'Theft of power' lands electric-car driver in jail

[rogerc]

Is he going to get arrested for taking a drink from the faucet on school grounds too?
This is ridiculous and if the police have this much time on their hands I got a few neighborhood that they can hang out in.
Waste of tax payers money to pursue this and over use of the court system. A judge is not going to be happy to have this case. Just cause you don't treat a police officer with the due respect they deserve is no reason to arrest them on a silly charge.
Rc

 

[scotticeberg]

Why are ignorant authoritarian teatards so proud to repeatedly spout off about that which they obviously know less than nothing?

This gentlemans case will be dismissed as de mininis. Even if it were theft the amount allegedly taken is so small that the defendent cannot show harm. As such the case is not worth the courts time.

Unless you're gonna bust out blacks law or show me caselaw otherwise, stfu.

 

[dogman dan]

Just because it's there, does not make it given to everybody in the public. Ask for permission before plugging in. If there is nobody to ask, that is not the same as having permission.

There exist power plugs that whoever pays for them has made available to anybody who needs it, or perhaps available to customers. But unless given permission to use the school plug, it is a theft, however small. However, if there had been a public announcement, signage, or whatever giving permission to use the plug, then it would be a completely different situation. You may have permission to use the plug for laptops, phones, you shaver, or whatever, and STILL not have permission to charge an EV. Even a small one like a bike.

I have a plug on my front porch. I assure you I would make it available to anybody who asked politely. But if I came out and found a leaf plugged in to my socket without permission, I would be pissed off. If I found a guy charging his cellphone, I would only be mildly annoyed.

The school plugs are for school operations. Perhaps it's there for the maintenance crew to plug in a tool. Just because it's unsecured does not mean it was intended to be free for the use of everybody who happens by. Sure, taxpayers paid for it and the guy pays taxes, but that does not mean the school system has budgeted any of those funds for the charging of the publics EV's.

You pay taxes to buy a fire engine, and run the station. In the fire station there are beds, and a kitchen with food in it. It's likely to be unlocked all day. Can you move in and live there? Of course not. If you asked first, and were in desperate need, would the firemen let you sleep there and eat a meal. Possibly. But it's not there for your taking just because you paid some taxes and the door is not locked at the moment.

 

[dogman dan]

I think it was a theft, a very small one, but still a theft because the public school property is not always intended for the use of all the public. It depends on the place, different rules in different school districts. In this district, clearly the school property was not considered a public park. Nowdays, this might be the case because opening it to the public calls for additional insurance expense. New schools where I live are now built with locked gates and fence like a low security prison. Old schools are not secured as well, but the public has been told the playground is not for their use.

In his case, playing tennis was a trespass. But this trespass may be allowed or not allowed depending on the behavior of the person. The additional trespass of using the plug may be considered to have damaged the school more than just bouncing the tennis ball around did.

I do agree, no judge will convict him in this case. The point of the exercise was to teach politeness, and that was done in the booking process. He'd been told not to use the courts, and then he returns and uses the courts and the plugs. He asked for, and got a lesson in public behavior.

 

[John in CR]

If you have solar panels on your car and harvest solar energy in the parking lot while parked for your kid's soccer game, is that stealing too? What if it's at night and the small bit of charge power comes mostly from the lights of the park?

The real problem with arresting the guy who plugged in is the waste of public resources to make an example of him. Also, either fighting serious crime was neglected or there are too many police officers, and either of those only 2 possibilities is far more serious than setting an example of the guy. Send him a $20 ticket for plug use without permission instead. That's a sufficient example, and the cost of resources to process it are covered.

 

[Harold in CR]

The guy accused the cop of damaging his car, might have been the door. Can't remember. Anyway, the cop HAD to write a report, and, his superior at the station read the report and told that cop to go arrest the guy.

It's all in the copy/pasted link on the original thread. I don't particularly like how the guy was acting from the git-go. He was told not to be on the school property without permission, because of previous problems with him.

Charging WITH permission where the neighborhood spies are constantly scanning the area, is the ONLY way to do it. The main reason the govt/police act like thugs, is because the spies call with info and it gets recorded and investigated.

People complain about losing their freedom, while their neighbors are the ones causing most of it to happen.

My Dad's Aunt was one of those spies. She rarely left the house but knew EVERYTHING That went on in our little rural neighbor hood.

 

[dogman dan]

If trespassing on the school grounds is illegal in his town, then yes , drinking from the faucet is still a trespass. Emphatically yes if he flunks the attitude test.

This is all a lot of discussion of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Much depends on the actual policies in place with that particular school system.

