Turnigy Monster 12S 200A ESC

[methods]

As you all know this is not my cup of tea... but here it is for you:

The latest and greatest 200A 12S RC Controller

I wonder if the thermal protection or over-current protection will make it last a little longer?


Have at it boys. I will stick to my sensors.

-methods

 

[Grinhill]

I'm tempted, but it's not super-cheap. I think I'll wait for someone else to try first.

 

[liveforphysics]

Sensored is the only way to go. For $168, it's not too bad for something to replace people burning up castle 110s. At least it's a new board this time, vs the last 3 models 100/120/140 which all used the same FET boards, just various states of component population... lol

 

[AussieJester]

I will stick to my sensors.

-methods

Why do they have to be so damn big though Patrick? Surely someone of your experience can design something
from scratch the size of a pack of smokes rather than beefing up current offerings or is
what they have now bout as small as it gets for these type controllers?

Ill give the Turnigy a bash if i blow the HV110 or it has sync issues as Burtie is experiencing with the
Turnigy/CC HV110 ESC. Pretty much the same price and being Turnigy you would think they are compatible
with the Turnigy Kv130 motor..

KiM

 

[gwhy!]

I will stick to my sensors.

-methods

Why do they have to be so damn big though Patrick? Surely someone of your experience can design something
from scratch the size of a pack of smokes rather than beefing up current offerings or is
what they have now bout as small as it gets for these type controllers?

Ill give the Turnigy a bash if i blow the HV110 or it has sync issues as Burtie is experiencing with the
Turnigy/CC HV110 ESC. Pretty much the same price and being Turnigy you would think they are compatible
with the Turnigy Kv130 motor..

KiM

The small 6 fet controllers are only a little larger than the size of the rc esc but are in a box. My Turnigy hv100 now that its modded with extra caps and put into a case with a large heatsink is actually bigger than the 6fet controller.

 

[AussieJester]

The small 6 fet controllers are only a little larger than the size of the rc esc but are in a box.r.

Aaagh ok...So these 6 fet controllers can sustain constant 200 amp and 240 amp peaks can they? So why the need for house brick size controllers then? Just curious not my area of expertise.. The first thing i spot after the rolls of duct tape holding on batteries on some rides is these HUGE freakin controller boxes i'm just curious why they are so big? Isn't there a way to make them the size of my Kelly brushed controller for example? its fully programmable 2oo amp constant controller and is the size of two packs of smokes on top of each other and costs under 200 bucks :-S All the brushless controllers are HUGE in comparison and pricey im just curious why this is the case.

KiM

 

[gwhy!]

The small 6 fet controllers are only a little larger than the size of the rc esc but are in a box.r.

Aaagh ok...So these 6 fet controllers can sustain constant 200 amp and 240 amp peaks can they? So why the need for house brick size controllers then? Just curious not my area of expertise.. The first thing i spot after the rolls of duct tape holding on batteries on some rides is these HUGE freakin controller boxes i'm just curious why they are so big? Isn't there a way to make them the size of my Kelly brushed controller for example? its fully programmable 2oo amp constant controller and is the size of two packs of smokes on top of each other and costs under 200 bucks :-S All the brushless controllers are HUGE in comparison and pricey im just curious why this is the case.

KiM

dont see why they can not sustain 200A if the pcb tracks are upto it and fitted with fets that can handle the current. Its all about cost the little 6 fet controllers are only about £30ukp delivered. I just upgraded mine at a cost of £16 to be able to handle 120A sustained at upto 75v, so the spec of my little 6fet controller is now nearly the same spec as the new turnigy 200a esc but at about a third of the cost and about the same size and with a lot more functionality. They dont need to be big but it makes them a lot easier to make and service.

 

[methods]

Any one of us could design a better controller but it is not economically feasible.
If I did pour my heart and soul into a custom controller it would probably require that I invest $10k of my own money and make it my full time job.
My prices would still be as high as Kelly
It is a long story dude.... All you need to know is that somehow China can make stuff for an order of magnitude cheaper than we can here in the US.

Big is cheap, easy, and effective.
Here are just a few reasons:

* PCB Board
A big board can be double sided. This is a very cheap PCB board to make. If you want to cut the size in half then you would need at least a 4 layer board. If you want to go even smaller you could get up to 10 layer board. These boards are very expensive to produce.

* Fets
It is cheaper for the Chinese to design for lots of really crappy fets in parallel rather than 6 really high quality fets. This requires more space.

* Heat
Heat management is a lot easier with a big box. If you want to make it tiny you need some serious airflow. That 200A ESC is designed for an airplane and it will require a 30mph breeze blowing over it to even hope to survive at 200A

* High Voltage
There are two major ways to make low voltage from high voltage: Expensive and bulky. These controllers I work on use 10W of resistance to handle 100V inputs. That Turigy would need to use a buck circuit (expensive).

* Features
Notice how many wires are coming out of my controller... Throttle, Brake, reverse, Pedal Sense, Cruise control, Cycle Analyst, Programming, Power, Phase, Hall, Power switch, Speed switch..... Just to mate that many cables to a board you need space. The smaller the board gets the more layers you need. This PCB is dirt cheap.

* Assembly Labor
This board is partially populated by machine but a good deal of the work is done by slave labor. If you step down to an ultra tiny design you have to wrap the entire design around automated assembly. Amazingly enough - it is cheaper to have people populate these in china than to have a machine do it.

* Simplicity
You dont have to be a genius to design one of these two sided ebike PCB's. Design, Testing, and redesign is simple. If you start to get into a complicated PCB design every aspect of production becomes more expensive.

