The SB Cruiser : Amberwolf's 2WD Heavy Cargo Trike & Dog Carrier

[amberwolf]

Maybe anticipation, and then exhaustion?


Recharged at work, but still a significantly lower wh/mile going home.

To-work stats:
54.8v start
56.4v end
2.140miles
2.206Ah
118.52Wh
56.4Wh/mile
Zero regen % or Ah
0A min
76.58A max
49.6V min
20.2mph max
15.8mph avg
8m06s triptime

To-home stats

54.8v start
56.6v end
2.113miles
1.794Ah
96.745Wh
45.9Wh/mile
Zero regen % or Ah
0A min
75.35A max
49.4V min
20.3mph max
15.7mph avg
8m04s triptime

The only significant differences in stats are the power used (and thus the efficiency, since the trip distance and average speed is practically the same).

It is possible that the higher average speed by one-tenth of a MPH on the way to work accounts for some of teh wh/mile difference, but I'm not entirely sure why it *would* be a higher speed, as I keep an eye on the speedo and hold it as close as possible to 19.9MPH for these tests; the terrain doesn't vary that much and there's virtually no wind or breeze right now, so it's pretty easy to do, except when approaching non-pass-thru (for me) traffic controls.

The only sections that are *not* at those speeds are the very short distance in my work's parking lot, and in one section of a parking lot I go thru just north of Dunlap, about halfway thru either direction's trip, but I go the same speed there, too, 10MPH, and it's slopes also cancel each other out, AFAICT, and it is too short and too low a speed to account for that much energy anyway, AFAIK.

I could test that by going around the parking lot, staying on the street, but only if I do a trip really late at night (2-3am or so), when there is no traffic at the south exit of Metrocenter, becuase that intersection is too dangerous with people not paying attention, in both directions but most especially coming home making a left turn from it.

I could also test it by stopping and checking the wh/mile before I go thru that section, and after, and/or resetting and discarding the wh/mile info from that point homeward, and from home to that point. (and vice-versa).



There is *one* short section that I realized might account for the difference: accelerating out and north from that parking lot going into metroparkway from home to work, is a slight slope up to and over the canal. There is a slope in both directions but it is slightly steeper going to work than coming home. It takes around 1300-1400W to maintain just under 20MPH on that, with just me and the trike (no dogs/cargo). I forget what it is going home but I think it is the same, just for a few seconds less.

I don't imagine that is the cause of the difference either, not by as much as it is, but it's one more thought.


It is also possible that there is enough of an unnoticeable (to me) upwards slope going north vs south on my trip, in total, that it accounts for the difference, too.

I cant' tell by any equipment I have, unless there is an app for older android phones that doesnt' require phone or internet access to work, that will use whatever sensor the phone has for tilt sensing, and note all slope changes and make an average of them, too (a map trail would be nice, too, but I"d settle for the average if nothing else).

With an app like that, I could mount the old samsung Bill gave me back right after the fire on the flat cargo deck or rack, right at the rear axle line, for the least amount of shifting around as the front shock compresses and rebounds, and the rest of the trike bounces around on the potholes and such, so that it could do it's thing whiel I ride.

 

[amberwolf]

Last test run didn't work out; was "spoiled" by having to go back and forth to try to find my keys I thought I'd lost (turned out to still be in the jacket pocket, just somehow in a fold so I couldnt' feel or hear them :?).

Did find out that a 5-ish mile trip done at mostly 15MPH or less is only about 45wh/mile, though. :/

Will keep retesting for a good average on each motor in the next several days, just for curiosity. Test in last post was done accelerating with both motors, then cruising with X5304. Will do another couple of those, then do the next three with the 2807.


Today I did a few minor repairs and adjustments, the only noteworthy ones being re-"blocking" the left inner axle, remounting the battery boxes, and tightening up the headset.

Remounting was necessary, becuase I have put it off too long already, and the cabling coming out of the corner of each box is exposed at the outer edge of the trike the way they were, just begging for an accident that shorts them together. :/ THey had been perpendicular to the length of the bike, with the cabled ends outward to the right.

So I removed them, and put them back parallel to the length of the bike, with the cabled ends toward the back, so the wires are all just above the crossbrace tube tha runs from the front of each fender to the rear of the seatstays. That will protect the cabling much better in the event of anything that contacts or scrapes the battery boxes.

I still need to build a battery box tray that will hold them both securely, or just one if the other is not present for whatever reason. For nwo they are strapped to the frame securely so thye have no wiggle; a pair of wood blocks between pack and cetner frame keep the straps from pulling the inner box into the chain.
View attachment 4

View attachment 2

The headset has looseneed a bit from braking on the uneven road surfaces and the skid/grab/skid due to insufficient wieght on the front tire when I have Tiny in the back or the trailer attached.

Part of the issue is also that the fork is old and worn, and the lowers wiggle quite a bit over the upper tubes. I have a solution for that, but I have to build the new front suspension and that's gonna take some working out the design first, which I havent' done any of.

But anyway it causes some of that skid/grab/skid and that wiggles the whole fork and steerer, which works on loosening the headset over time.

I figured it'd be a two-minute fix, and it would've been, except I found I'd made a design mistake, and blocked the lower clamping screw of the stem with the bracket that holds the headlight and turn signals.

So I had to drill a hole in the bracket to get the allen wrench to the bolt to loosen and hten retigthen the stem.

Now that wiggle is gone, and only left with the one from the fork lowers itself.



Then there was fixing th eleft rear inner axle, which Iv'e posted before that it doens't have an inner nut or clamp, so I use a wood block to hold it in place. Unfotunatley the last one disintegrated at some point, probably on a stretch of potholey or ripply-asphalt intersection, as they can be bad enough to actually bounce the whole trike off the road surface repeatedly.

This was pretty easy, and done a bit differently from last time. Before, I hammered in the block from below, this time I shaped the ends of the block with indentations for the axle adn the frame tube in front of it, and forced it in from the in-side instead. It was harder to get it in there, and so it ought to be harder to get it out by accident/vibration/etc.

