The Tortoise and the Hare

JennyB

1 kW
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
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450
Location
Northern Ireland
I'm talking about mid-day charging for long-distance touring.

At present I can get two hours extra runtime from one hour charge. Ping 36v 15ah battery, 5 amp charger plus a 2.5 amp charging through the main leads - about 300 watts.Take it into a cafe and recharge while you eat, then ride 15 mph average speed at 10 watt hours per mile. This works for me because if the country is interesting I don't want to do more than 100 miles in a day anyway, which I can do comfortably with two charging stops. If I wanted to I could perhaps start with a drained battery, keep travelling through the night, and manage 240 miles in 24 hours. 8)

It seems that the existing electrical supply infrastructure is a pretty good fit for ebikes. Removing the battery gives you a lot more charging opportunities. My current setup fits in a flight bag and weighs about 8 kg. That allows me to carry a decent amount of other luggage and still have a bike I would care to pedal if the worst happened.

Given those limitations, how much faster could I go?

Travelling for two hours at 15 mph and charging for one gives me an effective speed of 10 mph. It seems that ratio is about optimal: if I were to use power at twice the rate I would need to travel at 20 mph for the same effective speed (not counting time lost in finding extra charging points). If I were to stretch to three hours I could travel at 13.3 mph, but would only have 100 watts average to do it with.

That seems to hold for any power of charger, or at least any charger that can use an ordinary 240 volt socket without blowing it. For the fastest effective speed, use energy at half the rate you put it in. Thirty to 40 miles is a reasonable distance between charge points and 20 mph is probably the highest speed I would want to average.

800+ wh battery and 600+ watt charger in under 8 kg?
Possible? :?
 
My 888wh battery weighs 6.3kg. I don't have a portable charger for it but if I was going to go on the road with it, I'd build a simple bridge rectifier circuit for it I could plug straight into a power outlet here which is 115/120V for a 1000-1500W charge current. Rough guess for that would be under .5kg. Or use one of these at 2.5kg
http://www.bmsbattery.com/alloy-shell/457-alloy-shell-900w-lifepo4li-ionlead-acid-battery-ev-charger.html
 
You should be able to charge at ~2kw from your 240vac standard outlets.

A good 1kwhr nano-tech pack would let you go from empty to fully charged in 30mins, then give you 2hrs of 500w average assist power level, followed by a 30min recharge.

Nano's are good for about 170Wh/kg, so a little under 6kg battery, leaving you a couple kg for the charger. A meanwell RPS 1500 is only 1500w, but it's just 3kg, so your total weight would be about 9kg-ish.
 
liveforphysics said:
Nano's are good for about 170Wh/kg,..

Which such Nanos are these Luke? Best I've calculated is about 150 Wh/kg... :?
 
Uk and Ireland 240v sockets are rated at 13A, so 3kW charging is doable, providing nothing else is connected to it! Most ring mains have a 30A breaker, so if the place you're charging at has a lot of amp-eating gear on (cooker, kettle, microwave etc.) then an extra 3kw load may trip their breaker.
I'm looking at doing the bridge rectifier thing for my trike. Aiming for 10A in to a 66.6v nominal lipo battery (only 1C charge rate like this).
As I understand it (and I'm not claiming to understand this at all), these chargers are basically constant current supplies (albeit VERY basic ones). When connected to your battery they will attempt to charge it to mains voltage (240v). I'm planning on watching cell voltages very closely while using it, and pull the plug at 4v (not a set and forget solution). If your BMS can handle the current it would be easier for your set up.
There is also no reason you can't build the charger to charge at a lower current (that the BMS can handle), and they are very small and light.
Search for 'poor mans 15amp charger' and you'll see what I'm planning.
 
It migth be dangerous to connect these capacity controled chargers to your BMS. If the BMS cuts off, the main voltage is applied to the BMS. This would be more than 300V. Your BMS might not be able to handle that voltage.
 
Definitely possible with batteries that can charge at faster rates. You have the pings about at thier max now I think. With A123's or RC lipo from hobby king, your charging rate could be increased. Big chargers get larger and heavier to carry though.

But more practical in some ways, is to just get heavier and carry more battery. But then you might be pedaling less, and doing a ride more like just motoring. Up to you if it's worth it. Check out kingfish, he's got one of the ultimate long haul rides around here.

With a stronger frame, and a bit more powerful motor, you can easily carry two pings for example, as I did. Or just lots of RC lipo batteries. Two chargers then gets you into the same charge time doubling your run time. Personally, I never felt the need to ride further by the time I drained 1500 wh out of two pings. About 50- 70 miles, at 15- 20 mph. With a 2 hr charge time using two 500w chargers, 100 miles at 20 mph is quite possible. So 30-40 miles, charge an hour, and two breaks.
 
Classical choice, performance versus weight.

I carry 6x 10S4.5Ah in 30S2P RC lipo (Zippies) around + an iCharger 1010B + PSU (APP-300C).

For your purposes, 6 bricks of 37V nominal 4.5Ah (total of 27Ah) would be ok. At 1.2kg per brick, that is around 7.2kg for 999Wh, which is around 138.7 Wh/kg.
The iCharger is very light, only 500gr.
The PSU is heavy, 2.1kg and "only" 350W. However, it is a real English product, and will definitely NOT fail you like my previous HobbyKing cheap PSU. See manual for more details. I am quite smitten with it.

Total weight would be 9.8kg excluding cables / connectors. The iCharger + PSU balance charges my 6 bricks from 37V to 42V within 2 hours at 7 Ampere. If you go for a quick and dirty fast charge you should be able to fully charge your 999Wh within the hour. I wouldn't carry a charger+PSU with me that is heavier than 3kg. At 10Wh/mile, you can make your daily 100miles with one charging stop.
 
The tradeoff I've never liked, is a REALLY fast charger is nearly as heavy and large as a second pack of battery. What's the better choice? For me, battery. I can carry enough to tucker me out completely as I pedal along at 50w effort.
 
dogman said:
The tradeoff I've never liked, is a REALLY fast charger is nearly as heavy and large as a second pack of battery. What's the better choice? For me, battery. I can carry enough to tucker me out completely as I pedal along at 50w effort.

Yes, but if you are touring you will have to carry a charger anyway, and if the charging opportunities are there, you can lose half the battery if you take a charger three times as fast - fill in two hours as compared to fill twice the capacity in twelve hours.

Ultra-fast charging doesn't get you that much more. It's far more important in my view to get the typical charging stop below one hour than to reduce it to 30 minutes: you can always find something useful to do on a half hour break! :)
 
True enough. 500-600w, as you are carrying now is about the optimium. The 5 amp ping charger is not to bad to carry, nor would two of them be for two 10 ah batteries. About 250w each. Anyway, 250wh in 30 min is not a bad charging rate at all.

But get into 1500w chargers, and they are heavy pigs to carry on a bike.
 
I too, have been trying to come up with a viable on-board charger solution, but every plan seems to have a caveat.
Firstly, it need to be safe. At my age, I can forsee me sitting down to await the charge after lunch and nodding off :roll:
And despite reading 100's of posts on the MeanWell, I'm still not sure which model are best modd'ed to be 100% safe. I just don't trust them.
But perhaps Dr. Bass has come up with something;
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=41898
I particular, I'm eyeing the 600 Watt 48V unit for $120 delivered, which could charge @ 12 Amps.
With the electrons speeding along at that rate, I guess I could stay awake long enough.
Or maybe 2 celogg 8's w/ external alarms. :lol:
 
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