TSDZ16, 11/34 cassette, 46T Ring - Unstable Motor

[OutbackIdaho]

Greetings from Idaho

Had a Bafang M625 for 5 years but batteries became extinct. Decided I had enough of ghost pedaling. Swapped the Greenspeed Magnum XL over to a TSDZ16 motor. Have been working on this all through my staycation to not much avail. Cannot get past 10 MPH no matter the speed setting on a EKD01 display.
Note: Am quite aware of the torque differences on the Nuvinci (60 nm) and TSDZ16 (160 nm).
Came here because this forum is quite famous, and a lot of experienced individuals reside here.


Bought my TSDZ16 from Johnny Nerd Out along with two 48V 17.5Ah batteries. Have no issues getting to 10 MPH, and the speed was increased to 35 MPH, although had a higher setting with no change. I don't plan on going over 28 MPH if I can help it, cant wheels are scary at that speed.

What I have tried or done"

• It's not in Street Mode, is currently at its maximum near maximum speed of 35 MPH.
• Have it set to 20" wheel size, even tried 21" as I have 20 x 2.15 Schwalbe Pick-Up Cargo E-bike tires. 1640 circumference.
• Have tried moving the speed sensor from 3/4" to up close and personal, no change. Have a Bosch magnet to install that just came in.
• Mode 5 gives an easier pedal, yet no speed increase past 10 MPH. Feels like the display/motor is not unlocking, and I'm ghost pedaling at 10 MPH...
• Does not matter what mode I am in, there is no sustain in power nor any speed increase. When my personal speed lowers the power kicks back in at 5 MPH.
• Have spun the snot out of the pedals and no change. Think I do 50 to 60 RPM on my own. Plodding along or fast pedaling makes zero difference to output.
• Throttle really gets with the program and it zooms up with maybe half a turn of the chainring. Boom! Stops at 16 MPH. Again, feels like something is not unlocked.
• Have satisfactory get up and go from pedaling anyhow as was used to that on the M625.
• Have tried various gear ratios on the n380. The hub is still functioning.
• Put on the 42T chainring when I was assembling the motor. Do have a stock 44T chainring, but the 42T is more sleek.
• Speed sensor is on the back wheel. Used a nylon bracket with a speed sensor mount to offer better angles to spoke/magnet.
• EKD01 has SW: EKD01_TB_N22 & HW: B02NU_V1.01
• Anderson connectors... plan on swapping to XT60's once I can get this thing to get to 16 MPH on its own. (Warranty thing)
• Factory Reset on EKD01 did no good, tried a few times in fact.
• When I had the Bluetooth app connected, it did not show any updates. Bluetooth is disabled when I am riding, don't trust it. Heard rumors it can set the motor to Firmware settings, overriding the display.
  

    Can get between 6 to 10 MPH, then no increase no matter what mode I select. I'm perplexed. Bench mode I can hand pedal it to 10 MPH with effort, and bench test works. Actual road test however...

YouTube bench test - Appologize for the breathing, long days - not enough sleep trying to figure this thing out.

YouTube road test, Garmin recorded the on screen displays, camera recorded the EDK01 display & cadence of my plodding. Was tired. Am tired.

Thus I am totally perlexed as how to proceed. Should I install the OEM rear wheel with cogs for a test? About the only thing I can come up with.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

I have almost none of your equipment.
16mph is about 25km/hr. Do you have reason to expect the motor not to be locked to EU/AU standard?
What happens when you set the wheel diameter to 10" or 12"?

 

[OutbackIdaho]

Street Speed: It has been unlocked in the hidden menu area already.
Wheel Diameter on other settings: Incorrect speed readings, no change in actual speed higher or lower. Motor still cuts out. Have a Garmin Explorer to use for speed, and while the display was incorrect, then Garmin showed the motor cut out at 10 MPH.

Not sure if the cut off is in the display or the motor. From what Google AI reads, 15 KM is 10 MPH. Something isn't getting reset, or there is another issue.

What is the maximum load the TSDZ16 can handle?

N380 started knocking on throttle today, so putting the original wheel back on and going back to a derailleur and cogs. *sigh*

 

[offGridDownUnder]

putting the original wheel back on and going back to a derailleur and cogs

Well, you'll find out if the problem persists.

 

[Apartunis]

Are you certain your NuVinci is shifting? If it is stuck in a low ratio then it may impose a mechanical limit on how fast the trike can move under motor power.