Just because the word public is used to describe the school does not mean it's open to the entire public. It could well be restricted to only school use. He's not a student, or employee at that school. The English language is full of multiple meanings for one word, depending on context. Public park and public school have different meanings.

Other places may have completely different policy for public use of the schools.

IMO, all the unsecured city property plugs should be automatically available for short periods of charging of EV's, other electronics, or uses such as powering a shaver in a public toilet. Govt workers, like private workers should be offered charging priveleges. If a charge must be made for it, make it a simple flat rate charge deducted from their pay, but low enough to prevent any overcharge if the worker actually uses it. A simple wattmeter can be used to set the rate initially. Right now, a business can take a tax break for offering free charging to the workers for an EV.



But the school budget is different monies, intended only for the benefit of the students, so maybe school plugs and property should be off limits.

 

[Punx0r]

Jeez, why do some people get so wound-up and aggressive over a simple debate? I never take these things personally and assume that others don't either.

I'm afraid I don't have ready access to those big volumes of case law they publish each year. Can't even remember what they're called. But then I've not had a day's tuition in law. Then again, I'm not am armchair lawyer, either. Since you are clearly more knowledgeable on the subject, would it not be more reasonable for you to provide precedent supporting your position?

I have a couple of friends who are practicing solicitors. I could ask them whether, in their opinion, trespassing and stealing electricity is illegal, but I think I know what the answer will be.

Luke, I agree that it's not nice to lock people up and I'm surprised it was deemed necessary, especially since he wasn't arrested on the spot. I don't know if the system works differently, but here, for little things you'd be contacted and asked to go to the station where you'd be interviewed and charged (if justified), then you go home and wait for your court summons to arrive by post. If you're held it's also in an individual cell, so no risk of being bummed by your fellow detainees, like I see on U.S. TV.

 

[FeralDog]

Why are ignorant authoritarian teatards so proud to repeatedly spout off about that which they obviously know less than nothing?
This gentlemans case will be dismissed as de mininis. Even if it were theft the amount allegedly taken is so small that the defendent cannot show harm. As such the case is not worth the courts time.
Unless you're gonna bust out blacks law or show me caselaw otherwise, stfu.

@scotticeberg : Your rumbling.
But as a famous Georgian , the movie character of Doc Holiday once said: "I'm your huckleberry".
In Pace Requiescat.

There are no ignorant authoritarian teatards here. Strawmen bothering you? Looking for an Andrew Bolt to lock away in a socialist Gulag?
It does sadden me that the new liberal far-leftist finds it most convenient to advocate some sort of "justice and freedom for all" and then such archetypes promptly start telling forum people to STFU, and spewing the moniker of "racist" at those they disagree with on this mundane subject. I guess I can post here as long as I'm not officially declared as a fuzzy e-hate speecher?

So to all here on ES advocating Free Electricity without "asking permission", let me present this hypothetical to you --- what happens if some Free Range Electricity "user" happens to fry himself (electrocute) while free-range charging; or worst yet ; initiate one of those infamous Lipo fires at the schoolhouse full of children? Who gets the bill, and the blame?

I must go now, my generator needs some fuel and I am going to my local schoolyard to siphon 5 cents of gas from the school buses. It's OK. The amount taken will be so small that the "defendant cannot show harm".
{stotticeberg; I note in many jurisdictions the "prosecution" bears the burden of proof, or "showing harm", NOT the defendant ... your world sir, must be different}

 

[veloman]

Would it help if you were to leave a quarter in an envelope "for your electricity" ?

Would it still be considered stealing?

Maybe they could still get you on trespassing.

 

[lbz5mc12]

Wait a minute, isn't it a "public" school? Aren't public schools funded by city taxes which the residents of the city pay? If you think about it, he did already pay for the electricity he used. I'm half asleep as I'm typing this so please don't be to harsh if I'm incorrect.

 

[Architectonic]

The real question needs to be asked: why are these plugs available and switched on 24/7 if no one should be using them at those times?

 

[dogman dan]

Well, the thread has been combined now, making many of the posts make little sense in the flow of the discussion. Wish I'd seen all three sooner, when combining them wouldn't have been so bad.

Your taxes pay for all kinds of things that you still have no right to go and use anytime you please. Like the fire truck example.

Again, the word public simply has multiple meanings in the English language. Each school district makes it's own rules as to whether it's facilities are open to the entire public, or just the students and staff of the school. But common sense tells you that if electricity theft, use of the tennis courts, or whatever is becoming a problem, they should secure what they don't want the public to help themselves to. Or at least put up signage.

