Tonaro User group

[Geebee]

Re your throttle speed, if your speed when using pedal assist is correct you have probably got a controller with a 6 mph limited throttle as legally required in some market's.
I have and Esprit with no throttle at all, I think the ones bought into OZ are a mixed batch of spec's.

 

[twain]

Re your throttle speed, if your speed when using pedal assist is correct you have probably got a controller with a 6 mph limited throttle as legally required in some market's.
I have and Esprit with no throttle at all, I think the ones bought into OZ are a mixed batch of spec's.

That inspires a train of thought: Since a limited throttle is part of the European EN 15194 standard (which the Aus Government only recently adopted)Ϯ, if the throttle is now limited to 10 Km/Hr on all Tonaro-built bikes newly imported for sale in Australia by the Aseako Group, (Aseako & Zoco brand names), then that may suggest that the firmware in the controller may also be calibrated to deliver 250 W rather than 200 W -since this is part of the EN 15194 standard also.

I mention this because, apparently the owner of the Aseako Group recently advised an Australian customer that the EN 15194 version of these bikes were ‘on their way’ to these shores. And it’s also interesting to observe that recently imported Zoco version of these bikes (which are fitted with NuVinci) are now also fitted with the long-overdue chain tensioner -giving further evidence of a model revision.

The only thing that doesn’t quite fit with this the EN 15194 version theory in Floyd’s case -is that this standard also requires that all power be removed from the motor when the bike reaches 25 Km/Hr; but to do that with a crank drive bike requires that a magnetic wheel sensor be fitted for speed detection –and Floyd did mention that “There is no speed restrictor or magnet on the back wheel” of his bike.

So, it’s all a bit of a mystery really.
And that’s enough theorising from me tonight…!

Cheers

Ϯ Legalities: While the EN 15914 standard was adopted by the Aus Federal Gov as a national standard, it’s still up to individual States to bring their own rules in to line in this regard; and at the time of writing, I believe that only Victoria has got around to doing this so far.

 

[rroland]

I can confirm that there is no magnet on a wheel on my bike.
I also believe it supplies power at least up to 30 kms.
Also last week I had a Major breakdown. The bearing in the drive failed.
When I explained that (when i apply Power as before the motor is working but no assistance is present.
Something in the central drive. The Bike pedals and operates as normal but no drive to the Chain Cog.)
Sounds like a broken bearing.
May be this is a weak point I have only had the Bike since early Oct and about 1000Kms.
Still waiting for replacement from Wednesday last week

 

[twain]

...when i apply Power as before the motor is working but no assistance is present. Something in the central drive. The Bike pedals and operates as normal but no drive to the Chain Cog. Sounds like a broken bearing...

G’day Roland,

I may be wrong, but I’m thinking that the problem is not likely to be caused by a failed bearing –which would be more likely to simply make a noise and/or seize up.

If you can hear the motor turning, but simply not getting any drive to the Chain ring, perhaps other more likely possibilities may include a fault in the internal free-wheel clutch (whose function is to allow the motor to be unpowered without putting a drag on the bike); or the failure of a pin which attaches a gear to the motor shaft. Both of these items are internal to the central drive unit.

(I believe that the failure of the gear-pin has previously been reported here on Endless Sphere, but I can’t remember in which post I saw it though).

Let us know how you go with getting the problem rectified –I’m sure we will all be interested in how you go with this.

Best of luck
Cheers

Edit: Grammar

 

[Floyd1]

Thanks for that info. My dealer pre sold all the 250 watt bikes and is waiting for another shipment in December I think he mentioned. He is also designing and building an off road version of the cranky which sounds awesome!
Slightly more power would make this bike a much better machine but also keep it civil. Yeah the chain tensioner definitely is a good addition.
There are some good pictures of the crank drive Torano on this board somewhere which shows the drive opened up and Twain might be right about the drive gear pin failing as in allot of drives like these there is usually a weak point or shear pin designed to let go first. I started to pull the motor off my bike the other day to check it was greased properly as out of the box it was very loud but has since quietened down. The two bolts seemed like they were lock tightend in pretty well so rather than possibly break one I left it alone until later. I've seen some very poor attempts of lubing gears with Chinese drive units in various machines such as buggies and quads and in some cases the grease is everywhere but where it should be so the drive should always be serviced first thing when the bike arrives to play it safe. Once I've stripped my drive I'll post some pictures and we will see if its possible to fill the crank case with oil or at the minimum a grease nipple with a slight rework of a few things.