 

[OutbackIdaho]

After parts, shift sensor, rear derailleur cable kit, 8 speed twist shift, and other parts arrived I swapped the NuVinci n380 out. Put in the original 9 speed cassette wheel in. Was my first rear derailleur installation from nothing to work from other than a couple of videos and a lot of trail and error. Getting into 9th gear was a bear, yet I finally got the derailleur to cooperate after rerouting the cable to go over the boom instead of underneath. Put the shift sensor on top of the boom too.

Once everything was working was able to get in the 14 MPH range on mode 3. Mode 5 was a bit much and I was almost back to ghost pedaling. Nice forceful street crossing ability.

Got shots of 16 MPH pedaling, was really working that out. Then did a throttle test which I was exceeding 27 MPH and it was slowly climbing. Said that was enough, and backed off.

It was the n380 that was holding me back afterall.

Note: Have a 9 speed cassette yet also have 20 x 2.15 tire. 1st gear is not physically attainable, thus why I went with an 8 speed shifter.

 

[Papa]

Note: Have a 9 speed cassette yet also have 20 x 2.15 tire. 1st gear is not physically attainable, thus why I went with an 8 speed shifter.

You should be pairing 8spd shifters w/8spd cassettes - Likewise, 9spd shifters w/9spd cassettes only. Cassette sprocket spacing is different between 8 and 9spd.

 

[OutbackIdaho]

Ahh! Thank you.

At the time I could not locate any 9 speed twist shifters on Amazon. Only 3, 4, 6, 7, 8.

Used Google AI's deep search function and found there is one option, an SRAM (SLS804) Centera 9-Speed Twist Rear Shifter. One I found the model number, SLS804, the were offers from more places. Went through Performance Bicycle as Amazon's only option is a week and a half away from California.

With the conglomerence of items on the right handle there is no physical place to put a trigger shifter. Something already is occupying the space, or would cause issues to even try to install something else there.

For now I have a shifter. And on that, want to go for a ride before it rains again.

 

[lnanek]

The Centera is really badly made. Has a screw that goes directly into the handlebar instead of tightening a p-clip. I'd take an old used Rocket twist shifter off eBay any day. Any of the named SRAM twist shifters have the Shimano pull ratio needed. The numbered ones used a different pull ratio.

 

[OutbackIdaho]

Are there any recommended rear IGH that would work well with the TSDZ16?
Like the 3X3 Nine, but the price is a bit more than I want to spend. Which also means a Rohloff is untouchable.

This 64 y/o kid misses the NuVinci n380, yet went with a Torque motor for better exercise and hopefully will lose more weight than with the previous cadence motor.

Had an M625 that came at a time while recovering from a near deadly virus that did a number on my organic engine. It gave me new hope, and slowly got me in better shape over the next 8 months. Got several hundred, maybe even a thousand wonderful miles in places since. Rode up in Kellogg, Idaho TOT rides, and the upper Weiser River Trail (MUP). And a few other surfaced trail systems.
Yet I then too missed the torque motor of the TSDZ2 I originally had and it died after 110 miles. Tongsheng did not have a 1,000 watt motor then.

So I swapped over to this TSDZ16 to gain better health and improve my leg muscles. With a maintenance dose of Wegovy I was losing a few extra pounds using the cadence motor, and am really hoping the torque motor will provide better results, and I prefer the bionic legs experience over ghost pedaling.

Would like to eventually get a decent rear IGH. Not looking for excessive speed, as 20 MPH is plenty fast. Been to 31 MPH and am not a fan of going over 28 MPH on the cant wheels. I prefer to hang around 16 MPH if I have any say in it, maybe 8 to 14 on a MUP trail.

Have any recommendations?

 

[OutbackIdaho]

Have 5 modes, yet the only difference I can feel is the assist modes get peppier to 12 MPH. With a lot of effort, by pulling back on the pedals as well as mashing I can get up to 14 MPH, but that's a serious workout. Been to 16 MPH a few times on a slight incline.

Can feel assist going up hills, and inclines. Though most of the time I downshift on most of these rural roads. 5% to 8% is common.

On the flats I get to 12 1/2 MPH to 13 MPH and then I am spinning out. Does not make any sense at all to me. Been using Mode 3 as it feels about right from stop to go to cross roads, or when using the throttle.

Throttle wise it gets to 27 MPH before it cuts out. Weird that. The setting shows it is not on limited speed, yet it sure feels like it at times.