In my town, I was unable to find one single hot plug in a public park. They are all switched off someplace, and turned on for events that have paid the fee. It sucks, what's the harm of providing a tiny bit of electricity for somebody to charge a phone, a bike, run a small cooker, etc in the center of the park where a large EV cannot reach it.

As for police and courts wasting their time and money on a crime that would fit on the head of a pin, there is nothing new about this when they hate you. In 1974 the cops really hated me. I did six months of probation for three marijuana seeds. The best they could do that time, they ran with it. As a juvie, I could not demand a lawyer if my dear ol dad wanted to throw me to the sharks.

This guy will get a lawyer, and his lawyer will make the cops look like idiots or Nazis or both. Charges will be quietly dropped in exchange for not suing the city.

 

[flathill]

The fire truck is a poor argument

I am allowed to use it at anytime. All I have to do is start a fire or get stuck somewhere. It is a bout proper use. The proper use for an electrical outlet it to dispense electricity. Same as a water fountain in my opinion (and actually the vast majority of people based on web comments on sites such as reddit)

This should not even be a debate which is why people are getting worked up. If a cop even suggested writing me a ticket for using a public outlet you can bet I would say whatever and keep charging

If i did create a trip hazard then I deserve a ticket. This is where things get fuzzy and I think charging etiquette needs establishment in forums such as this. We are still in the early days of the EV revolution. I true ly beleive in the future electricity will be free in many locales, provided by cities who have to compete for young minds. Remeber when wifi came out and people were getting arrested for logging on to someone elses network with no password. Same difference. Its not like the school could add a switch to kill all the outside outlets if they were really spiteful and petty

 

[dogman dan]

I think the etiquette is established. Unless otherwise informed, it's not your plug.

I'm not worked up about this, but I don't like the idea that the owner of the electric bill gets no say in this. If you feel strongly that there should be some free plugs in your community, go to some city council meetings and get er done. It could be just that easy, ask them in public and embarrass them on the TV news if they say no.

Bear in mind one thing you may not have noticed. In the USA it's nearly impossible to find an outdoor plug on a new building that is unsecured. Wanna guess why this is the case? It might be bums rather than EV's, but building owners have caught on. The major exception is a Walmart, which likes to have plugs for a wall of coke machines outside, and IS willing to allow use of the plug, IF YOU ASK. Generally users of that plug are selling something for a charity. They might have a heater under their table, or be running something else.

I have not asked to use power at my WM, since I generally just prefer to carry a big battery. But if I did need to plug in, I assure you that I would ask first. A store or restaurant manager may be quite willing to give you a permanent permission to use the plug for a small EV.

It's very tempting to just plug in, but if you are interested in continuing to have plugs available, asking first will do more to promote that than helping yourself. Obviously, if a plug has signage giving permission then you have asked and gotten a reply that you can.

But if there are hot plugs in locations that are truly public places, such as a public park, then it's quite reasonable to assume it's there for your use, to run a radio, charge your bike, charge your phone or laptop. Such a location is actually intended for the use of all, meeting the broadest interpretation of the word public.

Public school is different meaning of the word public. If you walk into an American public school unauthorized, to use the "public" toilet. I assure you the cops will be called. If you watch any news, you will know why the school is emphatically not open to all of the public anymore.

Of course, it may be completely different in other countries. But in the USA, we are getting pretty touchy about any strangers around the school. This happened at a USA public school. Actually pretty amazing the cops didn't haul off the guy toot sweet just for being on school property.

 

[FeralDog]

I think the etiquette is established. Unless otherwise informed, it's not your plug................
Wanna guess why this is the case? It might be bums rather than EV's, but building owners have caught on..... Actually pretty amazing the cops didn't haul off the guy toot sweet just for being on school property.

@dogman: I like the sound of your bark!

{But may I point out that you are not being "politically correct" when you refer to the cleanliness challenged as "bums". Now, I'm not a rich Iranian immigrant phd driving any eco-friendly LEAF (while saving the planet by developing real estate and attending tennis lessons) . I am a just a basic bum, and I am saddened by your lack of bum-sensitivity. }

I am heading off for now, I have go get a nickel bag , then 5 cents of pluggin' lovin' from a public facility prostitute. Later, Cousin Eddie and I are pluggin' our motorhome in to that free electricity at the school by unscrewing the outlet cover at the base of a light pole. We are cooking eco-hot dogs by taking two wired forks and jabbing em' into the weenies, plug the forks into the electric outlet and ----- electro-sparky dogs Cousin Eddie calls them.
When our RV chemical septic tank gets full , we will just plug in to the “free public access” local storm drain down the street. Our 350 gallons of human feces is a drop in-the-bucket for that public drainage system. Less than 5 cents I'm sure!!!

