geetarboy
100 W
This sounds like alot of fun, and would love to go if someone can pick me up on their way through KC,depending on where its gonna be. I will gladly chip-in on gas & expenses. Thanks.
Thinking about hosting a race event.
- Thread starter liveforphysics
- Start date
liveforphysics said:
This could be done a bit like many SciFi conventions are done, by creating a fund once, then using that fund to pay for the next convention, which earns money to pay for the next one, and so on. They usually don't make enough to fully pay for themselves, but the primary funding is often done that way. Some are done using non-profit (501c) organization status, which can be complicated to setup, but might be useful for this kind of thing.
Regarding limitations/etc., I don't like two of the limitations suggested--weight and only two wheels. I know that limitations of various kinds encourage innovation, but....
Weight, even minus battery, could be a problem because some big bikes (like mine) can weigh more than 70lbs by themselves. I'm pretty sure CrazyBike2 exceeds that, even without batteries or the cargo pods. I'm not sure what the new bike will weigh yet, but it won't be light, either (even without the cargo rails, but I am hoping to add more batteries (10x TS60Ah) using those, if I need them for range or power).
Trikes, especially leaning trikes, would add some interesting challenges to a race. I doubt I could make one that would hold up under race conditions, but it might be interesting to try.
The weight limit may also exclude some or many trikes, especially ones with more suspension and/or mechanics for leaning and such (at least, the types I can imagine making).
BTW--for a few seconds, I considered trying to figure out how to build the contraption described in the OP, only using some weirdly-repurposed electric motor instead of a dragster engine. :lol:
Oh, and for dates, for me it'd have to be after mid-September, as I don't get any more vacation time till then, and I definitely can't afford to miss any work hours that they'll give me.
liveforphysics
100 TW
Unfortunately, if we allow a trike then it just becomes a trike-only race for anyone who wants to race seriously. Trikes have a massive advantage on a kart track.
I know 70lbs can be tough to hit for a few bikes, but if we don't, the gassers are going to have 250cc dirtbike engines with 6spd trannys and be cranking out 50hp. (At least I would if I was a gas bike entering it)
I know 70lbs can be tough to hit for a few bikes, but if we don't, the gassers are going to have 250cc dirtbike engines with 6spd trannys and be cranking out 50hp. (At least I would if I was a gas bike entering it)
John in CR
100 TW
Since you're not racing, can I send a bike and you supply a sub 175lb rider for a proper attempt by a hub motored bike?
liveforphysics
100 TW
John in CR said:
Absolutely.
Ah; I hadn't thought of either of those things.
I dunno if I can make a bike I can ride that'll fit under that weight limit; we'll see if
A) the new bike ends up light enough
B) its' actually rideable
I dunno if I can make a bike I can ride that'll fit under that weight limit; we'll see if
A) the new bike ends up light enough
B) its' actually rideable
Tiberius
10 kW
All sounding good so far.
If the date works out, then I will come and race.
Nick
If the date works out, then I will come and race.
Nick
liveforphysics
100 TW
Tiberius said:
It would be an honor to have you my friend. Take Miles and Jeremy and Burtie with you when you come.
And you had better bring a screaming hot bike for yourself. 
RollinTwentySix
100 µW
lester12483 said:
Haha! Tell that to all the ebikers that broke down at the DR and Willow Springs, guy. A much higher percentage of ebikes break than gas bikes at these events, it seems
One often only gets what he pays for. Sometimes he pays a lot for nothing but a failmission. I know what you mean about the chinagirl kits, tho: I've had 5 of em since '06 and blew 3 of em up! I stick with 4-strokes now, and the only problem I have is keeping fuel in the tank
---------------------------------------
I'd love to attend this event. I'm no racer, just a guy who likes to ride under 30MPH and mingle with fellow MaBers of any stripe. Love to see some fast ebikes firsthand!
dogman dan
1 PW
There's the challenge of ebike racing right there. Fairly easy to design a huge battery and controller, but then riding it out on the real track without melting er down, while remaining competetively fast is the hard part.
Blow it like I did, and you stress the motor real hard with all that slowing down to the speed you can handle in the corners. At 72v, I was comfy, the motor was comfy, and nothing melted. At 100v the same bike became a bear for me to ride, and I didn't quite finish the race since I hammered it so hard on all the straights trying to catch back up. I was designed faster than the rider could handle. Using inadequate brakes was a big part of the problem. I kept entering corners way too fast.