Pedaling seems okay at sub-light speed, 6 to 10 MPH. When pedaling faster, can feel the slight assist kick off at 12 1/3 to 13 MPH, and then the pedals are spinning and I have nothing to pedal against, no resistance. I tried spinning faster, but can only do that to a point and speed only decreases. Once I hit 12 MPH can feel a slight boost-up again, which is short lived.

Have thrown the motor to Mode 5 where I was told uprights are flying at 25 MPH and that their battery does not last as long. I did a 33.5 mile trip last Sunday and I did not even use up one of the two 17.5Ah 48V batteries. Throttle was where I saw the drain in battery, but I did not buy a torque assist motor to use throttle.

Here's the Garmin weblink of that ride: Fruitland Road Cycling

I just do NOT understand why this motor cannot reach at least 18 MPH. Speed sensor is working, have a Bosch magnet on there to for its superior spoke mount design.

Am going to install the 44T chainring that came with the kit, and bought a 46T chainring from AliExpress as a medium point to see where to go next. Was considering going to an Alfine hub, as I miss the NuVinci n380 hub that I had - has too much torque for that hub.

Looking for some leads, what to try next, hoping for something I missed.

So I broke the 10 MPH thing, but still stuck in the gutter so to speak, as I'm now stuck at 13 MPH.
Is it the chainring, the motor just not meshing together to give me something to pedal against, or a bad motor?

Trying to get this through Johnny Nerdout, where I bought the motor kit from. Making sure I did not miss something that could be the problem to this slow pedaling thing.

The 9 speed shifter did come in and is installed. Seems to have an issue coming down from 1st to 2nd, as it drops to third, but I can click it back up. Not overly crazy about this new SRAM shifter, takes effort to go to the lower (wider) gears. 8th gear feels better than 9th.
Move the fender over and was able to reach 1st gear, not that I use it much, Did on a couple of hills last Sunday.

/sigh

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Would like to eventually get a decent rear IGH

The Shimano hubs are well thought of, with some caveats. I had an Alfine 8 on a previous bicycle.

Note that the 8 speed Shimano has a 1:1 thru path (in 5th, I think?), so no gear loss. The Alfine 11 has no straight thru selection, so there will always be some gear loss.

Nexus: less expensive
Alfine: more costly, higher grade

Read up on the accepted torque inputs, etc. before choosing.

Um. Your motor has 160Nm torque? Why?

If your motor uses the gears, why would you need that?

 

[OutbackIdaho]

Hubs are easier to manage and often can have gears swapped when cogs cannot. It's easier with a decent hub.

Ask Tongsheng why they have 160 nm torque. I did not make the motor. Figured at 1,000 watts it should be like the older TSDZ2 I used to have but was under-powered and did not last long. Gave Tongsheng another chance. Starting to think I should of stayed cadence, but I wanted better exercise over ghost pedaling, but I wanted also wanted decent speed.

The Supplier to the vendor I bought it from thinks the display got reset to limited speed mode, but the videos clearly show the speedometer has a maximum of 59 MPH with a 37 MPH notation about 60% the way up.

Think I will reflash the EKD01 display before I ride again, and going to install the 44T chainring. Do have a 46T coming in. Had a 46T on the previous M625 cadence motor.

 

[Apartunis]

Hubs are easier to manage and often can have gears swapped when cogs cannot.

Chainrings are easy to swap and that works with derailleur gears.

I like internal gear hubs but changing ranges is not one of their advantages.

 

[OutbackIdaho]

Seems with each upgrade I gain 2 MPH more before the motor's clutch disengages... and there's nothing felt with the pedals until the speed drops or I go up an incline of some sort. Downhill, don't have any power on/with the pedals.

42T with NuVinci n380 gave me 10 MPH before clutch disengaged.
42T with 11/34 9 speed cassette gave me 12 1/2 to 13 MPH before the clutch poofed on me.
44T with 11/34 9 speed cassette gave me 16 MPH before the clutch started to feel feathery, and by 17 MPH I had nothing to pedal with/against until speed dropped.

Rotated the motor up against the front derailleur and used the two brackets that came with the motor, along with two spacers, a nylock, and an 6mm bolt to fashion a brace that actually worked.

Throttle's new maximum speed is 28 MPH

 

[docw009]

When you reach the max pedal speed, there's no more assist? If you back off on the cadence, motor comes back on? Does the TSD16 have a menu like the TSDZ2B where we could read the torque sensor at rest and with foorce on the pedals?

