Trouble setting up a CA

[wehey]

Hi folks.
I was hoping someone could help me troubleshoot the setting up of my Cycle Analyst?
I was previously running an Ezee 250rpm geared hub motor with a Baserunner controller headless (throttle wired directly to the Baserunner) and all was well with the world.
I recently added a Cycle Analyst and it’s been a bit of a puzzle to me.
The CA is plugged into the Baserunner and the throttle is plugged into the CA now. I don’t have a PAS as of yet.
The manual says that in the Speedometer setting the “Poles” should be set to 6 for my Ezee motor and my wheel circumference should be 2115mm (26 inch wheel with 2.25 tyre)
When I use this setting the wheel pulses when I apply throttle and the speedo reads something crazy like 140mph.
I have tried rotating the wheel by hand to count the amount of poles during 1 rotation of the wheel but the indicator does nothing, it doesn’t switch at all.
To get the motor to run smoothly I have increased the poles to 30 and it runs fine.
When out on the road the speedo only displays a reading when power is applied to the motor and I get 0 when just freewheeling or pedalling without assistance.
I have had to calibrate the wheel circumference to 725mm to get anywhere near the correct speedo reading when applying power.
Any ideas what I’m doing wrong?

 

[DanGT86]

The EZ motor is geared so the motor core where the poles are being counted spins probably 5-6 times for every one revolution of the actual wheel.

You could lie to the CA about the number of poles by a factor of the gear ratio like (6 poles x 5 to 1 gearing= 30 poles)
Or I think the CA has a place where you tell it the gear ratio to correct the speed reading. Although I am not sure if I am thinking of a different system. It should be in the manual or I can check when I get home.

As for coasting, the geared motor freewheels in the forward direction. When you coast the motor is not spinning at all despite the hub and wheel turning. So if you are reading speed from the motor it will always show zero when you are off the throttle.

If you measured the hall sensor switching with a volt meter you would have to spin the motor backwards by hand to count the pole switching per revolution.

You can convert the CA to a magnetic pickup on the spokes and get correct speed that way or just adjust the settings for the gear ratios and live with the lack of speed reading while coasting.

My info above is general for most motors. I would not be surprised if Grin put a separate speed sensor on the motor to avoid this problem. Seems to me it would become an issue when using pedal assist and torque sensing.

 

[wehey]

The EZ motor is geared so the motor core where the poles are being counted spins probably 5-6 times for every one revolution of the actual wheel.

You could lie to the CA about the number of poles by a factor of the gear ratio like (6 poles x 5 to 1 gearing= 30 poles)
Or I think the CA has a place where you tell it the gear ratio to correct the speed reading. Although I am not sure if I am thinking of a different system. It should be in the manual or I can check when I get home.

As for coasting, the geared motor freewheels in the forward direction. When you coast the motor is not spinning at all despite the hub and wheel turning. So if you are reading speed from the motor it will always show zero when you are off the throttle.

If you measured the hall sensor switching with a volt meter you would have to spin the motor backwards by hand to count the pole switching per revolution.

You can convert the CA to a magnetic pickup on the spokes and get correct speed that way or just adjust the settings for the gear ratios and live with the lack of speed reading while coasting.

My info above is general for most motors. I would not be surprised if Grin put a separate speed sensor on the motor to avoid this problem. Seems to me it would become an issue when using pedal assist and torque sensing.

Thanks for the reply.
when I got the motor I had to connect an L10 connector to it to make it compatible with the Baserunner,
Along with the usual hall and phase wires there was an additional white wire. I contacted the seller but he didn’t know what it was for. I wonder if it was a speed sensor wire, or if not a temp sensor?

 

[E-HP]

when I got the motor I had to connect an L10 connector to it to make it compatible with the Baserunner,

What connector did the motor have originally? The ezees have a speed sensor, and the baserunner is supposed to automatically identify if a speed sensor is present when connecting it to the motor. Are you saying you have an extension or adapter between the motor connector and the baserunner?

 

[wehey]

What connector did the motor have originally? The ezees have a speed sensor, and the baserunner is supposed to automatically identify if a speed sensor is present when connecting it to the motor. Are you saying you have an extension or adapter between the motor connector and the baserunner?