I'm not liking the twist throttle so intend to fit a thumb throttle in the near future so we will see if that improves top end? In any case a bit more power or torque to the motor would translate to better top end speed as well as low down grunt which is where these drives shine. All in all they are great bikes.

Re your throttle speed, if your speed when using pedal assist is correct you have probably got a controller with a 6 mph limited throttle as legally required in some market's.
I have and Esprit with no throttle at all, I think the ones bought into OZ are a mixed batch of spec's.

That inspires a train of thought: Since a limited throttle is part of the European EN 15194 standard (which the Aus Government only recently adopted)Ϯ, if the throttle is now limited to 10 Km/Hr on all Tonaro-built bikes newly imported for sale in Australia by the Aseako Group, (Aseako & Zoco brand names), then that may suggest that the firmware in the controller may also be calibrated to deliver 250 W rather than 200 W -since this is part of the EN 15194 standard also.

I mention this because, apparently the owner of the Aseako Group recently advised an Australian customer that the EN 15194 version of these bikes were ‘on their way’ to these shores. And it’s also interesting to observe that recently imported Zoco version of these bikes (which are fitted with NuVinci) are now also fitted with the long-overdue chain tensioner -giving further evidence of a model revision.

The only thing that doesn’t quite fit with this the EN 15194 version theory in Floyd’s case -is that this standard also requires that all power be removed from the motor when the bike reaches 25 Km/Hr; but to do that with a crank drive bike requires that a magnetic wheel sensor be fitted for speed detection –and Floyd did mention that “There is no speed restrictor or magnet on the back wheel” of his bike.

So, it’s all a bit of a mystery really.
And that’s enough theorising from me tonight…!

Cheers

Ϯ Legalities: While the EN 15914 standard was adopted by the Aus Federal Gov as a national standard, it’s still up to individual States to bring their own rules in to line in this regard; and at the time of writing, I believe that only Victoria has got around to doing this so far.

 

[Floyd1]

Anyone who rides at night will appreciate this mod. I fitted the business end of a 910 Lumen LED torch into the stock headlight body. In there is also a 12oo mah 5 cell NIMH and micro switching relay to use the stock wiring to turn the light on and off from the controller mounted on the handle bars.
The little red plug poking out the bottom of the housing is the charging point and on long night rides another battery can be plugged into this.
This particular torch has 4 modes, high, med and low beam, strobe and sos which is achieved by turning the power on and off. The light output from this touch is insane and almost equal to my HID torch 4 times the size! Its allot heavier than most other bike lights but its worth it for safety reasons alone and the strobe will certainly let the tin tops know your there!
If you fit the old lenses off the stock light due to it being concaved this can be fitted over the end like a cover which gives a good spread beam for tight trails. Cost was around $120.

Cheers

 

[Floyd1]

Good place to mount your smart phone. There is an app called Speed Box which has a brilliant odo and speedo and includes alt and a bunch of other info. The phone clip is called an Otter and comes with the belt clip and rubber casing which fits the phone like a glove protecting it including a screen saver.

 

[Geebee]

Twain, check your continuous and max amps on the controller, I know mine is the same as the euro ones.
Some manufactures just state the bikes are 200w to be able to import them, when they are the same as the 250w ones.

 

[twain]

...Some manufactures just state the bikes are 200w to be able to import them, when they are the same as the 250w ones.

Yes, I agree with that. Clearly they would prefer to make as few variations as possible for different markets; especially when a product is being imported into a small market like Australia is at the moment. My motor cover is engraved 200W –but that may well have been the only change they made in respect to motor power!

But when the manual throttle speed is suddenly limited in new bikes being delivered, that’s good evidence that a different version of firmware is being used in the controller -compared to what had been supplied previously. And the Tonaro people probably prefer it this way too; since they can now say “Oh Australia is an EN 15194 standard country now; so we can just ship the same controllers that we send to Europe –that makes it easier for us”.

So why is there no speed sensor fitted (as is required by the EN 15194 standard)...?

My guess is that the production line people had become accustomed to sending us bikes without a speed sensor being fitted (it wasn’t required in Aus when the bikes were labelled 200W); and no one has told them that it is actually now required. But Shhh, don’t tell them –we don’t want the darn speed limiters anyway!