We'll see if it lasts long enough for me to get to my next vacation that hpefully will see enough time to make the clamping dropouts on the left inner side and torque plates welded tot he axles of both outer sides, then trimming off the leftover outer axle bits for better doorway clearance.

 

[amberwolf]

Today's test still same type of results as before; 61wh/m to work, 47.8wh/m home.

Avg speed about 1mph less on way home vs work, still don't know if that could account for it.

56.3vrest
2.161m
2.39ah
128.24wh
61wh/m
0regen
-7.27amin
77.4amax49.3vmin
20.2mph mx
15.5avg
8m20s


56.3vrest
2.318m
2.019ah
109.21wh
47.8wh/m
0regen
-11.6amin
77.55amax
49.7vmin
20.1mph mx
14.4mph avg
9m39s


Oh, and jsut as I was leaving work, I'd gunned it to try to make the suddenly-green light at Peoria on 28th Ave, hitting almost 20MPH really quick, as I was still curving around from the driveway at work to the travel lane (almost completley into the far right lane), when with about 5-7 car lengths to go (I'm not totally sure now) the light changed to yellow then red really fast (like less than a second for yellow!); it was very weird, especially since it then took almost a minute for any other direction to go green. I think something went wrong with the traffic control system? Normally I would have easily made that light, as it stays green for several seconds even when there is no traffic waiting at the sensor on the southbound lanes (where I was headed).


Anyway, I hit the brakes enough to begin stopping me, front wheel only, but knew that would slip cuz the surface there is uneven, with slick and rough surfaces of varying heights, waves, holes, cracks, etc, and was ready with the electric braking on the rear wheels too.

But when I hit the ebrake at the instant I felt the front start to slip, only the right one had much drag, on the X5304, and the whole trike just started sliding rightward in the lane toward the curb, while still going forward. I turned slightly into the slide and got control back as I let go the front brake and kept the ebrakes, and ended up parked right at the first crosswalk line, but at the righthand edge of the lane with my right rear tire almost touching the curb.

That was pretty close. :/

I don't know if the left wheel just didn't get any traction cuz of the road surface, or the wetness (cuz it's been raining on and off since last night), or a problem where it simply didn't activate it's braking, or what.

If it's the latter, then it should be easy to test for if it's not intermittent, as it should brake that wheel actively when I run it offground and ebrake it.

Either way, that's where that peak of Amin -11A probably comes from, as it was the longest I have ever done the active ebraking for (normally I'd be sitting at a complete stop well before holding it that long)

 

[amberwolf]

I forgot to note down the info today at work for the trip there, and also forgot the charger, so didn't note down the data for the trip.

I do recall that it was around 57wh/mile for the trip to work, and around 51wh/mile for the trip home, everything else being about the same between the trips, as before, though this time using primarily the left motor (9C 2807) rather than the right (x5304); accelerating up to speed being done with both.

It was also nearly dry on the way to work, and hardly had to stop at any traffic controls, but raining heavily on teh way home, and as usual with rain just starting, were lots of stupid people out there (pedestrians, drivers, etc) that all suddenly were in a huge hurry to get somewhere, and doing dumb things like running red lights or accelerating up as they turned yellow to make sure they got thru before red, etc., so I was stopping even at newly-green lights because I didnt' trust those still "slowing" for the red light on the street I'd be crossing.

A few times, that was a really good idea, cuz I'd've probably been hit by a red-light runner if I hadn't. I also kept my eye out anytime I saw cars heading towards a driveway I was about to cross, so I could more likely be able to brake at least somewhat in time if they did pull out; but with the rain I didn't really expect to be able to if they did so at the last moment.

Once I had to gun it cuz just as I reached the start of the driveway the car there suddenly started to go, and I coudln't have braked in time, so accelerating out of their way and moving somewhat leftward away from the driveway towards the left lane of the road was my only option. Swerving would just ahve skidded me, in the rain with the very wet roadsurface. That was a very close call, and if I did not have the power I do on the trike, or if I had had more of a load (like Tiny) in the back, I would not have been able to avoid a collision, or a separate crash if I'd tried to swerve (I probably would still have collided, rolling the trike on it's side instead of head-on).


It was a little funny about the rain; it was expected to start raining sometime tonight, and probably off and on thru the night, but up to that point, it'd been relatively clear overhead, and pavement had dried out. Had even been sunny a fair bit thru the day itself.

But heavy sprinkling suddenly started *just* as I was getting the trike out the door of work, literally as we were locking up. I had to stop to put on my rain gear before taking off, as I hadn't bothered yet because of the conditions before that.


It's still raining out there right now, a steady drizzle that has gotten heavier now and then, ever since a short time after I got home. Before that it had been pretty heavy, starting from not long after I started on my way home, but that only lasted about 15-20 minutes or so--enough to make the righthand half of the outer lane (both directions) of my route home just one big long puddle about as wide as a car, except for right at the few drains, by the time I was about halfway home, getting worse from there. At home the intersection in front of the house was completely covered in water, until a few minutes after the heavy rain slowed to the drizzle. Now it's back down to the usual half-the-street mark.


So far nothing's had any problems on teh trike from teh water that I'm aware of. Even my front rim brakes, thoroughly wet in the puddles, still grab plenty hard enough to lockup the wheel and skid on the wet roads, using hte Koolstop pads and the stiffener arch (cuz the fork itself would flex more without that, and probably not grab very well).

 

[amberwolf]

Wh/mile last couple days has been right at 50Wh/mile average for work commute (including both directions). Is a bit lower than usual, but no change in anything to account for it, that I can determine.


Need to take the kennel off and see what the Wh/mile goes to without it's drag.


Ideally, I'd like to get the Wh/mile down to something closer to what CrazyBIke2's is, typically 30-ish Wh/mile depending on conditions/load, or even less down into the mid-low 20's if I don't have to do lots of starts and stops.

Then I could be more sure of longrange trips without a recharge at the other end.

Presently, at a guesstimate of maybe 50V average loaded pack voltage and maybe 15Ah usable, on the EIG pack, I'd have 750Wh total usable in it.

If it takes 60Wh/mile to run the trike, then that's only about 12.5 miles.