The motor didnt come with an L10 (it wasn’t bought from Grin)
i cant remember what the connector was exactly but I stripped it back to bare wires and soldered in an L10 to match the Baserunner

 

[E-HP]

On the motor sold by Grin, the white wire is speed. If that wasn't connected to the L10, then the controller will default to using the hall sensors, that only provide speed under power.

 

[wehey]

On the motor sold by Grin, the white wire is speed. If that wasn't connected to the L10, then the controller will default to using the hall sensors, that only provide speed under power.

Excellent, that’s exactly what’s happening…. That helps a ton.!
so maybe my next job is to wire the white wire back into the loom and see if that helps things?

 

[amberwolf]

Also, the BR and PR controllers can automatically switch to using the hall sensor from the motor under various conditions *even if the wheel speed sensor is attached and working*.

When they do this, they may still be using the speed sensor settings for the wheel sensor, and misbehavior can occur.

If you want the CA to always and only use the wheel speed sensor, wire that direclty to the CA.

I don't know if there is a way to force the BR or PR to only and always use the wheel speed sensor...but there is a thread around here from a year or two ago that ended up being this particular problem causing their issues, and they might have more info about that. I dont' recall whose thread it was, so I don't have a link.

 

[wehey]

On the motor sold by Grin, the white wire is speed. If that wasn't connected to the L10, then the controller will default to using the hall sensors, that only provide speed under power.

Bingo……
I connected the white wire back into the loom and now it works perfectly..
thanks for all the help

 

[E-HP]

Bingo……
I connected the white wire back into the loom and now it works perfectly..
thanks for all the help

Excellent! Now go out and have fun riding!
Stay safe.

 

[Ypedal]

On this topic.. as i am actively right now trying to solve this .

The Baserunner with Z9 connector uses " mux something " to read both Temps and Speed from the White wire.

see 7.10.1::

https://ebikes.ca/amfile/file/download/file/318/

My old eZee rear motor has no speed magnets/hall sensor .. so i tried adding a basic spoke magnet and magnet-pickup ( not a hall sensor.. ) and it's no bueno.. the cycle analyst shows 2000 mph and the power is cut back.

Autotune in the software works fine, confirms motor and hall sensors are ' ok '

i tried setting the " wheel speed sensor, pulses per rev " to 1 ( from the default 0 ) .. still no go

 

[E-HP]

On this topic.. as i am actively right now trying to solve this .

The Baserunner with Z9 connector uses " mux something " to read both Temps and Speed from the White wire.

see 7.10.1::

https://ebikes.ca/amfile/file/download/file/318/

My old eZee rear motor has no speed magnets/hall sensor .. so i tried adding a basic spoke magnet and magnet-pickup ( not a hall sensor.. ) and it's no bueno.. the cycle analyst shows 2000 mph and the power is cut back.

Autotune in the software works fine, confirms motor and hall sensors are ' ok '

i tried setting the " wheel speed sensor, pulses per rev " to 1 ( from the default 0 ) .. still no go

Did you follow the guide from Grin?

https://ebikes.ca/amfile/file/download/file/29/product/297/

 

[Ypedal]

I have just finished doing that.. and am up and running.

Would have been nice to tap into the harness at the Z9 instead of breaking the seal on the CA.. but this bike needs to get done and move on to the next one for now lol.. emailed grin to ask if there are methods i am not aware of.. will update this thread if i get an answer.

 

[amberwolf]

Something to note: Based on various posts, in at least some versions of PR (and probably BR), if you are using a speed sensor separate from the motor halls, and the sensor output is not read correctly for a certain amount of time (for any reason, even including too slow a speed so no input for long enough), the controller will auto-revert to reading the motor position halls, and sending the *hall* output to the speed output wire from the controller (that goes to the CA or other speedo display) instead of the real speed sensor output. I know of no way to override this behavior, based on those posts. (sorry I don't have a link).

So...if you ever run into wildly erroneous speed data under very low speed conditions, that might be why.

OOPs....in trying to find a link I found I already posted this up above in this same thread. Trouble setting up a CA