Of course, we don’t want the limited throttle control either. It’s just crazy –and there doesn’t seem to be any good reason for it. But there’s not much hope for a change on this though –the European Parliament recently re-examined their Pedelec laws and decided on no change; and that the EN 15194 standard would remain in effect.

http://www.bike-eu.com/Laws-Regulations/Regulations/2012/11/EU-Vote-Limits-Pedelecs-to-250-Watt-1110726W/?cmpid=NLC|Bike%20Europe|21-nov-2012|EU%20Vote%20Limits%20Pedelecs%20to%20250%20Watt

 

[Ahoog]

Definitely go the Nuvinci drive and its a product that is used on superchargers, generators etc in big industry. Still trawling this forum for articles on mods to this style of bike. I know most Gophers (electric wheel chairs) use the same motor that's on the bike but I think these too are restricted to 200 watts to be legal to use on the roads.
My bike will be here Monday. The first mod will be to run gear oil in the gearbox in place of the grease and this should allow less friction. The fact that this bike has effectively a gearbox this opens the door to some very worthwhile mods for power and range capabilities.

Floyd

Since I want my bike to be as fast as possible I'm a little worried about the noticeable drag in the Nuvinci that has been reported on other forums. Did you notice any on your bike?
At the same time I want the features of the Nuvinci...
The Rohloff Speedhub has a very interesting range compared to the Nuvinci but the price is not so nice.

BTW, does anyone know the RPM of the front chainring when the motor is at full speed?
I'm trying to figure out what my gearing should be...

Anders

 

[Geebee]

I asked this before getting mine and the guestimate was 65 rpm, having now ridden a bit I would say that it is coming out the top of its assist at that and full assist is probably closer to 50 rpm.

 

[Ahoog]

I asked this before getting mine and the guestimate was 65 rpm, having now ridden a bit I would say that it is coming out the top of its assist at that and full assist is probably closer to 50 rpm.

Well, in theory it would be around 68 according to my calculations as you can feel that the assist is lost around 31-32 km/h. Not using the pedals at all brings it only to around 25-26 km/h
So it seems around 50-55 rpm without pedaling on flat ground is what it is capable of in its standard form.

Now, if you do a shunt mod or exchange the controller to allow 20A, would you then get a increased top speed without pedaling close to its top speed while pedaling?
15A * 1,3 = 19,5A and 25km/h * 1,3 = 32,5 km/h

And then if you change the gearing so that you have a 52 tooth chainring you would have a theoretical top speed with assist of around 39 km/h.

Question, Is this complete nonsense? Or is the idea and calculations ok and how can I transfer this to the Nuvinci hub?


Anders

 

[Tom L]

Motor speed is related to voltage. So going from 36 to a 48v battery would get you up in the 70rpm (pedal) range.

 

[Ahoog]

Motor speed is related to voltage. So going from 36 to a 48v battery would get you up in the 70rpm (pedal) range.

Yes, getting a higher voltage battery is my next project, but so far I haven't been able to figure out how to get nice batteries into the stock compartment. I want the bike to have a clean look, so no extra battery bags and such.
Maybe I will make a modified battery box from fiberglass later but we'll see.

But in this case it seems that the bike doesn't have enough torque to bring it to the motor top speed because the controller is limited to 15A output.
That's why I think I will get more speed by adding torque.
Not assisted top speed while pedaling though, which will be the same of course since the voltage hasn't changed, and that's why I want to change the chainring to maybe 50-52T instead of the standard 42T.

Anders

 

[Floyd1]

These bikes definitely need more torque to achieve better top end as with the stock set up combined with the Nuvinci my bike will max out at around 31 klm on the flat slight decline (I weigh around 80 kg). Now I have a proper speedo with the I Phone GPS the average speeds are around 10-15-30 klm hour. It feels like it dose not need a great deal more torque to achieve good top end in top gear without sacrificing too much more battery power.
Question. Would it be possible to run two stock 36 volt batteries in parallel? The bike runs heaps better for 5-10 minutes after a fresh charge and if it ran like that over the whole 30-40 klm range for me this would be sufficient. The stock battery weighs bugger all so two wired in parallel should provide a good strong current longer without going too extreme with other mods.

 

[gorach]

Dont think so guys. The controller is rated at 7amps ie 252watts the eu limit. However it can output 15amps max but I think this only applies to hill cli9mbing etc or acceleration. BTW my uk version only ever did 15mph on the flat unassisted with the derailleur, so your claimed 30kph with nuvinci aint really so bad at all.
Fit a 52 tooth chainwheel and sling the cheapo stock battery, 4 6s lipos fit nicely in the battery compartment and is an easy mod for a great improvement.
off to pub now, -5C outside already so wish me well . this is how I will eventually meet my doom, I guess a helmet may help in keeping the lugs warm.Mebe sometime you kno!