If it only takes 50Wh/mile, I get another 2.5 miles out if it.

If I could get it down to 30Wh/mile, I could get 25 miles.

I doubt I can get it that low, though, partly due to weight and rolling resistance (3 wheels vs 2, and 2 of them small diameter vs one of each), and partly due to aerodynamics.


Well, I *could* fix some of the aero, but probably not while carrying much of my typical cargo (defniitely not with the kennel on there, unless I add a tailsock that sticks way way out the back :lol.

Lowering the seat position a few inches might help with the aero, especially if I can tilt it at the same time, to get me leaning back just a bit, like I can on CrazyBike2. This is not impossible, but would require reworking of the central frame, and might require reworking some parts of the tiller steering setup/handlebars. It might also require moving the BB and reworking the chainline.




The weight...taking the kennel off saves a little bit, have to measure but I would guess 15lbs?

Taking the top cargo rack off and just ahving a "flatbed pickup" cargo area would probably save 5-7lbs, at a guess--some of the weight of the rack being removed would be re-added in a mounting bar for the taillight/turnsignals, at the rear top of the seatback, or along the bottom rear edge of the cargo deck. They'd be more visible at the seatback, except if I have cargo that is taller than that (not common, but could happen--used to happen a fair bit on CrazyBIke2 with them mounted there). So probably I would want to put two mounting points for the light bar, one at each point, so I could bolt it to whichever one is best for the trip I'm on at the time.


Leaving off one of the battery packs saves 20lbs+, but also takes away more range than it preserves, especially if there are not as many stops and starts eating up range from the acceleration of all the mass.




Anywya, none of these things are going to happen anytme soon, most likely, but they are all possibilities.

 

[amberwolf]

Some definite numbers from today's work commute. I didn't write down each leg separately, though I should have.

To-work was about 50wh/mile, and combined was 48.5wh/mile, without the kennel on it.

Regular trips in my other test data seem to be around 50wh/mile combined, when I have the kennel on there. Previous to that, some notes show 46-49wh/mile typical, with the kennel but without Tiny, and more like 65wh/mile with her in it. I apparently haven't made sufficient notes on each trip, though, since installing the CA on here and getting it roughly calibrated to the external CA shunt on the trike vs the one on the bike. (need to actually do a true calibration procedure on that, but it is close enough for now, based on the Satiator's charge current report).




Today's data:

58.4vstart
55.1vrest
4.609miles
4.171Ah
222.32wh
48.5wh/mile
zero regen
-16.5amin
78.13amax
47.7vmin
20.1mph max
14.7mph avg
18m46s triptime



Pics crospostd from the Tiny's Wheelchair Project thread in today's update there, simply because they show Yogi "hiding" on the back of the trike (with Tiny "hiding" in the disassembled kennel), from the fireworks noises outside earlier tonight.

 

[amberwolf]

I didn't make it to the Electric Bike Expo out in Tempe; stuff came up, especially Yogi hurting himself somehow at the end of last week, hurting his left back leg somehow just as he turned away from finishing his noms. More on the details of taht in the Tiny's WHeelchair Project thread.

Anyway, I'd been doing the efficiency tests the last couple weeks or more because the Expo was at teh Tempe Diablo Stadium, which is about a 42-mile round trip, not counting any detours/etc. that might come up, assumign I use just the main north/south and east/west streets. I could make it a few miles shorter by using the canal path that I can access from Metrocenter, adding a half mile just to get to the path, but not all of that path is paved and some of it has no underpass for the major roads it crosses, meaning I could be waiting some time before being able to safely cross those roads.

But it'd still ahve been quite a long trip, and at 50Wh/mile or so, means needing at least 2100Wh for the round trip, which I don't have, so I would have to recharge fully at the Expo to do it; the original poster of the Expo thread in the E-vents forum said he'd make sure I could do that, so I didn't have any worries there.

If I could get the power usage down, by going a lot slower, or not taking the trike and using CrazyBike2 instead (whcih only uses 30Wh/mile or less), I could've made teh trip there and back on one charge...but for that long a trip the trike is more comfortable and easier to ride, especially since I can stop and just sit there instead of having to lean on one leg to hold it up, or let it rest on a pod and then have to push it back upright.

But even just half the distance takes more wh than I would be certain to get from either pack by itself, so I'd need to tkae them both anyway.



Anyway...I did make a store trip today, and on the way to Fry's (a teeny bit further than work), it took the same 50Wh/mile it does for work's trip. But it took 56Wh/mile to get home, with 3 coolers full of groceries plus some boxes under them between the fenders--a completely full grocery cart worth of stuff (more than I would normally have, since I was shopping for both me and Raine). I forgot to measure the weight of the stuff, but I'd guess it was at least 75lbs of stuff, so nearly what Tiny weighed when she was at the tail end of her December illness, before she started gaining it back.


I'm sure a fair bit of that power is from the extra weight since there's lots of stops and starts, but I do wonder how much of it is changes in aerodynamics. And whether it actually is *more* aero with the boxes that way, vs the empty bed...that I wouldhave to test by using the same configuration on one trip, but nothing in the coolers,then take them off, and redo the same trip, and see what the wh/mile is on each.

Might do that for my work commute this week.

 

[amberwolf]

Today's numbers are just wierd. I think I must have a problem with friction somewhere (bearings?), that most of the time adds a significant drag to a wheel or something, and sometimes doesn't, and sometimes gets even worse.

On teh way to work I used only 48Wh/mile, same riding style as usual.

On the way home, I only used 41Wh/mile, again same route/riding/etc as usual.


I went back thru recent weeks' posts, and got a few sets of numbers, for work-home wh/mile:
50-48
57-51
61-48
56-46
65-52
vs today's
48-41
and another posts' mention of between 46 to 49wh/mile average for the whole commute.

I think that is all of the data I have posted from having the CA on there, and I don't know where the papers are that I jotted the stuff down on originally (probably are gone; I stopped saving stuff after I post it, but I don't always get it all posted, apparently).