When the cops show up to abuse our rights, the local judge will surely dismiss our case and them school kids taxpayers' will pay out to me & Eddie like we won the $$$ lottery!! No more free after-school sports, or band practice, for them little school kids though
Oh boy, Merry Christmas Sh*tter Is Full !!!! ----> http://youtu.be/F9sY6iH9Ojg NSFW

 

[Sunder]

This guy will get a lawyer, and his lawyer will make the cops look like idiots or Nazis or both. Charges will be quietly dropped in exchange for not suing the city.

Not sure what laws are like there - I know Americans are pretty sue-happy, but I don't think it would fly here.

A 16 year old girl slapped a transit officer when he asked for her ticket. All of a sudden she's crashed tackled on the ground, and two transit offers are there to help pin her down. Outrage right? She reports it to the police...

She's charged with assault, transit officers are commended for doing their job.

 

[liveforphysics]

I think the etiquette is established. Unless otherwise informed, it's not your plug.

I pose the question to you my friend, who's plug is it if it doesn't belong equally to any and every member of the public, installed at a public facility who's purpose for existing is public use/benefit?

Who owns public facilities in your world? Who's use are they for in your world?

 

[Sunder]

I think the etiquette is established. Unless otherwise informed, it's not your plug.

I pose the question to you my friend, who's plug is it if it doesn't belong equally to any and every member of the public, installed at a public facility who's purpose for existing is public use/benefit?

Who owns public facilities in your world? Who's use are they for in your world?

The government - Who is a separate legal body to its constituents.

Imagine this - Does buying one share in <name your favourite grocery store> entitle you to take any of that company's goods without asking for permission? Why not?

Being a "part-owner" of a legal entity, does not entitle you to the use of the assets of that entity.

 

[liveforphysics]

Just play along with your logic of "the government" owning the school, then who owns "the government" in our country?

Who do we have it for? What is it made of and who supplies it?

 

[Thud]

If only it were so simple.

 

[Sunder]

Just play along with your logic of "the government" owning the school, then who owns "the government" in our country?

Who do we have it for? What is it made of and who supplies it?

Well, technically, in Australia, all government property is property of the crown... Not so much in the US.

I'm not sure what it's like in the US, but I doubt the government is "owned" by the people, as if you could trade shares in them. Do you get a pay out when you renounce your citizenship? Can you buy citizenship into the US? I'd say it's just a legislative body which has been given certain rights to confiscate money by taxation, and use it in accordance with public policy.

It's not even like a public company, which although an independant legal entity is constituted for the benefits of its owners - and even owners of public companies can't do what they like with the company's assets.

 

[dogman dan]

Different meanings of the word public.

Public Park, is not the same as public property or public school. One open to everybody, the others may not be. And any community has the right to make rules for use of the public park, as they see fit.

But hey, in a govt owned facility that is open to all the public, it's not wrong to assume you can use the plug if no signs say not to. But because of the perceived cost of plugging in EV's it would be good to ask first anyway.

If you really want free charge points available in your community, we just saw an example of a bad strategy to make it happen.

 

[Punx0r]

I think the etiquette is established. Unless otherwise informed, it's not your plug.

I pose the question to you my friend, who's plug is it if it doesn't belong equally to any and every member of the public, installed at a public facility who's purpose for existing is public use/benefit?

Who owns public facilities in your world? Who's use are they for in your world?

If we say the outlet is collectively owned by society (as I think you're suggesting), then I reckon it's ok for an individual to use (take temporary ownership of) a socket, provided he has the collective permission of society. I think this should be done in the same was as public will is established when electing a government - national voting for each use of the socket.

 

[dnmun]

i bet the outcome has nothing to do with any of this.

what if there was never an explicit demand that he not use the tennis courts or not use the plug? no one ever talked to him. just made it up because he was iranian.

what if it is discovered that the reason he was cited was because the policeman either made up this detail about how the school told him not to use the courts or plug and included it in his report or if the school officials never told him not to use the courts but told the policeman that because they wanted him to stay away so they made it up after the fact when they felt they could use the policeman to harass him because they did not like him because he is iranian?

this is what i would have expected from a parochial small town in georgia. xenophobia plays it's willing hand.

think about how they leave all the lights burning 24/7 and how much that costs. the lights for the football and baseball fields cost about $25-50/hour but they leave them on willy nilly.