I dig the weight limit thing, but maybe just a bit of adjustment to that limit for different classes would be nice, once there is enough people running to create such classes. So a gasser weight limit, hub motor weight limit, RC drive weight limit, and a trike class weight limit could differ by 5 pounds or so one way or the other. But that's waaaay in the future when you have 15 or more riders in each class. 70 -80 pounds is in the right ballpark right now for sure, to keep it bicycles. Allow anybody to run the practice sessions of course, on anything not too wobbly that pedals.
Might take a peek at the legal issues too, charging a fee of just one buck could make a difference legaly, insurance wise, or something. Ya know, the informed consent thing.
Blow it like I did, and you stress the motor real hard with all that slowing down to the speed you can handle in the corners. At 72v, I was comfy, the motor was comfy, and nothing melted. At 100v the same bike became a bear for me to ride, and I didn't quite finish the race since I hammered it so hard on all the straights trying to catch back up. I was designed faster than the rider could handle. Using inadequate brakes was a big part of the problem. I kept entering corners way too fast.
I dig the weight limit thing, but maybe just a bit of adjustment to that limit for different classes would be nice, once there is enough people running to create such classes. So a gasser weight limit, hub motor weight limit, RC drive weight limit, and a trike class weight limit could differ by 5 pounds or so one way or the other. But that's waaaay in the future when you have 15 or more riders in each class. 70 -80 pounds is in the right ballpark right now for sure, to keep it bicycles. Allow anybody to run the practice sessions of course, on anything not too wobbly that pedals.
Might take a peek at the legal issues too, charging a fee of just one buck could make a difference legaly, insurance wise, or something. Ya know, the informed consent thing.
Thud
1 MW
After thinking on it a little,
The more I think about it the better I like it.
It harkens back to the dirt track days with "hotlap" qualifying.
And to include every one, go ahead & set up a "main" for every one:
Top 9 QFR's get a pass to the "A" main
Next 9 are the "B" main
Next 9 "C" Main & down the line.
Now, just so every one has a hero to root for, the winner of the lower main gets to advance to the next higher main.
This gives a hot dog who broke down/crashed in qualifying a chance (albeit thin) to make the show.
(yes, far more feasable in the gasoline fueled world than the e-world but its a concept)
Every entry & number is specificly for the Rider...this allows for back up bikes to be brought in & used for the competition. like me having a gasser to run my way up thru the mains to make the show & then unleash a freash "Bully" in the main.
(there is simple software for RC car racing that will automate the entire timing & class set up structure, prolly already built into the AMB transponders set up at the track....easy peasy)
I need a years advance notice to budget for the event if its on the left coast. (or some heavy sponcership)
The more I think about it the better I like it.
It harkens back to the dirt track days with "hotlap" qualifying.
And to include every one, go ahead & set up a "main" for every one:
Top 9 QFR's get a pass to the "A" main
Next 9 are the "B" main
Next 9 "C" Main & down the line.
Now, just so every one has a hero to root for, the winner of the lower main gets to advance to the next higher main.
This gives a hot dog who broke down/crashed in qualifying a chance (albeit thin) to make the show.
(yes, far more feasable in the gasoline fueled world than the e-world but its a concept)
Every entry & number is specificly for the Rider...this allows for back up bikes to be brought in & used for the competition. like me having a gasser to run my way up thru the mains to make the show & then unleash a freash "Bully" in the main.
(there is simple software for RC car racing that will automate the entire timing & class set up structure, prolly already built into the AMB transponders set up at the track....easy peasy)
I need a years advance notice to budget for the event if its on the left coast. (or some heavy sponcership)
auraslip
10 MW
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2010
- Messages
- 3,535
Im guessing the 70lb weight limit is meant to even the field begween gas anc electrics? Problem is... I guess 70lbs is what an x5, a battery big enough to power it for a race, and a barebone bike weighs.... Maybe...gonna be tight though.
ill check out what spread shhet temp,ates arw out there for an event like this... No real ezperince doimg somethimg like this though...
Btw, the name should be lfb.... Live for biking 8)
ill check out what spread shhet temp,ates arw out there for an event like this... No real ezperince doimg somethimg like this though...
Btw, the name should be lfb.... Live for biking 8)
liveforphysics
100 TW
auraslip said:
70lbs with NO BATTERY.