I've been taking pics with the celphone of the CA screen, for the tests I was doing with the left vs right motor usage, and then for the work vs home legs of the commute, but those show nothing different than what's posted above--a general trend that the ride home is notably, sometimes significantly, lower than the ride to work, and that the Wh/mile varies a fair bit for reasons I havent' figured out yet.

It isn't wind, or temperature, AFAICT; there's been virtually no wind or breeze on any of my rides most of the time.

Can't be ground conditions, as those are not changing back and forth over time, either. Can't be tire pressure, as if anything the tire pressure would be consistently dropping over time, causing worse and worse Wh/mile, whereas today's was very much less than it has been.

Even if temperatures are affecting the tire pressure, it wouldn't do it in the way I'm seeing it, as it's colder on my ride home than on my ride to work, so would have lower pressure and worse wh/mile, but it doesn't.

So there just about *has* to be some sort of friction issue, and that means something is changing positions without me knowing about it.

Now, it's possible the 9C on the left rear is moving around, causing pressure / load changes on it's bearings, and causing more or less friction there. If I ever get to make the clamping mounts for that axle like I did for the right side wheel, it'll fix that.

It's also possible the front wheel isn't perfectly tight with it's QR skewer, and causes the (useless) crappy disc brake to rub on it's pads. I'll have to check the skewer and also the locknuts between the dropouts and make sure there's no play there.

Unlikely, but also possbile it causes it to rub the rim on those pads, but I have checked those a few times and seen nothing...and as the pads wear I would expect the wh/mile to drop, on average, and that doesn't happen either.


So I dunno...

 

[amberwolf]

Last couple days I let it run down without charging, and have seen a drop in wh/mile each day, 46wh/mile, then 42wh/mile today. I expect that is because I don't get as high a peak of wattage during acceleration, with the voltage being lower and lower.

I've also watched the wh/mile readout as I rode, rather than the main screen, and it steadily drops on all the long cruising sections, then very rapidly goes up during accelerations from a stop, which was expected, but somehow I didn't expect to see it go up so fast.

For instance, I started out from zeroed state when I left work, accelerated out of the parking lot to the traffic light, and had about 25wh/mile at that point, stopped at the light. Just crossing the light brougth it up to almsot 38wh/mile, dropping to about 32wh/mile by the time i had to stop again at Cheryl, having made the green light between them. Goes up to 43wh/mile crossing that intersection, then down to 34wh/mile by the time I have to stop again, at the exit of the parking lot just north of Dunlap. Up again to 38wh/mile just crossing Dunlap halfway, then 42wh/mile the rest of the way. Back down to 38wh/mile by the time I get to the next stop, then back up to 45wh/mile getting up to speed on 29th, then down to 38 again by the time I get to the last stop. Up to 48wh/mile across that, down to 42wh/mile as I pull up to the front door of the house.


So on a long trip with few stops, I'd probably be able to keep it down to the mid-30s wh/mile, possibly the low 40s, depending on conditions.




Separate from all that, I had an interesting encounter on Sunday wen I went to the store; a guy in a car followed me for what seemed like about a mile (not exactly sure when he started), just to catch up and take pictures.


On another trip, there was also a police SUV with someone in the back (lockup) area, who had a celphone with a camera and "flash", taking pictures as they passed me, and I saw the person rap on the divider, presumably telling the driver to slow down so they could get better pics, because that's what they did, pacing me for a bit whiel the "flash" brightened and dimmed repeatedly, then they accelerated and continued on, without the driver or righthand officer either one looking in my direction even once. Kinda strange. :?

 

[amberwolf]

Now I have a "trunk":




Courtesy of goodwill for 5bucks; a Samsonite Silhouette4, it even had the key in it. It has wheels and a retractable towhandle, though I'm considering removing those to save just a bit of weight, as it is 15lbs empty. :/


Oddly, it fits almost perfectly in the space on the rack, needing only a tiny notch in each wheel to let it sit flat on the rack, and already fits snugly between the front of hte rack and the lighting bar on he back..


But it appears to be very water resistant, so it will do well enough in the infrequent rains, better than the Lockerbag SS I have been using there when carrying Tiny in the crate on the cargo bed, and using on hte cargobed when not using the crate. And it has a waterproof zipper bag inside it, so if I either have to carry liquids or lunches or whatever taht I don't want to get on anything else in there should their container fail, I can put them in that.


View attachment 1
It's also significantly larger, and easy to bolt down to make it a little bit secure--the lockerbag I have to take in with me when I go places, if I want any security at all. The Samsonite is a hard shell, and though the locks are not great, they're there, and will keep honest people honest, and if I want more security I have the option of putting a padlock hasp on there that would add a few seconds more security.


I would like to paint it to match the trike, so I'll need to find the cheapest white primer and red paint I can.

Gotta dig out the metal reinforcement plates and bolts to secure it to the rack. Might actually weld some nuts to the rack itself, and then bolt it from inside the case to the rack. Bit more secure as it can't be removed without opening it first.


Bad part about it being up there is that it raises the COG, but it is out of the way of using the cargo bed, at least.

I could also put it on the cargobed, but it would have to go vertical and only fit lengthwise instead of side-toside across the bed. Or across the tops of the fenders. It's much easier to use up on top of the rack.


It also looks better there, and it also looks better than any of the other solutions I have for this. Once painted to match it ought to look a lot less DIY than my other solutions.

NOrmally that wouldn't matter, but this trike is getting more attention than other vehicles I use, party cuz of the dogs, and maybe there is a chance that if I can do it well enough, I can either convince some people to start using ebikes or etrikes, or perhaps even get a customer or two that can afford to have me make them a custom trike or whatever, with the understanding that I am not an expert at any of this stuff.

 

[docnjoj]

You have credentials for your expertise in electronics, and skills in the other fabrication areas. Please don't sell yourself short!
otherDoc

 

[DAND214]

You have credentials for your expertise in electronics, and skills in the other fabrication areas. Please don't sell yourself short!
otherDoc

+1
I'm with you Doc.

Dan

 

[amberwolf]

Well, thank you, but I'm far from what I'd consider an expert; though I have a fair bit of experience in a few fields, it's pretty haphazard. I suppose compared to the average person I would seem like an expert in those fields, but there's way better people than me at all of them.



