Thunderbolt tadpole in wood

My motor is 130v and 6750rpm so our motors are pretty close..practically the same kv. Oh, your motor is 2.89HP and mine is 3.2HP but I think we can both round to 3HP and call it even. :wink: 8)

Regular bike sprockets and chain seem to work but I won't use it on the motor side ever again. Since I wanna run the motor closer to its sweet spot (2400-4800rpm / 16-32mph) the chain can get kinda loud and scary. At 36v you're only gonna get about 1800rpm so noise may not factor.

What size wheel?..it's not hard to figure what ratio(s) you need. later :)
 
If we assume 1800rpm max and you use a 6:1 then your wheel would spin 300rpm which should give you a top speed of about 23mph, depending on the actual diameter.

I dunno if 6:1 will really work though...1800rpm is pretty slow and if it's like mine then the motor is a dog below 1000rpm...

To have a good time with it I think you wanna shoot for 20mph being 3600rpm. That way the low end won't be so bad and you can cruise at partial throttle without killing efficiency. As long as the gearing can handle it that would also leave room for more speed.

At 3600rpm I'd be going about 24mph but I'm looking to go from 9:1 to 11.25:1 so I hit 20mph at 3600rpm. When my camera gets back from Alaska I'll get a couple pics of my drive..
 
To get 3600rpm out of my motor I *think* I'd need 72v, not sure. By using two stages of gears from the motor, to the jackshaft, to the drive wheel, shouldn't it be easier to get a high ratio without huge gears? How many teeth are on regular bike gears anyway?
 
With a jackshaft it is easier but it can still take a bit of space using bike parts. 16t is common on little kid bikes and old coaster brake hubs. On the upper end you can find 53t and 60t but 48t is more common. 32t is also pretty easy to find..I dunno about 24t...

16->60 = 3.75:1
16->48 = 3:1
16->32 = 2:1
16->24 = 1.5:1

On my trailer I've got two 16t sprockets and two 48t sprockets..3*3= 9:1 total. To get a 6:1 you could use a 16 and 32 then 16 and 48..2*3= 6:1 total. I'm not sure 6:1 is enough, but maybe.

I'm not saying you should, but if you power it the way I do then pack/motor voltage isn't a concern...I'm using a small 12v battery and I've had my motor near 9k rpm on the bench and it pushes 500lbs on the flat. I'm saving for a 24v pure sine wave inverter since it'll be more efficient but the $80 12v MSW inverter works fine for a budget system.

I'm still far from expert but my grin comes from a treadmill motor so I guess I did something right. Got any pics or details on the frame and other bits? later :)
 
24/34/44T are typical mountain bike front chainring sizes.
28/38/48 are typical road bike front chainrings.
If you find the ones with bolt-on rings to the spiders/cranks, they're really easy to bolt to other things. If you get them off one-piece cranks they're sometimes harder to do that with.

If you take apart any rear cassette you'll usually get from 32T to 28T at the largest, down to 16T to 11T at the smallest. Most of the rings above 18T have lightening holes in them that make great bolt-holes, but sometimes the bolt heads will interfere with the chain links laying fully down into the teeth, on the smaller rings. Can require filing of the bolt heads on that side, which might weaken them some.

Other sizes can be found on one-piece cranks on kids' bikes, usually as flat plates for the single-geared bikes, in front, so you could drill whatever mounting holes you need in them. I've seen anything from 30T up to 40T on these. On the rear they'll usually have coaster brake hubs with a circlip-attached single gear, probably 13T to 18T.
 
Personally I wouldn't go lower than 16t but if I was doing it over I'd use a belt drive on the motor side so I could hit the max rpm without going deaf.

Oh, have you thought about friction drive?...I've seen a couple pedgens w/ treadmill motors..
 
I could do belt drive but then I'm left with the issue of regen when not running the motor. Same goes for friction. Either could be alleviated with a mechanical clutch, but I'm not sure I feel up to engineering something like that just yet. I'm not too worried about noise for the first prototype, it won't be seeing a lot of action and exists primarily to let me take measurements on what will need improvement for the second prototype. :) I've already decided the first prototype won't be a velomobile or have a back seat as shown in my concept drawings. For simplicity's sake it'll be just a trike with a motor and a single 12v 20ah car battery.