And for gassers, 70lbs with an empty tank. This shouldn't exclude anyone making a race bike attempt and wanting to use an x5.
What it may exclude, is folks wanting to run a massive commuter with grocery racks and lighting etc with an x5, but seriously guys, it's a race, not a commuter ebike ride. I don't think it's unreasonable to make the effort to duck 70lbs with no battery.
Thud said:
Exactly! If we reverse grid them by lap time, then it makes it even more exciting, as the hero from the class below gets to grid in 1st place.
How about we bring the hero concept up a notch. Everyone runs the laps with transponders, their best lap times are recorded, everyone gets gridded up into the A class, B class, C class , D class etc. However! We run the D class first, and the top 2 finishers get to move into the C class race. Then we run the C class, and the top 2 finishers get to move into the B class race. Then the top 2 finishers from B class move into A class. This means, in theory, if your bike wasn't super fast, but you had outstanding race strategy and wheel-to-wheel racing skills, it would be possible to qualify as the slowest D-class rider, and win your way into A-class and win the entire event! Or, it could make it a strategy for somebody to intentionally sandbag to end up in B-class if they were confident enough they could win it, so they could be gridded into 1st for the A-class race.
The more I think about it, the more I LOVE the concept!
liveforphysics said:Or, it could make it a strategy for somebody to intentionally sandbag to end up in B-class if they were confident enough they could win it, so they could be gridded into 1st for the A-class race.
I think this is a great concept!
It should make it more interesting for the spectators...
fizzit
10 kW
Miles said:I hope we can have live video streaming for this event
Yeah we need some kinda multi-cam streaming setup going for the internet spectators (which very likely outnumber the real ones)
TylerDurden
100 GW
Hmmm... unintended consequences?
If there is an incentive (e.g. reverse gridding) to go slower in the qualifier, the group will not naturally distribute into classes that are evenly matched.
Standard gridding might resolve the issue, or excluding the ascending riders from the reverse gridding might maintain the incentive to go fast in the qualifier.
If there is an incentive (e.g. reverse gridding) to go slower in the qualifier, the group will not naturally distribute into classes that are evenly matched.
- Scenario1:
Four nutters duff their way 'round the Q-heat and get into the D class .
Only two can ascend, so all four go hell4leather against each other amidst the other Ds?... the other Ds get slaughtered by nutters (not really a race, IMO).
Scenario2:
Everybody duffs their way around in the qualifier and the whole field distribution is whack.
Standard gridding might resolve the issue, or excluding the ascending riders from the reverse gridding might maintain the incentive to go fast in the qualifier.
vanilla ice
1 MW
Draw the starting grid order out of a hat. A third chance each out of standard, reverse, or random. And don't draw until after qualifying.
John in CR
100 TW
70lb before batts 
That enables me to do dual heavy hubbies, and with regen the mechanical brakes may be unnecessary. I don't run those mushy acceleration and inefficient at high power X5's (something I can now speak of from 1st hand experience due to the X5304 we now have on a bike, and only makes sense with that overlapping winding strategy which makes sense to reduce cogging for pedal only.).
At 70lb I may even be able to use Hubmonster on the rear with a conservatively tuned 7.5kw front. What kind of top speed is needed to be competitive?
That enables me to do dual heavy hubbies, and with regen the mechanical brakes may be unnecessary. I don't run those mushy acceleration and inefficient at high power X5's (something I can now speak of from 1st hand experience due to the X5304 we now have on a bike, and only makes sense with that overlapping winding strategy which makes sense to reduce cogging for pedal only.). At 70lb I may even be able to use Hubmonster on the rear with a conservatively tuned 7.5kw front. What kind of top speed is needed to be competitive?
liveforphysics
100 TW
TylerDurden said:
This could be solved by only letting someone ascend a max of 1 class or 2 classes through wins. I'm not a big fan of that idea though.
However, I think if fast people want to take the risk of sandbagging and not making to A-class (mechanical failures, electrical failures, wrecks, being gridded last in a slow class and struggling to pass 19 people etc), it should be an open option for them.
In the drag racing I do, only the top 16 cars ("the quick 16") get to qualify for the event. Your competition depends on your qual times. This means, my goal is to always sandbag to grid 16th. However, you never know what a dark-horse car is going to run, so if you sleep it too hard, you blow it and don't even get to race. If you just run flat-out in quals, then you're likely going to be eliminated in your first round, unless all of the fast guys sandbagged, In which the first few elimination races are spectacular to watch, and really exciting for the racers and the fans.