Alrighty then, onto the technical stuff.

Back here, about 3/4 of a year ago, I did a rundown test of the EIG pack to 19.93Ah out of the original 20Ah it should've been capable of.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12500&p=1066198


Today, I finished an all-week rundown test, getting *almost* to work (same point as at the previous test) before changing over to the A123 pack, to prevent potential damage to the EIG pack. I only had a few seconds to change over, because I had to unplug the EIG and plug in the A123, while waiting for the red light to change to green with cars in front and behind me, right across the street to work. I could've made it to work but I'd've had to slowly slowly accelerate, which would've pissed off the cars behind me, so the switchover was a better idea.


Anyway, other than a couple tenths of an Ah the stats below are all from the EIG pack from my last 5 days of work commute, 9 segments of the commute (5 to-work, 4 home).

I apparently missed the first screen when I took pics, so I don't have the "actual" mileage. So around 2.4 miles each segment, times 9, gives 21.6 miles total.

58.3vstart
40.2vrest
19.4ah
954wh
39.3vmin
86.17amax
-22.2amin
20.6mph max
14.7mph avg
1h22m10s triptime

On CrazyBike2, the range was greater, of course, since wh/mile is much lower on that, but the Ah available hasn't changed much since that last test.


So, at least 20 miles good range, plus the last mile and a half if I *had* to, using hte trike on the EIG pack, and tha't siwth a lot of stops and starts.


Then here's the stats for the trip home, on the A123 pack instead
2.436miles
2.098ah
53.1vrest
53.8vstart
107wh
44.1wh/mi
-13.8amin
77.73amax
47.4vmin
20.6mph max
13.5mph avg
10m49s triptime



BTW, as I pulle dinot the parking lot at work, I pulled over to take pics of teh CA screen in the sunlight so I could note the info down later, and a man pulled up next to me in his truck to take a better look at the trike, saying how interesting/cool/etc it is (I can't remember his exact words but he was pretty fascinated with it). We talked for a minute, but I had to get into work, so couldn't stay and talk like I would have if I could.

Iv'e had several people that interested in the trike recently; to follow me to a stop and then talk, take pics, etc. And the one asking if I woudl sell it....


Maybe I should work out how to build another, including what it would cost for "new" motors and batteries and controllers and stuff, and see if anyone is actually interested in paying that much for one.

 

[DAND214]

See AW, you do have a skill.

Would you really want to know what it would cost to build a new one? Scary amount,, I would guess. It has always been a lot more than I had figured.

Dan

 

[amberwolf]

I figured it up for CrazyBike2 once, with the old powerchair drivetrain, using a "used" average ebay price for the powerchair motor it had, and new SLA (what I was using at the time) and a Curtis controller, and I think I came up with $5000+, if I paid myself $10/hour to do the work, knowing more or less what I was doing already so no experimentation would be needed, and building it "from scratch" rather than from a bunch of assorted bike frames and bits, buying the bike parts I'd need from an LBS new).

(while what I actually put into it was probably a couple of hundred dollars mostly in welding and cutting/grinding/etc supplies, not counting the cost of the tools themselves, and a few bits and bobs from goodwill and yardsales, the rest having been free as finds or donations to the project. That cost has gone up significantly in the years since, with upgrades, but it's still pretty cheap compared to what a car would've cost me just in consumables, much less hardware investment!).


I haven't yet attempted to completely enumerate what SB Cruiser cost so far, but it is definitely more expensive. I count the cost of the used A123 battery in it, as that's more or less dedicated to the trike (though I'm using both packs on it right now), and that's the most expensive single thing I have on a bike right now. I also have the spokes for the rear wheels, and some other bits that werent' cheap to add in there.

 

[DAND214]

AW said:
Maybe I should work out how to build another, including what it would cost for "new" motors and batteries and controllers and stuff, and see if anyone is actually interested in paying that much for one.

I thought you wanted to know what it would cost to build a new one. Not what it cost to biild with what you had.

It's so hard to tell someone looking at it, what it cost to build. What I paid for what I didn't have or what it would cost to replace it. I just start adding the big ticket items and I am over than what I had figured the total was!

Dan

 

[amberwolf]

I thought you wanted to know what it would cost to build a new one. Not what it cost to biild with what you had.

I do; I was just rambling (as usual) about stuff that was semi-related.

It's so hard to tell someone looking at it, what it cost to build. What I paid for what I didn't have or what it would cost to replace it. I just start adding the big ticket items and I am over than what I had figured the total was!

Yeah, I know how that goes. If I didn't try so hard to use recycled materials most of my projects would be pretty expensive.


Speaking of expensive, I can add the cost of another pair of tires to it. And a tube, though I can patch that, after I add the cost of some rubber cement to it. :/


Last week, after getting wary of the amount of wear on the tires (some threads showing), I pulled out my spare pair of tires from Skedgy Sky to change them out, but I havent' been able to get to it when I was physically capable of it.

The plan was to do it today, on a day off, but I ended up getting some extra hours at work so it wasnt' a complete day off. Was so tired as usual I didn't get up till the dogs got me up for breakfast, and then it was time for lunch with Bill (when we also got some cheap paint for the trike)...when I got back from that it was time to go in to work, and I'd run out of time to change the tires.

I meant to take them with me so I could change them before leaving work (since I wouldnt' be closing, there'd be time before the store was locked up for the night, for me to do it in the breakroom). But I got in a hurry, and forgot. :/

I also forgot to actually LOOK at the tires to be sure they'd make it to work, as I'd seen they were very threadbare before leaving work yesterday, and hadn't checked them after getting home.

So, of course, *almost* to work, the right rear tire blew...or rather, the tube that had herniated out the fingernail-sized hole worn in the tire casing blew, becuase it too had now worn thru. :/

I slowed down, and got off the road into a parking lot, where I called work to say I'd be later than expected due to a flat, and I changed it out for my spare tube, putting some thick plastic bags I had with me between the tube and the hole in the tire. I didn't air it up more than 15-20PSI, cuz that keeps the tube from herniating out the hole, but still keeps the rim from cutting thru the tire and tube if I don't hit any bumps / holes very hard.