 

[rroland]

The controller is rated at 7amps ie 252watts the eu limit.
Fit a 52 tooth chainwheel and sling the cheapo stock battery, 4 6s lipos fit nicely in the battery compartment and is an easy mod for a great improvement.
My next is the 52 tooth chain wheel if I can fin one.
then the controller upgrade. My ideal would be programmable with a display( Graphic user interface).
I like the idea of the Cycle analyst but hate the 1990's display. Speedict looks good but you always need the smart Phone. I prefer a standalone display and may be a Bluetooth download capability.
Has any one had a look at http://www.emerge-engineering.de
Has a great display. I will contact and find out what is the go fitting to the Zoco Rossa(Tonaro)

 

[Ahoog]

Dont think so guys. The controller is rated at 7amps ie 252watts the eu limit. However it can output 15amps max but I think this only applies to hill cli9mbing etc or acceleration. BTW my uk version only ever did 15mph on the flat unassisted with the derailleur, so your claimed 30kph with nuvinci aint really so bad at all.
Fit a 52 tooth chainwheel and sling the cheapo stock battery, 4 6s lipos fit nicely in the battery compartment and is an easy mod for a great improvement.
off to pub now, -5C outside already so wish me well . this is how I will eventually meet my doom, I guess a helmet may help in keeping the lugs warm.Mebe sometime you kno!

Speaking of cold weather... I've noticed that the battery performance is quite degraded when it's cold. Even at temperatures around +5 C. Right now there is -17 C and my bike is sleeping comfortably in my hall. However, tomorrow I'm taking it to work as usual and I'm sure the battery will get cold during the trip there.
Is there any battery type that will get warm by it self while discharging or do you guys have any suggestion on how to keep the stock battery warm?

 

[Ahoog]

The controller is rated at 7amps ie 252watts the eu limit.
Fit a 52 tooth chainwheel and sling the cheapo stock battery, 4 6s lipos fit nicely in the battery compartment and is an easy mod for a great improvement.
My next is the 52 tooth chain wheel if I can fin one.
then the controller upgrade. My ideal would be programmable with a display( Graphic user interface).
I like the idea of the Cycle analyst but hate the 1990's display. Speedict looks good but you always need the smart Phone. I prefer a standalone display and may be a Bluetooth download capability.
Has any one had a look at http://www.emerge-engineering.de
Has a great display. I will contact and find out what is the go fitting to the Zoco Rossa(Tonaro)

Rumor has it that Speedict has a controller in the works... If it will be released soon I will go for that, otherwise some standard controller and the Speedict ebike device.
I started the other day by getting a ZTE Blade III that will be dedicated for the bike. Normally I have iPhone but the app isn't available on iOS

 

[gorach]

Come on chaps live a little eh, the world's gonna end on the 21st according to that culture of genius the Maya (now extinct).
Your battery does 'self warm' cause of all the little chemicals inside doing their magic, otherwise do as I do and strap a hot water bottle to the battery rack on colder days. As for the Cycle Analyst" 90's style console" that is verging on blasphemy in this particular little sphere.

 

[Ahoog]

Fit a 52 tooth chainwheel and sling the cheapo stock battery, 4 6s lipos fit nicely in the battery compartment and is an easy mod for a great improvement.

Well, this lipo thing seems quite interesting. There are a lot of options when looking at hobbyking.com.
What would you recommend?

And how do you go about charging these? I've read some in the battery section and it seems quite complicated.
Is there a simple plug and play solution to this or would I need 4 computerized chargers?

Did you try this on your bike BTW?

/Anders

PS. Don't get the ZTE Blade III if you want to use a Speedict eBike, the app doesn't work...

