The E-cumbent - A project by Matt Shumaker

I just ordered $120 worth of belts, pulleys and what-not for this new motor setup.

It has alot more power and a slightly lower KV.

I want to gear it for 45mph and do some testing.

Matt
 
I have one of the new Eagle Tree micor loggers on order. It is the new 150 amp unit. I preordered it a couple weeks ago. They are due to ship by the end of this month. :mrgreen:

I have the display already mounted and ready to go.

I am excited! I love refining this thing. But, at $1,000 for this darn motor, it had better work well! I also have to do alot of machining to make it fit.

Anyway, I will post pics when I get it. I will post pics of the old mtoro and the new motor side by side for comparison.

This thing is turning into quite an exotic project. Hopefully it all comes together. It already runs well. I just need a motor without the EMF hickup this on e has.

Miles, how goes your Astro Flight motor testing?

Matt
 
I'm going to do some more serious bench testing when I get a decent battery, then I'll post the results. I'm happy with the motor so far, though. It's the perfect form factor for me, too. It will be interesting to compare it with the Terminator, which is pretty much exactly the same size and weight.

I bought a new bike which was reduced to £200 in a sale and I'm planning to use it a test-bed, with one of these to help measure efficiency directly.

I'm also finishing the reconstruction of my opus 1, which uses this motor

Yes it's exciting to be in at the beginning with this stuff - in a few years it will be as formalised as the electric RC world is, now :mrgreen:

Did you get the GT3 belts, in the end?
 
Sounds cool.

No I got GT2. That is what I am running now and I like them.

I am curious how the Astro motor works. I had one on order and cancelled the order to get the Terminator. But, cough, chough, it is 3 and 1/2 times the cost. It should run incredibly, though.

Well, I am going for another ride. :mrgreen:

Matt
 
Matt, Miles, and Gary,

What specifically separates cheap outrunners from expensive ones? Is it in the construction of the laminations of the stator? My plan is to use the biggest HXT with the 130KV winding. I look at these motors and see the only potential point of failure being the bearings, so I will eliminate any stress on them by supporting both ends of the shaft with the best bearing I can find and those will be held by my motor mount. If you see any holes in my plan or any advice, please let me know.

John
 
I doubt you will have any problems with the bearings. Support is not a bad idea, though. :wink:

There are numerous differences between cheap and expensive motors. One difference is overall build quality. Another is how well the windings are wound. Many RC guys rewwind cheap motors with the same wire and same number of turns and get far better efficiency due to (I am assuming) tighter and more precise winding. The $1,000 Terminator I ordered uses the two bearings on the shaft and one huge bearing around the base of the motor can. So, the can is not cantelevered by the end of the shaft as all other outrunners are.

I am not an electrical engineer. But, I do know quality when I see it. I have run many exremely high end motors (Hacker, Neu, Plettenberg, etc) and can attest to the benefit of buying quality. That being said, is the Plettenberg Terminator worth the 300% increase in price over the AXI? I doubt it. It is a better motor, for sure, but I think it is overpriced. However, I haven't recieved mine to test yet.

I will definately keep you posted.

Matt
 
John in CR said:
Matt, Miles, and Gary,

What specifically separates cheap outrunners from expensive ones? Is it in the construction of the laminations of the stator? My plan is to use the biggest HXT with the 130KV winding. I look at these motors and see the only potential point of failure being the bearings, so I will eliminate any stress on them by supporting both ends of the shaft with the best bearing I can find and those will be held by my motor mount. If you see any holes in my plan or any advice, please let me know.

John

Matt is right, overall build quality is one difference, but the quality of the materials is really a bigger factor. There's quite a performance difference between the various types of magnetic material used, for instance, and also with the quality of the steel used in the stators. Cheap motors use cheap steel, which has less consistancy in the "mix". Impurities cause small eddy currents, which take away from the motor's efficiency. These currents add to the heat losses, which go up as a square function of the current. Historically, Hacker and Plettenberg "inrunner"-type motors have used very high quality materials, and have hand-wound the stators, but they have always been uber-expensive. I'm not sure about the Plettenberg outrunners, but I know for sure that the big Hackers are now made in China, with machine-wound cores, but the steel comes from Germany and although the magnets are from China, Mr. Hacker himself went through nine different suppliers before he found one that could supply high quality magnets on a consistant basis.