Then I crept along at 5-10MPH (to keep impacts to a minimum) to get to work, not using the mtoor in the left wheel to reduce scrubbing of the tire and tube.

There were also three other spots I could see ready to fail in the threadbare tread, so tried to be gentle on those too.

The left tire had already herniated severely, but it still had the "inner tire", an old carcass from the Kenda Flame tires I used to use on the original DGA trailer, so not as big a worry yet about that one failing completely.

Checked the hole for wear in the bags before crossing Peoria, and found that in only a few dozen yards it had already worn thru them completely.

Made it to work, did stuff there, then a couple hours later when I was done I stayed int eh breakroom and put some cardboard and plastic between the tube and the hole, and also between the tube and the other worn areas, just in case.

This didn't last even out of the parkng lot, so I basically just ended up creeping home really slow, and again avoiding use of the right side motor.

I kept thinking I should stop and deflate the tube, force the tire around a bit to move the hole relative to the tube, then re-air it up, but I kept having that thought right about when traffic got heavy, or when suspicious/creepy people were on the sidewalks, etc., and I didn't think it safe in either condition, then I'd forget, for a while each time. :/

Made it home anyway, and there is some wear on the tube, but not all the way thru, so it's still perfectly usable, just not as thick as it was at that spot.

So tomorrow, I'll get the tires changed, the "trunk" painted, and I hope some of the wiring stuff I've been putting off. Maybe Ill get some of the other stuff done too, if I'm lucky.

 

[amberwolf]

Well, I got the trunk painted and the tires changed....

(and some of the trailer painted, here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=186463)

Old tires, and pics of the damage to the tubes.

Tires still on trike, right side first
View attachment 24
View attachment 23


then the left side





Holes and wear in the tires. right side first



then left

View attachment 14

View attachment 12


First is the blown tube, not much damage just worn in a fingernail-sized spot, at it's center deep enough that it just herniated out and burst once it reached a couple millimeters thickness left.



Then the damaged but usable tube:
View attachment 26



The cardboard I used to try to protect the tube...



The left side tube



"New" tires, CST knobbies (dont' want knobbies but at least they were really cheap, and will last until I find more, hopefully.


Knobby bits rub on frame a bit sometimes, depneding on load and turning (sideload on wheel), etc.


I redid the torque arms (wrenches) on the left wheel, to tide it over until I get the time (a few days off in a row) to cut off the old dropouts and build new ones and weld them on. The wood blocks I used to hold the inner axle in place keep disintegrating so had to use a wrench clamped down to hold it for now.
View attachment 7






Trunk is now painted, left the top white to reflect more sunlight, keep it a tad cooler in the summer. It is insulated with dense styrofoam inside too, under it's cloth liners. Left the area between the clamshell halves the gray-black it was, partly cuz the paint there would just wear off, and partly for contrast to the red, for visiblity. I'll probably put some reflective stuff there later.




It's gonna sit outside overnight, to let fumes dissipate, and then remount it on the trike's rack tomorrow before work.

It's gonna rain tonight, probably heavily, so it'll also get it's first water-resistance test, sitting out there on the table by the porch.




.

 

[amberwolf]

I found the load limit for the top cargo rack:


Without the kennel-crate or other full cooler boxes crammed in there to support it from underneath, I've never had a load big enough to be an issue, but yesterday, the trunk (15lbs empty) plus a full-of-hot-tea 64oz swigsavvy, lunch plus a handful of cold packs, five tiedown straps (couple pounds each, I'd guess), thick paperback book, rain/cold gear for the night ride home (light, only a couple pounds total), etc., probably close to 30lbs, supported only by the four 1/2" square tubes (thinwall).




Well, I built the rack originally to just go around the crate to hold stuff while the crate was on it, and kinda meant to come off when the crate wasnt' on it, though it didnt' end up working that way cuz the lights bar on the back never did get rebuilt to be separable. :/


So the supports were also meant to go around hte crate, and don't give the best support angle for it. They also didnt' get welded completely at the cut/bends, they were only welded where they connect to the rack and at the inner elbow, not hte sides of the elbow.


So the wiggling of the rack back and forth with turns, potholes/bumps, etc., it cracked along the bend line at the outer elbow, and then tore the metal along the corners, outside the welds. The welds themselves are intact, but the metal around them tore cuz it was thinner than the weld. :/


The left side didn't actually break yet, but it's bent and on it's way after the right side failed.











To fix this, I'll probably add supports at the rear corners of the rack down to the rear corners of the cargo bed, so that in future if I have to operate the trike without the crate but with a heavy load on the rack it isn't going to be loaded in the same way, and less likely to fail.

I can't add the cross-support triangulation that would fix this because they would have to go where the crate has to fit. I considered cable supports instead, like the wing-tension supports on a biplane, but it's extra complication and I don't presently have the parts to do it. (I have cable that would work, and can make eyes to pass it thru, but no tensioners; I'd have to make those too).


For now, I just put the crate back in it, and tied those two rack supports to it with solid core house wiring twisted tight. The crate fits very tightly in there so it will take the load off the supports.





I was going to put the trunk on the bed but there's nowhere it will fit flat, except behind the fenders, which puts the whole load way behind the wheels. Looks interesting, though, and I'll have to get a pic of it when I am fixing the rack permanently later.

 

[DAND214]

So AW, your welds are stronger than the metal. That's how it's supposed to work.

I have read this whole post from the start, but can't remember if you ever really checked the TOE-IN of the wheels. The way you wear out tires it seems like it's way out of toe. I know it wears real bad on those high speed turns you take but is only that?

Dan

 

[amberwolf]

I don't know that it is stated anywhere, but AFAICT from various checks the rear wheels are parallel to the length of the frame, with no toe in or out.

There should be no scrubbing except in turns. (unlike with Delta Tripper, which was all weebly-wonky and haphazardly built).

There probably is *some* slight unparallelness, but I can't tell if there is.