 

[gorach]

Anders, RC lipo from Hobbyking and others are a good setup for ebikes because they are small , light, cheapish, and can provide much more current than most other chemistries. I found that four blocks of 22.5v 5a/h turnigy fit in the compartment with a little imagination. With a 52 tooth chainwheel the bike manages a bit over 25mph without stress though I retained the original 42 tooth chainwheel as personally I prefer slower, offroad riding where the torque is really impressive. I rarely use the throttle and rely mostly on the pas and having at least one brake hooked up to the controller as a clutch. You also need a wattmeter of some sort to ensure you stay above 44v, the min safe voltage (15% capacity). Although the lipo blocks are relatively cheap, the charging equip may not be. I bulk charge with a BMS Battery charger set to 50v and 6amps which makes it a quick process, however it is essential to check all 24 of the individual cell voltages every week or so, and if they differ by more than 0.1v or so, which they will from time to time,the individual cells need brought back up to parity by balance charging. so u need one of them as well.These batteries are very volatile and can set your bike or house on fire if you dont treat them properly and with much caution, so best make sure you read up on them and can solder competently as you will have to link them all up using your own connections (XT60 are good and best use high silver solder). I always charge my lipo in a metal container in a shed, just in case.
Our friend ALBAN went the other road using two 36v batteries in parallel and replaced the plastic case with a battery bag of his own construction which looks equally good IMO. He doesn't go much faster but with the shunt mod achieves alot more torque.
Also you should remove the speed limiter, it wont give you much more speed but it stops the motor kicking on and off which is a bit irritating.

 

[ashwright]

Motor speed is related to voltage. So going from 36 to a 48v battery would get you up in the 70rpm (pedal) range.

Yes, getting a higher voltage battery is my next project, but so far I haven't been able to figure out how to get nice batteries into the stock compartment. I want the bike to have a clean look, so no extra battery bags and such.
Maybe I will make a modified battery box from fiberglass later but we'll see.

I would be interested in what you come up with in term of alternative battery boxes.
I have been thinking how to do this. As I want a bigger box to put 48V in, (which I could just fit), but also some extra electronics (the control board for by nuvinci kit, a dc-dc converter for some lights, and some easily accessible fuses).

But I don't know much about working with plastics or fiberglass, so not sure how to develop a bigger box.

 

[Ahoog]

Anders, RC lipo from Hobbyking and others are a good setup for ebikes because they are small , light, cheapish, and can provide much more current than most other chemistries. I found that four blocks of 22.5v 5a/h turnigy fit in the compartment with a little imagination. With a 52 tooth chainwheel the bike manages a bit over 25mph without stress though I retained the original 42 tooth chainwheel as personally I prefer slower, offroad riding where the torque is really impressive. I rarely use the throttle and rely mostly on the pas and having at least one brake hooked up to the controller as a clutch. You also need a wattmeter of some sort to ensure you stay above 44v, the min safe voltage (15% capacity). Although the lipo blocks are relatively cheap, the charging equip may not be. I bulk charge with a BMS Battery charger set to 50v and 6amps which makes it a quick process, however it is essential to check all 24 of the individual cell voltages every week or so, and if they differ by more than 0.1v or so, which they will from time to time,the individual cells need brought back up to parity by balance charging. so u need one of them as well.These batteries are very volatile and can set your bike or house on fire if you dont treat them properly and with much caution, so best make sure you read up on them and can solder competently as you will have to link them all up using your own connections (XT60 are good and best use high silver solder). I always charge my lipo in a metal container in a shed, just in case.
Our friend ALBAN went the other road using two 36v batteries in parallel and replaced the plastic case with a battery bag of his own construction which looks equally good IMO. He doesn't go much faster but with the shunt mod achieves alot more torque.
Also you should remove the speed limiter, it wont give you much more speed but it stops the motor kicking on and off which is a bit irritating.

Very interesting indeed. You don't happen to have pictures of your set up?
After you gave me the idea to actually go down the lipo route I thought about this charger:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=18812
But as I understand it you have something else for your daily charging. Do you have a link to the charger and BMS that you use? Is it as simple as stock charging? To have it like that would be ideal since I use the bike every day
As for a watt meter I will buy the Speedict eBike, it seems nice.

 

[Ahoog]

I would be interested in what you come up with in term of alternative battery boxes.
I have been thinking how to do this. As I want a bigger box to put 48V in, (which I could just fit), but also some extra electronics (the control board for by nuvinci kit, a dc-dc converter for some lights, and some easily accessible fuses).

But I don't know much about working with plastics or fiberglass, so not sure how to develop a bigger box.

Gorach got me very interested in the lipo stuff and that would fit in the stock battery box so I will probably not build anything soon.
However the process should be quite simple. My plan was to take everything out of the original box, fill it with construction foam to build a mould. Extend it a little both on top and in the bottom so that the original lid can still fit and it would still look good on the bike and then use fiberglass.
I still might have to do it to fit additional electronics in it like you and if I do I will definitely post everything about it here