Steve Neu also uses the best quality steel, and the best magnets he can find. He actually gets the stator plates made in India, but consistancy of the steel is the best possible. He has the stators hand-wound in Mexico, which is not a big deal, as his operation is in San Diego. The magnets come from a company back in Pennsylvania, I think, and finally, he has the cases machined in China. Final assemby and test are done in San Diego. In any case, his motors are extremely efficient, with the lowest no-load current ratings of any series of motors I'm aware of, but are not the most expensive.

-- Gary
 
The Pletti is 14mm wider than the AXI. But, the magnets and can are thinner than the AXI. The stator is roughly 18mm wider than the AXI. I should have farr better pulling power than the AXI.

The efficiency may be a touch lower. But, many factors come into play.

I will post my findings once it is up and running.

Matt
 
i wish they would publish more info on that terminator motor, they don't specify winding resistance, but you can calculate it semi-accurately from the data they have on the website.

Kv 215 rpm/V
voltage 28,0 - Amperage 69,6 - Rpm 4800

(28.0 - ((1.0 / 215.0) * 4800)) / 69.6 = 0.082 Ohms

if this is correct then the maximum possible power output of this motor at 48V is, 48.0 / 0.082 * 48.0 / 4.0 = 7024.4W

if that is the "hot" resistance while the motor is running which i hear is usually double the cold measured resistance then for the AXI motor ill use a resistance of 0.054 Ohms.
48.0 / 0.054 * 48.0 / 4.0 = 10666W

those are the max possible power outputs, at 1/2 no load speed and at approx 50% efficiency.

you will get the same performance out of both motors though, your controller is the limiting factor, the max power it can put out is about 4800W, and both motors have a very similar Kv the terminator is a tad bit lower so you will get a tiny amount more torque per amp. the only real difference would be that the terminator would have worse efficiency while accelerating or going up steep hills, cruising efficiency should be pretty much the same.
 
The controller is capable of running 125 amps continuous according to Castle Creations. The amperage cutouff hits at 160 amps. The controller is good for 150 amps for 60 seconds. It has never even warmed up for me. In fact, the wires have warmed up without any discernable controller heat. :)

I am really excited to run it. I do not need more power, per-se. What I want is smoother running with no EMF screeching that the AXI displays at 2500 RPM.

Anyway, the Pletti is supposedly good for 50% more wattage continuous. So, it should be plenty happy running at my modest loads while being plenty capable at higher loads.

Oh, the built in fan is not an issue. I found out the specs are all for the airplane motor with no fan. So, the additional cooling of the fan is not taken into account in the ratings.

At any rate, again, I am not looking for any better efficiency or even more power (though more would be welcome). :mrgreen: I am looking for a higher quality, smooth running, no EMF problems, and less concerns about overtaxing it.

Matt
 
I will post pics tomorrow.

I have the power unit pulled out and the motor and a BUNCH of belts and pullies ready to go to the shop tomorrow.

I will be in the shop about 4 hours tomorrow working on it. I think I will need to put another 2 or 3 hours into it Friday. I should have it running be Friday afternoon.

I need to machine a new motor front plate, a new right side chain idler bracket, and I need to completely disassemble the power unit to do some EXTENSIVE machining to make it fit.

This is like shoe-horning a big block into a Vega. :mrgreen:

Matt
 
I am on my way out to the fireworks, so I do not have pics to post today. (I will post tomorrow for sure).

I put close to 4 hours in the bike today. Sheesh, shoe-horning this thing into my bike is proving to be a freaking nightmare! I had to completely disassemble the power unit to remove a bunch of material from the left plate. I also had to lengthen the motor mount holes, move and relocate a center stiftening plate, machine half the thickness off the upper mount plate, remove the right side lower chain idler (have to make a new mount for it tomorrow), and do misc. other things. While I had it out, I took the opportunity to make various other changes as well.

Anyway, I also have to move the entire power unit rearward 3 or 4mm to keep the motor from hitting the front frame boss.

Man, oh man, talk about difficult! With all this time and money, it had better run well!

Boy, I will have egg on my face if it doesn't! :oops:

Oh, I weighed everything today. All the componentry related to the electrical system on my bike weighs in at 13 pounds TOTAL. The power unit weighs 85 ounces, the pack weighs 80 ounces and the rest is secondary chain, sprocket, and misc wiring.

Not bad for a setup good for 25 miles at 20mph or 17 miles at 35mph without pedalling!

Matt :mrgreen:
 
Hi Matt,


those weights you mention are awesome 8)
When are you moving to the UK and when can you build me something similair for my kona? :twisted:


Cheers


D
 
Here is the update I sent to Warren to load on teh web site; :wink:

I have put about 200 miles one the E-Cumbent since building it and I am having a blast with it! I have, however, encountered a few problems. A couple of them are simple issues, not worth discussing here. However, one problem has been nagging from the beginning;

The AXI motor has an odd issue. The Back EMF (magnetic pulse the controller uses to "Read" the motor armature position) is not consistant. Basically the motor can resonates at one specific RPM which confuses the controller and make the motor eminate a loud screaching sound. When that happens, I get off the throttle, let the controller read the motor RPM properly, then get back on the throttle. I did alot of research into this. It is not a controller problem, it is a specific issue unique to AXI motors. It is rarely discussed because the motor is designed for airplane use. As such, it does not affect its operation in an RC plane. However, in my application, it is an issue.

So, I began looking into replacement motors. None that I found is a direct replacement. One, however, looked fantastic, but would not fit my bike without serious modifications. That is the Plettenberg Terminator 30-8 heli motor. I have run Plettenberg motors in RC helis for years. They are the best outrunners money can buy. Well, I e-Bayed a LARGE amount of RC stuff to buy this motor and it was worth every cent!

The issue mounting it is related to the diameter (among other things). It is 14mm wider than the AXI. The AXI was already a tight fit. This thing just barely fits and only after a large amount of machining. Here's what I did;

I removed the power unit and the AXI motor. Im then removed the motor front plate. That was done to drill and tap two 4mm holes to fit the 1.75 inch AXI mount hole locations. This was done to eliminate the need to maching a new plate on the power unit. This step was far quicker.

Next, I completely disassembled the power unit. Every screw and aluminum piece was removed, machined (if needed), cleaned, drilled, tapped, etc, etc, etc. Very few parts were not modded for this conversion.

Once I began disassembling the power unit, I removed a center divider wall in the power unit to provide clearance. Next I machined the heck out of the power unit sides. I removed every bit of aluminum I could from the power unit to make the motor fit. It is such a tight fit that the sticker on the can was too thick and got rubbed off in one spot! The fit is so tight, in fact, that I had to make a new chain idler bracket for clearance, and I only have 3mm fore/aft movement of the motor for belt adjustment, and that 3mm is only possible by moving the entire power unit back 3mm.

I spent a total of 7 hours on it. Now, how does it run? Wonderful!

Here's the scoop on its performance;

The back EMF screach is totally gone. No problem at all! It accellerates perfectly smooth all the way from 0 RPM to full throttle. This motor has very little sound compared to the AXI. It does not groul and whine like the AXI. It makes a sonderful muffled whistle that is pleasing to the ear. It also is more tractable at very low speeds (5mph pulling my kids in the Burly trailer). This motor is also more powerful. The AXI is rated at 4,000 watts. This Plettenberg is rated at 6,000 watts! However, I only pull 3,000 watts from it most often (hard accellerating). I have the slipper clutch set to protect the driveline. But, it is obvious the Plettenberg is less stressed when pushed hard than the AXI was. The AXI never really seemed to like being pushed really hard. It would run well, but always felt like it was unhappy with the use. Not so with the Plettenberg!

The only downside is a slight reduction in efficiency. This motor is larger with a lower efficiency rating. I have not alculated it axactly (been pulling the kids in the trailer). But, it is taking a touch more amp hours to recharge after our typical ride. With the AXI, I averaged roughly 16 watt-hours per mile. If I had to guess, I would say this motor is more like 17 or 17.5 watt-hours per mile. Not a bad drop, but it does seem to be a touch lower than the AXI. I will calculate it exactly and get back to you with the numbers. What I find odd about the drop in efficiency is the motor heat. I would expect an increase in motor heat with a drop in efficiency. However, that is not the case. This motor runs the same temp as the AXI. Again, I will have to check the efficiency exactly and get back to you.