How about just unplugging the speed sensor for a test ride? On the TSD22, the sensor signal could be very noisy, On other TSDZ2 forums, there were many complaints on inconsistent assist until the magnet spacing was adjusted. You're using a different magnet, so whatever was recommended on the manual may not work.

You did say it works on throttle, but the firmware may bypass its torque sensor algorithjm when it detects throttle signal. The TS calculations could be influenced by a glitchy speed reading. which the display smooths out,

 

[OutbackIdaho]

Menu is fairly locked down. There is a firmware update that has no Advanced Settings for the Varstrom TSDS unless you have a CAN version -- then that one has an Advanced Menu.

Unfortunately I have so much stuff plugged into the main PC that the Varstrom Updater Tool cannot detect the USB port no matter which one I tried using. Thus the updater fails.

Supposed to use a USB-A to USB-C Data cord. Ordered a kit to detect what each patch cord is and shows data transmission speed, and ordered a USB-A to USB-C Data cable with it too.

Have a laptop that was recently rebuilt. Installed the program, yet it will not run as it cannot locate certain DLL files.... so have to get it worked out as it only has 3 USB-A ports, one blue rest are standard.

No idea why the CAN versions get the Advanced Settings option but the others do not.


So, was sent a message on one of the forums that there is an Open Version of the EKD01 on Amazon. Well, I found an EKD01 with 9 PAS, but the listing claims it only works with Bafang motors -- not any others. Looks like the same green round plug, supposedly sold by Varstrom.


Have a different magnet cause I need the thing to stay put. Those round things cannot be tightened down as the slot is too shallow and the material gives too easily. EKD01 display and Garmin Edge Explorer only differ by 0.01 which the display is reading from the rear wheel, and the Garmin is using GPS data, thus a 0.01 latency is no biggy. Cannot move the magnet closer as the speed sensor goes nuts. It is working just fine at its current distance.
Did have the round one on before and the magnet needed to be closer but it moved too much. Reason why it was replaced.

The clutch goes out a set area. But increasing gears I gained roughly 2 MPH more, but the clutch still keeps going out. After that happens the only thing I can do is pull back on the pedals which really hurts various leg muscles; the gain is pitiful.


Display speed reading is spot on. It works and the Garmin confirms it. It is not the speed sensor. Unplugging the speed sensor cord only makes riding work and cuts off after 10 minutes (maximum setting). Even though the motor is working, the time-out seems to be based on the speed sensor. There is no option to bypass that on TSDZ.

Was told the EKD01 on TSDZ has many settings blocked so people would not abuse the motor & settings. So we got what we get.

 

[OutbackIdaho]

Now to brave the heatwave to record a video for the vendor and their supplier. Have to record a video to back my end up.

My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@JamesMiller__Outback_Idaho

Thinking I might take on Bluff Road's hill both ways. Going back up is going to be a challenge since not having a hub to drop a gear fast enough, have to downshift before it gets ugly.

 

[OutbackIdaho]

This was presented to me...

You are experiencing a common limitation with the Tongsheng TSDZ16/TSDZ2 mid-drive systems when used with specific gearing and wheel sizes. The specific cutoff of drivetrain resistance (or pedal "dead zones") is caused by a mismatch between the motor's internal RPM limits, your wheel size, and your drivetrain gear ratios, resulting in pedal cadence lock-out. [1]
The TSDZ16 has an internal geared drivetrain limit. Because you are using very small 20-inch wheels, the bicycle travels a much shorter distance per wheel rotation than it would with a standard 26-inch or 700c wheel. As you pedal faster to reach higher speeds, your crank cadence (RPM) has to be incredibly fast to keep the bicycle moving.

Why the Cutoff Occurs at Your Exact Speeds
The motor is designed to assist up to a certain maximum internal RPM. When the wheel is turning so fast that your required pedaling cadence exceeds the motor's internal limits, the torque sensor stops detecting your regular pedal input as "drivetrain resistance," or the motor control board rapidly cuts assistance to prevent internal over-revving.
The progression of your modifications proves this math is the limiting factor:

1. Nuvinci n380 & 42T Chainring (10 MPH limit): The Nuvinci has an internal gear range. At 10 MPH on a 20-inch wheel, your cadence pushed above 90 - 100 RPM, hitting the motor's comfort/rev limit and dropping the resistance.
2. 11/34T 9-speed Cassette & 42T Chainring (13 MPH limit): Gearing up mechanically allowed you to achieve 13 MPH before your pedals "spun out."
3. 11/34T 9-speed Cassette & 44T Chainring (16 MPH limit): Moving to a larger chainring requires a harder push and lowers your cadence for any given speed. This dropped your cadence back down into the motor's "sweet spot" and allowed you to reach 16 MPH before maxing out the RPM threshold.

