darn site safer than a cheap push bike
piled with batteries, big motor and cable pull brakes...which ever you decide be sure to buy a good quality
helmet and protective clothing. Maybe still keep the e-bike for shorter trips to local shops and the like? the Motorciiicyle
for longer trips, i know of a few on moterbikes.com with 49cc motored bicycles that
have scooters and small motorcycles they chose between dependent on the journey they are undertaking.

BEst of luck with your decision

KiM

 

[swbluto]

If your figures are correct you are saying that you have spent $2500 over 10 years correct? That is only $250/yr and not a bad investment overall I would say. If you are happy enough with the range that an e bike allows then I would by all means stick with it.

Depends on your needs and such. If you need high speed, high distance travel, then for god sakes man, go with ICE. Otherwise, just pick up a reliable kit and go with it. Some of the kits nowadays have improved much more than the kits that existed a year or two ago.

By the way, $250 per year doesn't sound bad. With modern technology, I'm sure you can cut that figure down even further.

As far as CO2 emissions, at least a scooter/motorcycle is better than a car. As far as noxious emissions that affect human health, that's definitely not better even for a four stroke (Due to the lacking catalytic converter).

 

[stiffi]

The $250 over a ten year period is correct. The problem is I have nothing to show for it, except one failed experiment after another.

You say get a reliable kit. What would be your recommendation? I'm interested in a front hub kit, due to ease of use and adaptability to bike frames. I'm using a Gohub which is a Crystalyte 408. That part has been pretty reliable. Could be I've finally hit a plateau. I only worry because the shelf life of most of my projects so far, has been about 18 months. From what I read, that sounds about on par with most people's experiences.

Everyone on this board is constantly tinkering. Is that just the "itch" people get? Are there people out there that travel 3-5 years on an ebike setup without doing any sort of major repairs or changes?

 

[dogman dan]

I wouldn't call having sla's or any chemistry battery eventually wear out a failed experiment. Or 250 a year too much money. I definitely spend more than that, considering 1000 a year my budget for more fun experiments. Some of us consider the experiments and failures fun, so the money is entertainment budget.

I would just get a good battery for the go hub first, and try the ebike with a real battery. Mabye a new controller, 48v 20 amp with a 48v 15 ah ping or equivilant. You'll have good speed, less weight and twice the range. Chances are you'll be happy with that setp compared to any sla powered EV you've owned.

Now on to the ICE device. Don't get a moped. Often two stroke, they REALLY pollute. The 4 strokes, like a 250 honda will not pollute more than a 50cc and perform much better. I don't ride my roketta all that much, but If I'm going to be late to work riding the ebike, I can hop on it and get there without using as much gas as my car.

I just ride what is appropriate for the day. Ebike if I don't need to carry too much. Roketta can carry as much but is faster, better if the trip is more than the range of the Ebike. Car if large stuff must be delivered to work, or picked up on the way home. The one ton truck is only driven to carry one ton.

Why would you want to be limited to just an ebike, or just a motorcycle? Other than severely limited funds?

 

[mabman]

Why would you want to be limited to just an ebike, or just a motorcycle? Other than severely limited funds?

How about severely limited space? :wink:

 

[John in CR]

Everyone on this board is constantly tinkering...

Not everyone. I wish I put in tinkering time, because my project list is long.

...but with far less maintenance required.

Far less maintenance??? 13 months and easily over 5k miles, and my only maintenance item has been fiddling with the brakes. Now that I switched to hydraulic brakes, it's just a matter of changing the brake pads now. Electrics should have near absolute dependability, and far greater than any ICE.

 

[vanilla ice]

If a 50cc could fly under the reg/lic radar in my state, I'd get one in a heartbeat.. no brainer. Like AJ says the newer catalyzed four stroke 50's are pretty darned clean. And the mileage sure beats an SUV. Even the hybrid ones.

Or get the 250cc if you need the versatility. Nothing ungreen about a 250cc. Or any light weight vehicle IMO.