Speaking of simplicity and motor, I'm thinking the simplest setup will be to place the motor on a "rack mount" style platform above the rear wheel, with a chain running down and forward to a free hub behind the seat, and another chain running from the left side of that hub to the left side of the drive wheel. This will minimize the amount of structural work I need to do below the seat, and will allow me to stay closer to the original thunderbolt plans for this first build.

The second prototype will use a more boat-like "keel" for its spine along the bottom, with frames mounted perpendicular and a keelson fixing them in place. Deck beams will be fitted to the frames as in a wooden boat, and will serve a double purpose of creating a platform for the seat and a compartment below the center of gravity for the batteries / motor. This will place the seat about 6 inches higher off the ground than in the standard thunderbolt design, but will give more room for a potential passenger, cargo, and myself, as well as a mostly enclosed area for the motor / jackshaft free hub which should reduce some of the noise. :) Since it'll be mostly enclosed I'll probably have to add some PC chassis fans and maybe a heatsink for some parts to keep them cool, we'll see. Lastly the boat-like frames will give good anchoring points for the upper half velomobile frame while forming the lower half themselves.

Anyhow, it sounds like my best bet would be 16 -> 60 * 16 -> 60 which would give me just a hair over 14:1, right? Could my motor even handle that much torque?

How do you have yours powered to get that much out of 12v? Doesn't that use up a lot more amps = a lot less run time? I'm not terribly interested in going faster than 20mph but I WOULD like to maximize my range. On my regular upright mountain bike I can sustain 17mph on the flats for quite a while, it won't make much sense to go electric if I can't do that same speed for at least a couple hours. Also what is the inverter for? I thought those were for converting AC to DC and vis-versa, is your motor AC? My motor is 120v DC, 18amp, permanent magnet, not sure if it's brushed or brushless. It's essentially identical to the treadmill motor Amberwolf's got.

No I haven't got a functional digital camera right now. I lost my nice one in the last move, and lost the memory card for the crummy one a few weeks ago. I'll clean my room and go through boxes tomorrow, either the missing card or missing camera should turn up, and if they don't, I know the kids' fisher price digital camera (not even 1Mpx but hey it works!) is in one of the boxes of toys. ;) Tomorrow I'll bolt the stays to the frame, cut out and glue the gussets, and hopefully cut out the dropouts and bolt them to the stays. We'll see. Hmmmm It's 2am, I should probably get some sleep since by tomorrow I mean today!

Edit: Oh, and speaking of PC chassis fans, over a decade of work in the IT industry has left me with a LOT of dead computers gathering dust. I'm wondering if metal from the chassis of these, though thin, could be used to reinforce layers of wood or at least to make little brackets to keep wooden parts from bending or moving too much... hmmm...
 
Anyhow, it sounds like my best bet would be 16 -> 60 * 16 -> 60 which would give me just a hair over 14:1, right? Could my motor even handle that much torque?

It should be fine but 60t is pretty big and then 20mph would be closer to 4200rpm. It can be kinda hard to keep chains on at that speed and then add the noise. 11.25:1 would be easier to fit, quieter and cheaper..16->48, 16->60

How do you have yours powered to get that much out of 12v? Doesn't that use up a lot more amps = a lot less run time?

battery->inverter->SCR->motor

The inverter makes 110v AC and the SCR turns that into 90v (/180v) DC for the motor.

To get decent range I pedal at really low speeds, tend to cruise near 15mph, tucked some, and I've got skinny tires. Since I'm limited (for now) by the single battery I just avoid hills...500-ish watts isn't much when it's set for 62mph at 180v...

With only 20ah I would be better off with 11.25:1 but my plan is to order another 20ah in a couple days and possibly two 10ah next month. If it's not up to par at that point then I'll order a 60t ring and change the ratio. With two 20ah and two 10ah, at some point I can upgrade to a 24v inverter and reconfigure the batteries for 30ah at 24v...