So, while I can't be *certain*, I'm pretty sure the tire wear is caused by my exuberant turning.

There *is* camber, though that's not on purpose, caused in this latest tire change when I remounted the lft wheel differently than before. The right one has a teeny bit too.

On another note, I'm thinking that I'm going to remove the whole rack and rebuild it, using the 1" square tube for the verticals, andputting them at the four corners of it, rather than at the front corners and then the middle. (which I'd done because that's where th fender ends, and it was "easier" to do that way, I think, at the time). Then make the detachable lighting bar to bolt to the back of it, along with the SMV sign (just above the lights), so it can also be bolted to the lower cargo deck, or back fo the seat, etc.


I'll hope to do it this weekend; unlikley I'll get it before then.

Next weekend I've got an extra day of work at the store I worked at a couple months or more back, and hopefully I'll have the tire rubbing problem fixed before then, too.

I thought I had it fixed today, with a block fastened under (above, actually) the inner left axle to force the top of the wheel inward to keep it away from the frame. But after a couple of turns, even though I slwoed for them, the sideloading wiggled the axle away from the block anyway. :/ I'll basically need to build the clamping dropout to really fix it, just like on the right side. Have to re-locate the pieces for that first, as I have moved them somewhere from where they were on the project bench. :/ Got another idea for a temporary measure to try tomorrow if I can, though.

The right side I just need to get the axle clamped in the correct spot; I wasnt' careful when I tightneed it down and didn't check for verticality / camber before I did that; it's just the clamping nut/bolt to undo, realighn wheel, and retighten, but I ahvent' gotten that far yet.

 

[amberwolf]

Rack, before removal:





View attachment 14

I got the rack and supports off, and took the wiring and lights off the rack. I also took off the fender covers, and started cutting into the fender metal frame and left side dropouts, so that I can do all this metalwork at the same time.







On the fender frames, I am widening them at the top so that when I use wider tires (like these knobbies, and later moped tires, if I ever get any), I wont' have to worry about the rubbing on the sides. It'll also mean I can use larger diameter tires (fatter ones) without rubbing on the inner side fo the top of the fenders.







So I cut the top front and rear connecting bars out of the fenders, so I can move the outer top edge of each one outward a bit, to give a little more space in there. Same for the inner top edges, going inward, but those I can't move as much or they'll interfere with the kennel/crate.



The rack supports are going to go pickup-truck-bed-style down into the fender front edge, rather than sticking up like before, and down into the rear outer corners of the bed's frame. The ones on the rear edge of the fenders will simply be removed. That way the rack will be supoprted at all four corners. I'll add some triangulation at hte top of the rack's supports to the rack itself, to prevent the failure it ahd before.



The dropouts will be a bit complicated. I cant' do them just like th eright side, because I have to be able to get the chain on and tension it, but I also have to have the wheel go in vertically, and not like it does now, where it goes in vertical and then turns horizontal (for the axle flats).










So I need to make the inner (clamping) dropout able to slide on the frame, meaning it will need to bolt on rather than be welded on. It'll have to be welded to a plate that then bolts thru slots on it, to the frame.

It's not too hard to do, but it is more complicated.

If it werent' for the wires that go thru the axle, I'd weld a mounting arm/plate to the axle itself, and then have that do the bolting to a plate on the frame via slots.

The outer axle end *will* be done that way, partly so I can shorten the axle that 1/2" or more, eliminating the nut and wrenches and stuff there. If I have time I'll do the outer axle end of the x5304 the same way, on the right side wheel.


The only problem at the moment is I can't find the pieces I intended to use for all this, so I may have to make them all out of other material that's less conveniently shaped/sized, that I did run across while looking for the original set of stuff I'd put aside for it, months ago.




The lighting bar is going to be differently designed than it was before.

First, instead of a single taillight (that is actually a hitch tube cover off a truck), I'll have a twin pair of them, using the shells of the old incandescent Honda motorcycle/moped taillights that I'd previously used on CrazyBike2 and Delta Tripper. They will mount toward the outer edges, next to the turn signals.

I'd already ripped out (and lost) the guts of one of them, years back, when I converted it to use a CFL bulb for CrazyBike2. So no easy way to just put incandescents in there; converting to LED is pretty much the only good option.

I didn't have any easy LED options either, so I thought, until I remembered the "junk" LED strips someone gave me, which run in 3-LED strips off of 12V. I had five of them the same, and one different type, but still basically teh same brightness/spacing, so that means 3 strips (9 LEDs) per taillight.

They're white LEDs, so a lot of their brightness will be wasted thru the red plastic lenses, but they're still significantly brighter thant he incandescents originally used in these.

The covers of the lights are red on all sides except the bottom, as they were meant to light up the license plate of the moped or motorcycle they were originally from. That's handy, cuz I'd like the white downlighting from the white LEDs that will now be inside to light up the rear of the trike and the road, too.

The cases of the Honda taillights have a recess that I thought would be great to insert the strips into, but they are *just* not quite big enough to accommodate 3 strips. I used a 3/8" thick strip of styrofoam to fill them with, and glued that down, so ti also acts as a moisture barrier to help protect the LEDs (as theya re not waterproof by any means).

I cleaned off the broken plastic covers of the 5 same-type strips, and gorilla-glued them to the styrofoam. They are all wired in parallel. I still have to run the wire for them out of the case after the glue hardens, probably tomorrow.

They're made for 12v, so to get tail and brake lights I will use a 12V wallwart powered from the traction pack, and a diode in series with it's output to protect it, as the brake switch will inject 15V into that from a different wallwart.

Or, I will just use the 15V wallwart, and a series of diodes to drop the voltage to 12V, and use the brake switch to just short the diodes out to bring 15V for brake lights to them.

If I do the latter, I can also use a plug to switch between that wallwart and my 16V lighting pack battery, so that if my main pack drops below the voltage the wallwart needs to run or start, I can still have lights.

Turn signals are still incandescent, so they will still run off the lighting pack; the wallwart can't handle that much load especially while blinking them. I have LEDs somewhere to replace two of them with, though I have to take the bases off some broken bulbs to glue to the LEDs and put them in the incandescent holders, so I don't have to modify the casings of the turn signals.