 

[FeralDog]

Have much money to spend (whats your budget)?
What do you want to do, what do you expect it to do (street, trail, commute, fun,.... smoke, noise, cost , hassle, wrench work, legal or .....)?
New or Used?

 

[number1cruncher]

I bought a 50cc Honda Metro scooter in June 2002. It has been a great ride. However, I did buy new plugs, a couple tires, a new battery, a new cvt belt, new rollers and of course oil and coolant(its a 4stroke liquid cooled engine.) These things weren't "cheap", especially the battery. Right now it needs a new front tire and the brakes stick a little. Its going on Craigslist in April so I can fund my e-tadpole. My point is that either way you are eventually going to need maintenance done to your ride. Even shoes wear out, faster when riding a scoot or ebike.

I'm environmentally conscience(think global, act local), but that was not my reason for an ebike. It all boiled down to three facts; 1)I could park my e-bike for free in the garage under my work as opposed to having to pay to park my scooter; 2) I could cut across a couple places the scooter wouldn't fit/ wasn't allowed; and 3) I could get a little exercise each day during my commute.

I've spent around $2,000 this year on the ebike. Most of that is battery cost as I've gotten a little carried away in this area. But batteries are equivalent to gas in my mind, just paying up front instead of over time.

Bryan

 

[billvon]

Everyone on this board is constantly tinkering. Is that just the "itch" people get? Are there people out there that travel 3-5 years on an ebike setup without doing any sort of major repairs or changes?

I've had a TF-X for about 4 years now; still riding it. I swapped batteries once during that time; replaced the hub battery with a 21ah lipo.

I will probably upgrade soon, but not because the TF has flaked out - because there are now better systems (EMS E+) available. That's one of the problems being on the bleeding edge; things improve, and if you want to keep close to the best performance out there you have to continually upgrade. Since ICE engines have been around a while that's not as much of an issue.

 

[stiffi]

Wow,

Thanks for all the replies.

I have a car. I'm not limited by budget. The ebiking is a hobby, and a way to feel better about myself for not driving "as much". The other reason I ride is to fill the gap left by not owning a motorcycle anymore. I have a family, and I fear riding any faster than about 40 MPH anymore. While still dangerous, I figure for most spills, I'm going to survive going 20 MPH or less. I could get mowed down by a car, I suppose, but the same chance exists walking on foot around town.

So, I got into ebiking because I thought it would be a way to get that motorcycle "feeling" without the added danger of highway speeds.

The trouble is, due to lack of knowledge and frustration I don't ride even a fraction of as much as I would like. First, my setup. At 36 volts, my 24 mile round trip ride is pretty tiring. I'm not in the best of shape, and I have to pedal all the time to get to work in under an hour. So, when I'm that tired at the end of the trip, I end up just taking the car most days. I probably only ride about 25 times a year to work. I mix in some neighborhood errand every once and a while, but only when I'm alone. I have 2 kids, so 90% of my trips, require a car with child seats. Finally, when I do ride to work, I have to ride through the city of Baltimore, and some of the streets are darn right deadly. Consequently, I don't ride in the dark. I have a 10w Trailrider light that is bright enough, but there are spots on my route, where getting hit over the head with a pipe, just for someone's idea of fun, is a very real possibility.

All this boils down to me thinking I'm wasting my time and money.

I thank everyone for their thoughts, as I try to work this out.

 

[AussieJester]

I figure for most spills, I'm going to survive going 20 MPH or less.

I wouldnt get to complacent about that, There was a fella on the Nightly News not so long ago that was pushed backwards outside a nightclub hit his head on the concrete footpath and died. Protection and awareness is your best defense IMO...Good quality helmet is a great start, road rash and bones heal a hard knock to the noggin on solid pavement/road never ends well.

All the best with your decison, your second paragraph leads me to believe a 250cc bike would definitely see more use than an e-bike or smaller ICE scooter though. No matter what you get as one of the above posters suggests, they will all at some point in time require maintenance, the advantage of the ICE alternatives (at this point in time) is as you have eluded to previously, service centres. If you dont have the time due to family or work commitments, you can book a ICE bike into the garage and have all maintenance done for you, good luck finding a Bicyle Shop that will do this for an e-bike, most from what i hear turn their noses up at them.

Best of luck with your choice, which ever you go with ensure quality head protection so you get to see you kiddies grow old

KiM

 

[stiffi]

Good quality helmet is a great start, road rash and bones heal a hard knock to the noggin on solid pavement/road never ends well.

Agreed. I always wear a helmet riding my bike, even though it's not required where I live.


KiM

 

[Little-Acorn]

I have spent $5000 over the past 10 years on equipment to ride "green" with electric transportation. I've sold second hand, most of that equipment and recouped maybe 1/2 of my investment.

Welcome to the world of "green" transportation.

People who think they are going to save money by going "green" are sadly mistaken. "Green" vehicles (like ebikes) are far more expensive than non-green (like that 49cc scooter), and their cost svings for operation, are miniscule over their non-green brothers.

When a 48V 40Ah LiFePO4 battery costs as much as a lead-acid car battery of similar energy storage capacity, and a controller costs as much as a transistor radio with similar numbers of components, and a hubmotor costs as mch as a VW bug starter motor, then Ebikes might become cost-effective. This will probably be in about 10 years, unless governments start making laws saying you can't ride an ebike any faster than you can pedal an unpowered bike - a real possibility, and some states already say that.

Why do you think the whole country hasn't gone green, 30 years ago? Because it costs too freaking much! And performance isn't up to that of non-green vehicles.

Did you know that it takes more energy to make a solar cell, than that cell will put out in its first seven years of operation, even if it puts out full power for every moment of daylight?

Green technology just ain't "worth it"... yet, and never has been, compared to non-green. That may change, but I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel yet. I dink around with ebikes because they're fun, not because I want to save money.

 

[AussieJester]

I dink around with ebikes because they're fun, not because I want to save money.

Agree with every point you made in the above post, well said... I also
'play' with e-bikes because they are fun, they keep me broke and i would prefer a 49cc motored
bicyle but they are illegal in Australia the e-bike has the 'stealth' factor...at the moment anywayz im sure once more
appear on the road the Law will start policing the overpowered bikes (like mine) and it will be back to the car
for me..

KiM

 

[TylerDurden]

There are lots of ways to achieve your desired shade of green.

My cousin was an ebiker, but moved over to owning a Prius... sure, not quite as eco-huggy as a bike, but a better fit for his needs in the long-run.

If you aren't getting the benefits of ebiking (quiet, parks, sidewalks, parking, etc.) and it's draining the budget, move on.

If you haven't yet given up meat in the family menu; doing that will reduce your eco-impact more than your transportation will.

 

[stiffi]

I do have a Civic Hybrid!

Leaning toward the small scooter. Just have to convince myself It's worth giving up the dream.

There is a silver lining. I do have a 24 volt Currie Powered Mongoose just wasting in the garage tied to a couple of old SLAs. Maybe I should upgrade that. Oh no, here we go again :wink:

 

[TylerDurden]

Maybe you've read ES member Toshi's saga... he's still pro e-bike, but the Piaggio MP3 was better for his new location/work (until it was stolen).

 

[The Stig]

He also gave it up because of the idiotic anti-ebike laws in NY... Which idiots made that law

 

[Chris_Faherty]

E is e-xpensive for sure initially, but I find it also very dangerous if I try to get to somewhere too fast. I make mistakes and the bike is not as visible as a motorbike. I wouldn't want to ride an e-bike into conditions where I compete with traffic every day.

I have a Kymco 125 scooter and it's not such a bad setup for 30 mile trips. Gets maybe 85+ mpg and around 55 mph sustained speed. I have tried it on longer trips but it just took too long relative to 70+ mph in a car.

 

[BikeFanatic]

It seems as i you are 1/2 way there with the GO HUB, just need a new battery. If you get a 48 15 amp hr ping
I think you will be happy with that performance. If you need a new controller the pedal first are easy to install just 3 wires.
I really didnot enjjoy my ebike until I upgraded to 48 volts, and ditched the heavy battries.