I should've started with a 24v inverter. Even better, a 24v pure sine wave inverter. Oh well, now I know. :)
 
hmmm at that rate I could get around at the same speeds on my upright bike for about the same range. The only difference is that I'd be pedaling the whole time instead of part time like you're doing. Also I want hill climbing power. If I can do around 15mph uphill I'll be happy. If I can do 20mph on flats for an hour I'd be ecstatic.

My ideal usage would be to pedal assist up to 20mph, then just give bursts of speed from the motor and / or pedaling when it dips below 20mph. That way the motor's not running full time so I should theoretically get more range, right?

When standing and pedaling at the highest gear I can average 17 to 20mph for a short time, when sitting my average is 10 to 13 on flats. Last night I was able to do 15 on flats while sitting and stuck in 14th gear. If my trike cannot perform as well as the upright, it's difficult to justify making it. :(

I guess what I want from the trike is 20mph consistently (assisted or not) over longer distances than I can comfortably ride on my mountain bike. What would it take to get that out of this project?
 
I pedal like a 75yr old grandma for less than 10% of the time for the "typical use" range in my sig, don't get me wrong there. Once I can't sag the battery in a blink then I should be able to tackle some hills no problem.

I think you'd do fine with 11.25:1, a 24v inverter, an SCR and maybe 4x 15ah SLAs. I'll know more in a couple weeks of course. :)
 
My ideal usage would be to pedal assist up to 20mph, then just give bursts of speed from the motor and / or pedaling when it dips below 20mph. That way the motor's not running full time so I should theoretically get more range, right?

The SCR's cruise control seems to take advantage of every opportunity to coast so it seems the best thing to do is set it at some speed and assist now and then, especially below 5mph and up steep hills. I think it would make sense to turn it off if you were gonna coast down a hill for several blocks or more but if you slow down very much without going very far then you're not doing yourself much good.
 
I made a steering knuckle out of some 2x4 today, it's not going to work as is. The wood is too soft to hold a thread so I'm going to have to insert something metal (perhaps a nut) and jbweld it in. The combination of adhesive and hexagonal shape should be at least as strong as the wood itself. If it breaks it won't be the nuts. I'll just have to chisel out the hexagon shape and I'll be ready to hunt down some 20" wheels.

Edit: I tried out the idea of chiseling a hexagon and sticking in a nut. It worked perfectly! :D
 
Ok I've finished the front right steering assembly and the next part I need is a 20mm "axle insert" that screws onto a bolt that goes through the steering knuckle. Any idea where I'd get such a thing?
 
Can you give us a few more clues..?

What does the 20mm dimension refer to? O.D. ? Internal thread?

There are many different types of inserts available or you can make your own.
 
That's all it says in the instructions. 20mm is the outer diameter of the insert. The inner diameter is 12mm which fits on a 12mm (15/32") 24TPI right hand threaded bolt (no locking nut that I can see).
 
Kris,
You must figure out a way at this point to provide some pictures. We all need some kind of a camera. Especially if you want to comunicate a complex project as you are takeing on and discribing to ES. We all would love to see....
 
Ok found the memory card for the camera that isn't missing, here's the current progress! :)

I've completed the main frame. All that remains are the stays and the left steering knuckle assembly, and both of the ackerman arms. Then she'll be ready for wheels! I ordered two front hubs yesterday that'll fit and they should be arriving tomorrow I think. :)

DSCN2076sm.jpg

DSCN2077sm.jpg

DSCN2078sm.jpg

DSCN2079sm.jpg

DSCN2080sm.jpg


Today or tomorrow I want to get the rear dropouts cut out so that I can assemble the stays and try putting a rear wheel on here. :) Pretty soon I'll be moving on to bottom bracket, pedals, gears, and chain. :D
 
Hi everyone, it's been a while since I've had anything to post. Life got in the way and then I ran out of money for more parts, but I'm getting back in action now. :)

I'm currently stumped on the front axles.