How to Fix It
Because you are on a recumbent trike, you have plenty of room for an extended chain line. To eliminate the resistance loss at higher speeds, you need to gear the bike even "taller" so your feet spin at a relaxed cadence while the bike goes fast.

• Increase Your Chainring Size: Move up to a 52T or 56T chainring. This forces your legs to push harder at a lower, more sustainable RPM, keeping you well within the motor's active torque band. [1]
• Tire Size Programming: If you haven't already, make sure your display is properly programmed for a 20-inch wheel circumference. If the system thinks you have standard wheels, it will limit your assistance based on incorrect speed-to-cadence calibrations. [1, 2]
• Check the Speed Sensor: A loose speed sensor magnet can sometimes cause erratic motor cutouts if it misreads your wheel speed relative to your pedaling. The magnet should be roughly 10 mm away from the sensor head.
  
  
  Speed Sensor is reading correctly. Tire size and the speed limiter was taken care of long ago. One suggestion was to change the wheel size to 16 inch... but that would give an inaccurate odometer reading and no doubt throw off the EKD01's speed readout.
  
  Was also suggested to get a display that allows PAS settings to be adjusted, and having 9 modes verses the 5. However was not given any details as to what mysterious displays these are. I cannot adjust the PAS settings nor give the display more modes. Varstrom is hiding those abilities.

 

[OutbackIdaho]

The vendor thinks I would be better off with a 50+ toothed chainring. I cannot imagine pedaling on rolling hills, or 3% grades with such a beast. THink my leg muscles wold snap!

Does any other recumbent rider/triker use a 50T to 56T chainring?!?

 

[lnanek]

I use a 75t chain wheel ( Amazon.com ) with an 11t rear cog on my 20x4" tire fat bike. Allows me to still feel some pedaling resistance and get some exercise at 30mph.

 

[OutbackIdaho]

Took the GS Magnum XL out last Sunday. Was quite hot, and no cool breeze. Everything was this masking waves of heat when the breeze did blow. Only nearer the river was it better. My lungs did not care for the air much, but I did take on the rolling hills on Bluff Road in New Plymouth, Idaho. One of The Bluff's attractions is the drop that starts out at 3% and descends to 5% near the middle. Can get to 30 MPH rather quickly.

Did not take the entire Bluff Road as sunlight was fading and the weather was slightly more bearable.

Part 1:

Part 2:

Surprisingly the TSDZ16 did exceptionally well going up the hill on the return. 10+ MPH in Mode 5, gear 5. Crested in 7th.

 

[OutbackIdaho]

46T chainring came in. Getting ready for a ride.

 

[OutbackIdaho]

Similar issues that I had with the 44T. Varies on how I pedal. Discovered a new-to-me technique for recumbent trikes.

• Plodding along can lose drivetrain resistance as low as 15.8 MPH. If i get aggressive can hit 18 before it gets mushy.
• If I hammer it on the perspective like I am on a MTB, although slightly on an angle, and mash down thrustfully ((maybe add some pulling on the return (SPD secret)) I can get to 20+ WITH A LOT OF WORK being laid back.
• Did manage to hit 21 MPH on Mode 3. Cannot use Mode 4 or 5 as it revs up the RPMs too fast on the TSDZ16.
• Mode 4 is iffy on its assist, and mode 5 will top me out fast on RPMs. Mode 5 for climbing hills. 4 Is okay on flats if I pedal more like a bike than a trike, in and out, not engaging all fully around the chainring.
• If I want to take it easy and plod along, Mode 1 to 3 is fine, middle cassette gear spins out at 15 MPH.

Overall I think the 44T covers it well on a recumbent trike that does take on some hills.
If all out flat, maybe a 52T if you can find one. Was barely able to find a 46T offset chainring. Not finding anything with more teeth.

 

[OutbackIdaho]

Was trying to locate a 50T chainring for the TSDZ16, just not found anything past the 48T that really takes a lot of humping to get to 20 MPH. Would like to attain 20 MPH without a lot of strenuous effort.

Not looking to be a speed demon. It is mostly the flats is where this motor lacks oomph. Unless there is some sort of grade it falls short on support when riding laid back.