Well, that's it for now!

Matt
 

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:shock:

Sweeeeet ! :p

Hey.. check your calibration.. cuz 16 wh/mile on that kind of performance is very good ! If that does indeed turn out to be right, i'm very impressed ! ( and even if it's not.. daaaamn.. how much would you sell something like this for ? if you were making exact copies in batches of 6 at a time or so ? :lol: )
 
Hey get this. I just got in from a 5.29 mile ride averaging 20mph. My watt-hours per mile? 14.49 on that ride (no pedalling at all)!! :mrgreen:

I think I know what is going on here. This motor has so much pull, I have had a hard time keeping my thumb off the throttle. I have been hammering the throttle listening to the motor whistle and appreciating the accelleration. But, that was killing my efficiency. This ride only saw a couple hard throttle hits and alot of coasting on the flats and downhills rather than just keeping the motor running.

If I had to guess what is going on, I would say the AXI was much more consistant. It also was not very good at hard launches because of the EMF issue. So, that automatically kept the accelleration down to a reasonable level and, thus, the watt-hours per mile. This motor runs so smooth, it is easy to be always on the throttle. Also, this motor is lower efficiency than the AXI. I think it pulls more wattage under hard accelleration than the AXI, but at modest loads and RPM, it is more efficient. Am I making any sense?

Oh, it is geared 10% higher too. The AXI ran best geared for 35mph top speed. This is 39mph (wound out on the flats). So, this efficiency is with taller gearing as well.

Oh, also, I have the clutch set for 0 to 30mph in 7 seconds. It can do better if I stiften the clutch. But, I am not sure how my rear hub will handle that.

Matt
 
This setup is much different than the AXI. I just got in from a 5 mile ride. That ride was mostly full throttle on hilly roads up at 37mph. My WH per mile on that ride was 24. I used to see 17 to 18 WH per mile at 35 to 37 mph with the AXI. So, the AXI was super consistant, while this Plettenberg is extremely speed and load sensitive. I would compare it to a small, hyper, turbo charged 4 cyclinder. It is efficient at modest loads and speeds, but when opened up, there is alot of power on tap, but you pay for it in drastically reduced mileage. :wink:

Any thoughts?

Matt
 
recumpence said:
Any thoughts?
re the efficiency: the bigger motor prolly has a higher current at stall... so it can draw more current on the hills... current = heat... heat = losses.

Maybe?

:D
 
Miles, it is on order. Still no joy, though. :( I have been judging WH per mile by recharge input back into the pack.

Tyler, maybe. However, the Plettenberg runs the same temp as the AXI. I think (though I am not an engineer) the AXI has similar efficiency and heat output throughout a wide operating wattage, RPM, and overall load (combination of the two). However, the Plettenberg has a definate sweet spot. If operated in taht sweet spot, it is very efficient. Outside that sweet spot, it will run smooth, EXTREMELY powerful, and happily, though dropping alot of efficiency in the process.

Actually, it may be neither. It may be that this Plettenberg is so much more powerful and smooth, that I am just on the throttle more.

I just came in from another ride. Judging by my pack voltage (rough calculation) my WH per mile on that ride was 15 WH per mile. That ride was averaging 20mph with a little 15mph running and a little 26 mph running (no pedalling at all). I also let the speed slow down up hills and speed up down hills to maximize WH per mile.

I will post the exact WH per mile after the pack is charged.

Matt
 
recumpence said:
I also let the speed slow down up hills and speed up down hills to maximize WH per mile.
Aren't most motors more efficient at higher speeds, speeds approaching the no-load speed? Thus wouldn't it be most efficient to maintain the highest speed that the motor can pull while at the same time backing off on the throttle just to the point that any less throttle input would cause one to slow down?
 
id say its because of the higher winding resistance, keep in mind that it is still very low, 80milliohms, so the motor will still get the same current as the AXI motor, the current is being limited by the controller not the motor, only at very high rpm, like 8000rpm probably will the backemf cause the current to start to drop below the controller current limit. so basically the terminator will have about 1.5 times the losses(0.080 / 0.054) as the AXI motor when they are both running at the same current.
 
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