I need either a 20mm axle threaded for a 12mm or larger bolt:
fk308g00__________axle.jpg


Or I need two adapters per wheel:
20mm%20to%2012mm%20adpters.jpg


The latter is the less expensive route if I buy online. 20mm threaded axles cost about $50 each, and I need two of them so that's $100 which I cannot afford on my current budget. The adapters seem to be about $15 each? I'm having trouble finding them online. I'd need two for each wheel so a total of $60. I can't help but think a bushing from a hardware store would do the same job and be a bit cheaper? hmmm...

Any ideas where to buy these for preferably a low price? Does anyone here live in the Portland, Oregon area and know where to get such things locally? Or know of any machine shops that could turn a few of these out at a decent price?

Edit: Calling around the bike shops in town most of them are clueless what a 20mm axle is in the first place. I finally found one guy at a downhill MTB specialty shop who DID know what a 20mm axle was but when I tried to explain that it doesn't matter what forks the axles fit as long as they fit my hub. *sigh* He did come up with one good suggestion though; Measure the length of the hub to know exactly what size axle I need.

He said they could order what I need for $40 each.

After getting off the phone with him I realized that a longer axle would work, I'd just have to put washers on the extra axle protruding from the outside edge of the wheel.
 
Kris:
I am concerned with the use of wood for the axle support. The grain appears to be inline with the vertical force that will be generated from the wheel? If the axle spits the wooden spindle from hitting a bump while your foot is at the bottom of the stroke, you may break a leg? Have you considered gokart style spindles or those from a small ATV? http://www.mfgsupply.com/GoMiniSteeringSpindlesParts.html/mv_session_id=4iADncNe
 
KrisWood said:
I need either a 20mm axle threaded for a 12mm or larger bolt

From experience, a 10mm high-tensile bolt is sufficient (12mm would add a bit of safety margin) - so long as the bolt is long enough for about 20mm of un-threaded shank inside the wheel mount, so the shear stresses aren't concentrated on the point where thread transitions to shank. If the bolt is exactly the 'right' length and the thread ends at the surface of the piece it screws into, you'll find the wheels have a tendency to fall off :shock:. Trust me: been there, done that...
 
When I had to replace my 349 "euro 16" wheels the axle is 12 mm bolt. The KMX nylon wheels I used were true 16" but the bearings were 1/2" (about a bit less than 1mm difference). I used annealed shim brass rolled to the correct diameter to fill in the space and they have been faultless for about 5 months now. There is some leeway to this axle thing. Plain grade 5 bolts should be fine.
otherDoc
 
Gordo has a good point. Is there any way you can re-enforce the wood around the axle with alloy or steel? That axle is a high stress area. In my old homebuilt trike I used 3/8 aircraft alloy for the axle blocks. It drills and works fairly easily with regular hand shop tools like a drill, hand grinder and a carbide blade table saw. I wished I had a bandsaw but, alas, I didn't.
otherDoc
 
I will be using metal, I'll just have to have someone else fabricate it for me. The wood was just a test to see if it's a realistic method of doing this. My conclusion is that it is not. It might work for testing purposes during initial development but I don't expect it would last long.

Doc, could you post a picture of your setup? I have no idea what you're talking about. :?

Edit:

Ah ok, dnmun unraveled the mystery for me.

This is what I was talking about: http://www.bitexhubs.com/htm/hub-b-DH20M.htm

I already have a pair of hubs that are similar to these though not the same brand. It's the axle I'll need. Now that I see it though, I can tell it won't work.

  • First, the axle tube is threaded only at the end, to accommodate the bolt that holds it on the forks, there's not enough to screw into for my bolt to hold it on the knuckle.
  • Second, the tube is 14ga, which is just under 2mm. This means I'd need a 16mm bolt rather than the 12 that my blueprints call for and 10mm that many people say will work just fine.
  • Finally, the axle would be far to long to be useful.

I could cut it down to 110mm and rethread it for a longer bolt but still more trouble than it's worth, and far more expensive than paying someone else to machine it for me.

So, what I need is a rod 20mm in diameter, 110mm long, with a hole for a 12mm bolt tapped in one end, and some manner of shoulder on the other to keep the wheel from sliding off.

Now I understand why the MTB shop salesman sounded so exasperated on the phone!
 
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