Thud
1 MW
hehe, I guess I figured it was common knowledge we run the "mains" in revers order....my bad.
Top qualifiers, seeded into the "A" main get to rest easy & prepair for the trophy dash. Sand bagers are "forced" to win their way all the way back up to the real race. They will get more track time but, by advancing only the 1st place finisher, you gareentee incentive to win in the lower mains, The more laps you make, the more likly a mechaical failure, or an ontrack "incident"
Qualifying higer is allways "bragging" rights. Sand bagging is a Looseing stagity. you have to start at the back of each asending class.
Inverting the top 5 qualifiers is common in sprint car racing also (just to make sure the promoters put on a show for the spectators)
this is a straight up RC racing formate also.
Top qualifiers, seeded into the "A" main get to rest easy & prepair for the trophy dash. Sand bagers are "forced" to win their way all the way back up to the real race. They will get more track time but, by advancing only the 1st place finisher, you gareentee incentive to win in the lower mains, The more laps you make, the more likly a mechaical failure, or an ontrack "incident"
Qualifying higer is allways "bragging" rights. Sand bagging is a Looseing stagity. you have to start at the back of each asending class.
Inverting the top 5 qualifiers is common in sprint car racing also (just to make sure the promoters put on a show for the spectators)
this is a straight up RC racing formate also.
Thud
1 MW
TD says:
I have yet to meet anyone who would sand bag a Qualifier to the point of dropping 3 classes. it is bad stragity. The Cream wll rise to the top.
Let only the winner advance (you don't want the 2nd place guy to get complacent if they clear the 3rd place) & no matter what, they start at the rear of the next round. Invert each grid if you like, but the hero has to fight all night!
John: you'll need about 50mph to be competitive & considering few cart tracks have a straight longer than 800'.
Thats racing in a nutshell. 4 "A "class guys having to race for 1 position? thats a great senario! The true "d" class guys will get slaughtered anyway. The intent is for any one who has a mechanical failure or crash in qualifying has an opertunity to advance on their riding skills.
I have yet to meet anyone who would sand bag a Qualifier to the point of dropping 3 classes. it is bad stragity. The Cream wll rise to the top.
Let only the winner advance (you don't want the 2nd place guy to get complacent if they clear the 3rd place) & no matter what, they start at the rear of the next round. Invert each grid if you like, but the hero has to fight all night!
John: you'll need about 50mph to be competitive & considering few cart tracks have a straight longer than 800'.
TylerDurden
100 GW
I merely prefer the D-riders through A-riders be segregated through qualifying. Gives the D-riders (and so forth) competition among themselves... the A-riders will always be racing each other and garner the most interest anyway.
General/random thoughts...
IMO, greater interest for these events could be generated by:
Sponsorship and gate-fees could help create self-sustaining periodic events. Unfortunately, there aren't many standard items used across builds (to tap mfr. sponsors)... everybody uses different bits.
Red-Bull, RockStar and Monster & other bevs seem to sponsor just about anything that can generate public interest - Maybe we could leverage our ES internet footprint to snag some sponsorship.
General/random thoughts...
IMO, greater interest for these events could be generated by:
- Allowing a wide spectrum of riders to compete against like-riders, without gross mismatching.
Offering a series of events that escalate from novice up to whacko.
Publicizing unambiguous, non-arbitrary guidelines established well in advance; so interested parties can decide and prepare.
Rewards and recognition for racers, contributors, volunteers, organizers, drivers, travelers, etc.
Novelty activities (competitive and non-competitive): demonstrations/exhibitions, raffles, kid-stuff, giveaways, swapmeets, fire/explosions...
Sponsorship and gate-fees could help create self-sustaining periodic events. Unfortunately, there aren't many standard items used across builds (to tap mfr. sponsors)... everybody uses different bits.
Red-Bull, RockStar and Monster & other bevs seem to sponsor just about anything that can generate public interest - Maybe we could leverage our ES internet footprint to snag some sponsorship.
TylerDurden
100 GW
Oh Yes...Miles said:E-Bike jousting? http://imgur.com/gallery/SaM4MTylerDurden said:
Jeezuz, that's funny. :lol:
