The arrogance of bike shops

[rbelisle1]

Long story short, bent a rim on a WE brushless, 1 flat spot that spanned 2 spokes and a slight bulge where the brakes ride. I took the wheel and motor to the first bike shop, a local independent that’s been in Phoenix as long as I have (30 + years). They take a look at it and say “we don’t fix those, due to the liability"... WTF... I ask what liability, you folks build rims all day long. The counter guy explains that this is a bike shop not a moped shop. Ok, narrow minded, that’s fine. So I ask for the Manager. Same song from him. Cool, guess who won’t get any money from me!!!!!!!! Down the road I go..........

Second bike shop, nation wide chain. I bring in the wheel, they way WOW its heavy, what is that a drum brake??? Then they say we don’t have spokes for that. I explain all I want to know is if they can fix the rim, or if they can put a new rim on it. Its 10am and the counter kid says the wheel builder comes in at 2 pm. I leave the wheel and my phone number. 4pm no call, I go down and see the "wheel builder". He says no he can’t fix it and no he will not put a new rim on it. He "doesn't build wheels". Then he try’s to sell me a 200 dollar rim. Extra heavy duty for the weight. Then he slips me a business card of “a guy I know" that builds wheels"... Out the door I go....

A little reading on the internet latter, a call to a Craigslist junk yard bike parts dealer, a 5 dollar used AL rim and a couple of hours work.... I built my own new wheel!!!!!!!!!!!!! I taped the new rim to the old rim, transferred the spokes, one by one, one side then the other. I mounted the wheel up on the forks, put a dial indicator on it and trued it up!!!!!!!! 1/10 of an inch side to side run out and less then that up and down.
Needless to say, I won’t be going back to either of the shops,,,, And I will be happy to relate this story to anyone who asks!!!!

Bottom line for me is that these two bike shops, and most likely more, came across as arrogant in how they trated me and don’t want my money,,, fine with me!!!!!!

bob in phx

bike shop names on request!!!

 

[johnrobholmes]

Most bike shops don't want to fuss with wheels anymore, and seeing an electric hub makes them nervous. Out of four local bike shops in town only one builds wheels anymore, and good luck getting it done fast!


Congrats on building your own wheel, feels good.

 

[docnjoj]

We have a very good local bike shop "Eastern Shore Cycles" in Daphne, AL who do good work and have never turnd down a hub motor wheel for truing! Reasonable prices and ready the next day. They're not all bad!
otherDoc

 

[johnrobholmes]

I think it really boils down to the competency of the workers or managers. If they haven't built many wheels they won't be comfortable building up such a large flange diameter wheel. The ONE concern I have with the hub motors is the strength of the flange. Over tightening could break the flange, and under tightening could make the rim bend easily. I am lucky enough to have more experience building and servicing wheels than the average rider. As a child I would delace and relace wheels for fun, seeing how many patterns I could find for each spoke count and hub diameter. 48 spoke asymmetric 4 cross braided lace was always my favorite for some reason- it is one of the hardest to pull off without mangling spokes. For my 13th birthday I got my own bike stand, and when I turned 18 I went all out and bought a nice wheel truing stand.

Maybe I should open up my own Ebike shop just so I can build wheels for people :lol:

 

[Link]

I don't even bother with the shops. I figure this has become enough of a hobby to where it would warrant buying a truing stand (should get here tomorrow), since I've already built two wheels, and am about to build another. Building wheels is a good skill to learn if you ride bikes a lot.

 

[John in CR]

I've experienced both ends of the spectrum with shops down here. 3 have been very interested and extremely helpful. 1 shop I stopped at with my bike, while looking for strong rims and fat tires was absolutely dismissive. I'm sitting on a $2k downhill bike and asking how to stiffen up the suspension for the 260lbs of me and batteries, and the spanish response I got was essentially "We are a shop for professional cyclists and we aren't interest". He even increased the price of the downhiller by $600...unbelievable!

John

 

[pwbset]

3 local shops. Only one will deal with me and I've had to get to know the owner because all his employees sing different tunes depending on the day and their mood. Annoying as all hell. I've broken 3 spokes in the last 2 days so I call and say, "hey... I need 6 190mm spokes" and they usually say, "sorry, can't do custom spokes"... and I say, "funny... you've been doing them for me since June." Fickle people. For what it's worth 188mm work to in a pinch for 4 series and that seems to be a default readily available length. I've found 192mm a tiny bit too long... not that I popped a tube finding out or anything. :wink:

I'm about 1/3rd the way through my default Clyte crap spokes at this point and getting fairly good at re-spoking 1-2 new ones at a time while keeping the wheel relatively balanced. I just use my rear brake and eyeballs as a guide and just get it professionally trued every 6-8 popped spokes. I've determined that heat is weakening these spokes at the motor and that speed kills these things. At 28-30mph a tiny little bump will set off the *plink*... at 20mph or less I never seem to break a spoke unless I'm off road, which unfortunately is like half the time. Apparently my replacement spokes are actually made locally in Montana by a master wheel smith somewhere. None of them has broken. Trying to find out more about this person. Sounds neat.

 

[docnjoj]

I always build my own wheels and then bring them to the shop for truing. I now use either 14 ga forged stainless or straight stainless (Swiss or American, thankyou) and have never broken a spoke! The bike shop knows their stuff and i use high quality, but thinner (2mm) spokes. Works 4 me!
otherDoc

 

[swbluto]

I haven't experienced such arrogance yet. I noticed this once friendly bike-guy had an air of disdain once I rolled in with my electric bike; Other than that, I haven't noticed any other effects from the bike guys. Of course, I haven't requested a wheel to be built which I probably am going to have to soon.

 

[rbelisle1]

The really interesting part is that I have a couple of guys that I work with, who I consider friends, who are real live honest to goodness roadies. They ride across europe and do 200 mile ride (on and off road) every weekend and they ride to work a couple of times a week. These guys are super. I ask questions and they give me all that they know. They offer to help me get the "bike" parts working and everything. These guys really live the bicycle life and they are willing to help. I dont understand the two bike shops I went to. You would think that anything that helped the sport or cause or whatever you want to call it would be good. I mean service is service and service means money. I guess change, new products and a new service market arent what they are about. Oh well, life is to short and the good thing is that I learned something new, namely "how to build a bike wheel". And that makes me feel really good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Anonymous]

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[RLT]

Only one bike shop here.
They usually have one bicycle in the window, a rack of T-shirts, a few water bottles, some power bars and a rack of sunglasses for sale.
But mostly what they have is a really snotty attitude, which they will give away, free, as much as you can carry, the moment you walk in the door.
From what I've observed of their "bike mechanic", I wouldn't have him adjust the seat post or pump up the tires. He doesn't even stock any standard spokes or spoke nipples, sprockets or master links for chain.

Just one of the hazards of living in a small resort town, I guess.
If Ace Hardware, Checker Auto or Walmart doesn't have what I need, I either have to make it myself or order online.

 

[Anonymous]

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[dogman dan]

In my town, two old established bike shops, and one that opened this summer. Guess which one has got a good attitude. The others will take my money, but seem to like to help me last, even if people walk in the door after I did. I guess I can understand, that they want to sell new bikes, and hate to see me in there making a damn good bike out of wallmart trash frame and garage sale components. Now that I have about 8 10 buck bikes in the yard, I don't need them or their attitude anymore at all! Getting a wheel trued will cost twice as much at the new shop, and I have no problem paying it. Screw those yahoos and thier, my real buisness is selling golf clubs attitude.

This weeks 10 buck score has wieneman-bottranger wheels and good, mostly functional components on it. A Quicksiver yokota for 10 bucks. It's headset fit a misbought but nice alloy suspension fork I had around, and now it's a real nice bike. The extra fat tires on it were the best thing on it since I live in sand land. It's my new trail bike for sure. If you count the fork and the ten buck bike other parts came from, $30 total cost. This is fun!

 

[DahonElectric]

Long story short, bent a rim on a WE brushless, 1 flat spot that spanned 2 spokes and a slight bulge where the brakes ride. I took the wheel and motor to the first bike shop, a local independent that’s been in Phoenix as long as I have (30 + years). They take a look at it and say “we don’t fix those, due to the liability"... WTF... I ask what liability, you folks build rims all day long. The counter guy explains that this is a bike shop not a moped shop. Ok, narrow minded, that’s fine. So I ask for the Manager. Same song from him. Cool, guess who won’t get any money from me!!!!!!!! Down the road I go..........

Second bike shop, nation wide chain. I bring in the wheel, they way WOW its heavy, what is that a drum brake??? Then they say we don’t have spokes for that. I explain all I want to know is if they can fix the rim, or if they can put a new rim on it. Its 10am and the counter kid says the wheel builder comes in at 2 pm. I leave the wheel and my phone number. 4pm no call, I go down and see the "wheel builder". He says no he can’t fix it and no he will not put a new rim on it. He "doesn't build wheels". Then he try’s to sell me a 200 dollar rim. Extra heavy duty for the weight. Then he slips me a business card of “a guy I know" that builds wheels"... Out the door I go....

A little reading on the internet latter, a call to a Craigslist junk yard bike parts dealer, a 5 dollar used AL rim and a couple of hours work.... I built my own new wheel!!!!!!!!!!!!! I taped the new rim to the old rim, transferred the spokes, one by one, one side then the other. I mounted the wheel up on the forks, put a dial indicator on it and trued it up!!!!!!!! 1/10 of an inch side to side run out and less then that up and down.
Needless to say, I won’t be going back to either of the shops,,,, And I will be happy to relate this story to anyone who asks!!!!

Bottom line for me is that these two bike shops, and most likely more, came across as arrogant in how they trated me and don’t want my money,,, fine with me!!!!!!

bob in phx

bike shop names on request!!!

Bob,

Running a bike shop is really not so easy. You can not really appease any customers whatsoever these days. So I surmise that the only way to appease customers is to service what you know and that's probably why those 2 shops refused to help you in anyway.
Here's the reason. If the well established bike shop did help you re-build your motor hub wheel without the innards working of the motor itself, the shop is really liable for both the safety of their wheel build plus the flanges if they are weakened after the first build and ride. That's way too much liability to take on for a measly wheel build which, in these days, don't fetch a lot of money either. So I don't think it's fair to blame the bike shops per se. In fact, did those 2 stores sold you your electric WE kit?
Let's assume that one of those stores did take in your wheel and help you re-build it. Then all of the sudden, something broke because of their lack of knowledge in electric hub motors. Who would you blame first?

I too had been rejected a wheel build by several high end road bike shops on my human powered racing mountain bike, and I don't take them personally. I simply won't recommend my mountain bike friends to go and get their bikes or wheels fixed that's all.

I used to work in the bike store for free during the weekend so I can learn how to fix bikes and build wheels and we used to help a number of people like yourself. But occasionally, we ended up on a sour note simply because we weren't knowledgeable enough in servicing the unique equipment and ended compensating loss and damages because the customers were irate, confrontational and aggressive. And why wouldn't they if you happened to damage their equipment or it ended up damaged after it left the store? The customer will not accept blame because he or she thinks it's all the bike shop's fault. But really, some fault must lie on the customer's end because he or she insists a store with no knowledge in your equipment to service it. Don't you agree?
Case in point was when I led a bicycle camping tour for a club and one participant was having trouble with his rear Cannondale branded hub -- it was seizing up. And we were touring in places where they are no national brand bike shops, but we came to a small mom & dad shop that heard about our plight from the campsite. He actually came to the campsite, took the wheel and said he'll fix it. The next day when we went to the store, the rear hub was in pieces. I had some knowledge about servicing hubs and boy did he wrecked it. It was totally broken -- going from a very simple repair to a complete disaster.
Oh man, you should have seen my friend cursing at him, shitted at him and asking for a replacement. Problem is, he didn't have any new hubs to replace with, so he ended up grabbing a new wheel off his inventory and gave that to him as compensation.

You see what happens.. Nice guys get blamed for being helpful but lack of competence.


I think those stores are smart. I think you need to become responsible yourself which I see you did by re-building your own wheel. It's really not difficult once you know how.

 

[Ypedal]

After 100's of visits and 1000's of $$$$ spent at my local " Bungay's Bike Shop " .. i must say i am happy with them and they know me by name, willingly help me out with any bicycle relates stuff and i get 20 % off everything in the store since i buy a few bicycles a year from them lately.. and it will only get better with time lol..

I don't expect them to know anything about the electric part, it's not their thing, a hub and a rim is just that, but as said above, spending shop time to build your wheel when they don't know the source of the hub or it's reliability is risky for them, a good shop would politely say this and not leave you feeling sour, but we all have our moments lol..

Hit up " The Bicycle Wheel " by Jobst Brandt

http://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Wheel-3rd-Jobst-Brandt/dp/0960723668

Easy reading, and very well done.. after reading this you will be on the right track..

 

[swbluto]

We even have "exclusive" or "ritzy" bike shops here. I went to one in a very upscale neighborhood, looked at some bikes, $5800 ouch $2800, $1500. They did have one bike for $700 I think that was the cheapest. The guy I talked to knew nothing about ebikes but was very interested and asked a lot of questions, looked closely at my bike. Then I found out that he's in this international contest to engineer a robotic submersible that has to move stuff around underwater, cool! So I forgave his ebike ignorance. I won't let bike shops touch my bike around here, except for one shop. They have no idea how to deal with a hub wheel, none.

Those price tags sound similar to my LBS's price range. I didn't think my neighborhood was that fancy.

But they do have a few(Emphasis on "few") cheaper bikes around the range of 300-400 dollars: Typical front suspension.

 

[dogman dan]

I can definietly agree with the above two posts. The bike shops I deal with don't refuse to serve me so I guess I'm lucky. But two of the three definitely serve me last since they can tell I'll never buy a new bike from them. Just today, I got to wait and wait and wait to buy a couple brake pads. Boy they jumped on it when the gal with a $2000 road bike bought from them wanted a water bottle. I can't blame em.

 

[DahonElectric]

We even have "exclusive" or "ritzy" bike shops here. I went to one in a very upscale neighborhood, looked at some bikes, $5800 ouch $2800, $1500. They did have one bike for $700 I think that was the cheapest. The guy I talked to knew nothing about ebikes but was very interested and asked a lot of questions, looked closely at my bike. Then I found out that he's in this international contest to engineer a robotic submersible that has to move stuff around underwater, cool! So I forgave his ebike ignorance. I won't let bike shops touch my bike around here, except for one shop. They have no idea how to deal with a hub wheel, none.

Those price tags sound similar to my LBS's price range. I didn't think my neighborhood was that fancy.

But they do have a few(Emphasis on "few") cheaper bikes around the range of 300-400 dollars: Typical front suspension.

My suspicion with these high priced bikes is probably due to the popularity of triathlons. And it is one of the sports that you can actually use money to buy more speed without putting a lot more hard work. A nice aerobike with aerowheels ($6000 is not uncommon) can literally buy you minutes on the podium, so even regular folks buy into this. Years ago when I was racing, I heard an impromptu talk given by an elite triathlete and she said she spent around $15,000 a year in gear, nutrition, wet suit, massage, medical, etc... She had to or her competitors who may have better bikes and support can have the upper hand over her. Most folks can spend on the upwards of $10,000. It's an addictive sport and it makes people spend money to get those precious minutes so they can get a PR (Personal Record), so unless you've got some sponsor helping pay your bills, you're on your own.

Bike stores love racers and triathletes, because these are the people that will always spend some major money every year. Aerowheels, gears, tubes and tires etc -- everything either Ultegra, 105 or Dura Ace. Whereas, most of us are contend with lower end bikes with Shimano Sora or lower.

 

[DahonElectric]

I can definietly agree with the above two posts. The bike shops I deal with don't refuse to serve me so I guess I'm lucky. But two of the three definitely serve me last since they can tell I'll never buy a new bike from them. Just today, I got to wait and wait and wait to buy a couple brake pads. Boy they jumped on it when the gal with a $2000 road bike bought from them wanted a water bottle. I can't blame em.

I sometimes get better service if I roll into the shop with my carbon race bike. I get the red carpet treatment with the shop, though my bike has been a couple years old. Still, they treat you like their own. But when I roll in with my commuter bike with low end components, even the patrons in the shop look at my bike and probably whispered among themselves -- what's this piece of s**t doing here. It's a matter of getting treated first or second class and some shops treat racer wannabes better. Do you ever wonder why people are willing to pay $2000 to $5000 on a bike when a properly fitted $700 or less bike and a well supervised or organized cardiovascular training program can do wonders on how fast and far you can ride? Most people choose the easy $2000 way out. High end bikes also carry a certain pinache. When Lance Armstrong was winning the tours, it wasn't that difficult selling Trek carbon bikes. It sold on its own. Well, Trek will have their chance again with Lance coming back for another bid for the 8th Tour De France.. Yeap, I can see Trek bikes, high priced OCLV whatever, again selling like hot cakes if he does win!

 

[dogman dan]

I'm sure those guys can smell cheapskate a mile away and I reek of it! Still, a sale is a sale, and when you are standing there with an item in your hand,,, walmart is on the way home too.

 

[swbluto]

I think we can agree customers financially profit their businesses differently. And I can imagine cheap-skates are among the bottom, so the difference in treatment might not be too unexpected. By the way, it seems like 3-4 out of 5 people with bikes in my LBS have these $1000+ bikes(dual suspension fox, typical roadie admiring the $3000 model, etc.) so I'm guessing my LBS's clientele are a little bit ritzier than some.

Any ways, I was looking into getting my busted 407 wheel rebuilt when I receive the rotor and I told them of the horror story how truing it might have resulted in its busting due to the relatively high tension than it's "designed for"(Why doesn't crystalyte revert to steel for the hub? I can understand the economic motives, but it seriously miffs me when I'm the one left stranded with this oh-so-called "little maintenance" wheel when I come in a year or 2 after they make a material change.) and he started stuttering when I asked him if he could build it for me(instead of me investing three times the amount of money in having the correct equipment when I imagine this is going to be my last wheel I'll need to build. Well... I might have to rebuild the Golden one eventually.). I assured him I wouldn't hold him liable as I understand the risks but I just made a request that the tension be kept "low" but I'm not too sure how capable they are of that since it seemed their way of measuring tension was squeezing the spokes and apparently their tensiometer is a "piece of crap" or some metaphor for uselessness. After that, he agreed! And then I reminded him I might be coming again in 2 weeks.

So, if you explain you won't hold them liable, they might be more understanding. Or at least someone. I'm guessing it helps to have rapport with your LBS for the understanding to be a little bit smoother(instead of those "Nothing is going to change my mind" types. ).

 

[johnrobholmes]

I don't like the tension meters, they are hard to keep accurate and the lace will change the reading. I use my good judgement and spoke pushing to determine the tension. Loosening part of a wheel is normally needed on a machine built.

 

[gogo]

I bought a $80 Polaris dual suspension scratch and dent bike from these guys:
http://bicyclesurplus.cyclesg.com/

I think they qualify as a low end LBS. They were not arrogant at all. They are the outlet for an operation that sells "branded" bikes:
http://cyclesg.com/

If anyone wants me to take more detailed pictures of one of the scratched outlet bikes, I'd be more than happy to.

 

[Zoot Katz]

There are a few shops around town that have been stricken from my shopping list, and I'm sure they don't care.

It's the aroma of a bike shop that attracts me.
If the place smells right I can ignore or counter most of the bullshit.

After 14 years off the bike I walked into a bicycle shop to buy a kick scooter for getting to the bus stop. The smell brought back a flood of memories.
The scooter was a blast and I shortly wore off the wheels so I went to another bike shop looking for replacements and the smell hit me again. They didn't have wheels but a week or two later, coasting home on the Razor and enduring the vibration, I decided to get my bikes back on the road.

I was hooked again so I rode to the second shop looking for an obscure part. They recommended me to the mother lode. The shop that had the most potent distinctive bike shop smell ever. They also had the pedal part I wanted. It's a community bike shop and instantly became my LBS. The owner of the shop making that recommendation became a personal friend.

The manager/wrench on duty at the third shop was a twenty something, punk, pierced, scarified, tattooed, lesbian Amazon a full head taller than me.
She saw me as her antithesis but I couldn't help but drooling on her shoes. Despite the cultural and generational differences we both had the spirit of cycling in our souls. I knew I'd found my bike shop and built from scratch with second hand and new parts the first fat tire bike I'd had since age 11.

The initial ice soon melted, eventually cooled the Tequila and on one occasion she even offered to show me more of her tats.

After 8 years, it's still my favourite bike shop. She's got a job to match her degree now. I've had to show a few of the ever changing new mechanics where the freewheel vise is stored and demonstrate its use. The annual OCB! (Our Community Bikes!) Halloween party is legendary and not to be missed.

Some of the stores' display of arrogance is to cover their incompetence.

Dealing with The Renaissance Bicycle Company, aka. ebikes.ca, has been a pleasure. They all have knowledge greater than mine in the field of my neophyte inquiry but I can sincerely say they've never talked down to me. They take the time to listen and freely give information at the level you understand.

Bravo, Alison, Justin and Zev.