I'm also going to keep the hitch-cover light, as just a brake light, so it will only be lit during braking, if I can figure out how to do it without using a relay or complicated diode logic. Otherwise it'll be a center tail/brake light. It'll be mounted in the center of the lighting bar.


I'll also keep the Grin Tech 8LED bicycle taillight, since that can run off a wide voltage range and run from either lighting pack or traction pack, and is waterproof, so if all else fails I still have that as a fallback (as I also have the Grin Tech 9LED bicycle headlight wired in up front, though I don't normally have it on as the car/scooter headlight is sufficient, along with the downlighting on the frame).




Since I've managed to break the plastic mounting brackets off the leftside front turn signal twice now, I will proabbly replace them with the metal ones that look like my rear ones, but are actually a set with the ones off the trailer (which I converted to LED). They're still incandescent, but tougher than the presetn plastic ones on the trike front right now.


That's probably all I'm gonna get done this weekend, and that only if I"m lucky.

 

[amberwolf]

I wired up the LED strips within the housing, though haven't got the wires run out of the case yet. I also got the interior of the back casing painted white to make the light more even and a little brighter (orignally it was all black inside, except the clear lens itself, and the metal reflector the now-removed incandescent bulb holder had on it).

The pics below show each one unlit and then lit, with and without the casing on it. Some of the pics are with flash, some without; you can see a bit of how bright the lights are by the ones with the flash and the lights.






Without lflash



with flash

View attachment 6


with flash




without flash






with flash




power usage at 12v is about 0.1A



power usage at 15v is about 0.2A

 

[amberwolf]

I didnt' get everything done, not nearly. I did get most of the left rear dropout rebuilt, so now it's way easier to take the wheel off and put it on, and it's not gonna rock backa nd forth in the slim little dropouts the trike kit came with.

I couldn't find all the bits (mostly longer thick bolts and washers for them; I had the bolts but not nuts for them) that I needed to make the sliding part, so I ended up going with something much simpler--a diagonal dropout that still lets me put the wheel in from the bottom(front), and then push it up and back to tension the chain, and get it into the top of the dropout.








I built the clamp the same way as the right side, just mounted it diagonally instead of vertically.






Then I also mounted the thick dropout for the outer axle diagonally, but also still made the same way the rigth side was.

After that, I cut off the outer (right) axle end of the 9C, and welded an ex-BMX dropout to the remainder of the axle, as a mounting plate. Eventually, if I can find my tap-and-die set, I will drill into that plate and the dropout plate behind it, and then tap threads into the dropout plate for a couple of small bolts to go thru it, to secure them together. For now the weight of the trike and the clamping dropout on the inner axle are what is holding the wheel on. I might put a hose clamp over it to hold it together for now.

I didnt' get the same done to the outer axle end of the x5304, though; not enough time. It still has the nut on it, but the threads on the axle are stripped some so it isnt' really holding it in place.



The rack is only 1/4 finished, if that, so for my work comute tomorrow i cargo-strapped it down to the kennel-crate. the trunk is bolted to the rack as before.


the light bar is still in progress, a temporary configuration is bolted to the back fo the rack for tommorrows commute.



i keep dozing off so i ahve to post rhea rest tomorrow.

 

[amberwolf]

Tacked the dropout in place, after fiddlign with it with the wheel in it for quite a little while, trimming bits off the trike frame to leave the right shaped "hole" for it in the right position.

View attachment 17


The dropout by itself, before this:

View attachment 20




More fully welded, before adding "filler" pieces to the gaps to more securely hold it to the frame against side loads and whatnot.


With the wheel in it, bolt tightned for clamping. I spot welded the bolt head to the dropout, so it only takes the one wrench to do or undo it. I'd left it completely free on the right wheel, but that was a PITA to deal with so I welded the head on that one too.


Then off to the outer dropout; first step was cutting away the rest of the old dropout, and a bit of the connecting frame, so the new one can be welded into place. I only had to do that because of hte diagonal orientation; if it had been vertical I would've done it just like the righthand side and not needed to do that. The first two pics are before the cutaway, the latter two are with the new plate welded to teh axle as well as the new dropout installed--I guess I missed taking a pic of it without the plate. :/


View attachment 11
View attachment 10


At present, after my modifications to the fender frames/etc., both wheels have a little bit of camber (I don't know how many degrees). You can see it in the pics from behind, below. Note you will see misalighnment of the fender frames, and gaps in them at the top; I hadn't finished working on those yet hwen taking these pics. (I actually need to go back and redo the frames for symmetry but I probably wont'; they look crappy but they are strong enough).








THen we all had to take a break for a while, as I was forcibly reminded by my body that I had not rememberd to eat antyhign all day long, even when I got TIny and Yogi their breakfast.


Tired doggies...Tiny getting on the couch is usually her asking for icecubes/water, or dinner (nowhere near time for that in this pic). Yogi laying next to her means he thinks he's attention-starved and wants tummy rubs while she gets her icecubes.


They were running around all day at all the kids and poeple going thru the neighborhood. I don't know what was going on but therewere LOTS of cars parking around my house and then people getting out and walking to various houses in the neighborhood; the whole area was filled with cars, all day long. No party music, so I dunno what they were all doing.

Tiny also started not feeling well, and today is sick with a 103.2F fever and her arthritis has kicked in; no sign of anythign else so maybe just the arhtritis is causing hte fever. Have a message in to see about going in to vet/etc., have to see how she does in the meantime.

When I got back to it, it was totally dark out and getting colder, and I was already wiped out, but had to at least finish the lights. I started on the rack but didn't get more than the old stuff trimmed off, and the right rear support made and installed. So I decided to just install the kennel/crate and strap the rack to it, with the trunk bolted to the rack.



Then I made the light bar and wired it up temporarily, as I need to make a new wiring harness for it (the old one was made for the old lights and positions). The first pic is the lights on with both the porch light and the flash; theyre still bright enough even with that. The second pic is no flash, just porch light (and a blurry Yogi limping past the trike to come see me).






.