* Cost
Apples for apples my controller is much cheaper. Hobby city sells items for a tiny profit... Basically if you contact the manufacturer directly you will often find that if you try to purchase 100 units the price wont be that much lower than the HC price. That said -> If you compare that price to the price you would pay for a comperable ebike controller in quantity the ebike controllers are about 1/2 the price. The reason my controller is so expensive is because I have taken the time to convert it from unreliable crap to highly reliable goodness.

Those are a few of the reasons.
If this were my full time job then - yes - I could design a pocket size 100V 100A controller.
Justin is doing this now - but you will be disappointed when you see the power levels.

In my opinion the Grand Slam of all ebike products has been the CA
This is the rare case where an design has just been a huge success
(though possibly not a financial success for Justin.... He works VERY hard at customer support)

-methods

 

[Thud]

Methods,
wow.
I am so glad I checked your link before asking a butt load of noob questions. Size schmize-you have the answer in a package for 3 large? outstanding. (I am e-baying off some crap,then will come a knocking)
Clever plant btw.

off-off topic: is there any imperical data showing the % gains on any re-gen systems.
(the door is open Miles 8) )

 

[liveforphysics]

Any one of us could design a better controller but it is not economically feasible.
If I did pour my heart and soul into a custom controller it would probably require that I invest $10k of my own money and make it my full time job.
-methods

Not if you had the help of a certain Moose.. Then it would be a walk in the park

 

[methods]

No thanks Luke.
Not my cup of tea.
I am a hack, not an entrepreneur.

As far as the regen question above:

My personal opinion is that regen sucks.
Justin on the other hand (a man for whom I have great respect) feels quite differently

I think the major difference is that Justin (and most people) are dealing in low power bikes (<1000W) that actually have a chance of recouping 10%.
For me and my band of hooligans... Since we are dumping 100V 100A every time we twist the throttle regen does nothing but loosen up my drops and heat up my motor.
There is little chance of recouping 1% when I am burning off 1KWh of pack in 15 minutes......

-methods

 

[AussieJester]

For me and my band of hooligans... Since we are dumping 100V 100A every time we twist the throttle

HAHAA and the rest

As alwayz Methods you cleared things up beautifully. Cheers for the detailed response mate.

If your not in it for the $$$ Patrick why not make a decent design up release the schematics who knows one of the vendors in China might pick it up and run with it, end result decent small high volt high amp controller for decent price! No you wont get a cent no you wont get any recognition outside of this community but you will have made a HUGE advance in e-bike tech...just a thought anywayz...I think what you do know is fantastic you spend shit loads of your own dollars to help out people here getting better equipment.

thx again

KiM

 

[methods]

Not my area of expertise. Like I said - I am a hack.
I like to hack other peoples stuff.

And We should reassess my statement that "I am not in it for the money".
Lets say that I am no longer in it to "Lose my ass".
I have a new appreciation of "The cost of customer service" and "Liability"

The design of a controller is the easy part.
Then you have to test it and redesign
Test it and redesign
Test it and redesign

Each of those iterations is expensive and time consuming.

Nothing wrong with the controllers out today.
My 18 fet controller is bad ass.
Who cares if it is the size of a shoe box

Tell you what - You never get something for nothing.
There is a reason why everybody is blowing up those tiny little ESC's....
They were designed to turn a prop which is a very different load than a wheel.

-methods

 

[AussieJester]

There is a reason why everybody is blowing up those tiny little ESC's....
They were designed to turn a prop which is a very different load than a wheel.

-methods

Not everybody ... :: wink :: And i hope i to become one
of them, we only seem to hear about the the ones that DO blow them...
i have Fechters "lil black box" to help protect my HV110
as do many other people we haven't heard alot back from
...ill set the current low and work my way up see how the ESC handles
it...I really dont want to start messing around fixing hall sensors to the outrunner
Either way i MUST get it 'stable' before i even think of adding the second motors in

my transformation to FULL GanGSta status will soon be complete Methy :: evil laugh ::

LOOKOUT...i have you in my sights Patrick :: sits back and works on his evil plan ::

KiM

 

[methods]

Running Fechters box goes a long way toward increasing reliability.
The problem with using these controllers off the shelf is that they are not current limited.
Most ebikes are spoiled by the current limiting built into the controllers.

Coming from an RC background tuning and measuring current was always part of the game
Whenever selecting a new Motor / ESC / Battery / prop combo the first thing that would always happen is that the current and RPM would be measured.
Seems like many ebikers dont know what current they are running (that is dynamic current... I.e. launch current) and most have no idea what RPM their motor is turning vs. where it is most efficient.

The scary thing about current limiting is you can take a high KV motor and a low KV motor, hook them up, and they both appear to "work".
Trouble is that the ultra high kV (aka fast) motor hooked up with a low current limit and high loading reaps havoc on the controller.

-methods

 

[Burtie]

It arrived , Bigger and heavier than I expected, 5 inches long and about 0.33kg.




Very easy to add extra capacitors because the solder pads for the power leads are easily accessible.
The stock controller comes with 5 x 470 uF 63v caps ,one of which had a dry joint.





It appears to have 24 large FETS, I cannot read the type number.







The heatsinks, top and bottom, are attached to the FET board with a thin foam gasket.
The controller board is separate and mounted on about 20 soldered standoff pins.


I will let you know more when I have it running.
Burtie.

 

[liveforphysics]

That thing actually looks pretty good!

Any chance in sweet talking you into getting a part number off one of those FETs? Pretty please!

 

[Burtie]

Only after I blow it up :wink:

 

[AussieJester]

That does look meaty...keen to hear back from you how this goes Burtie

"That thing actually looks pretty good!"

Well... seriously, Luke how many ESC did you think you would need to send back charcoaled and melted before they bought out something beefier for you

KiM

 

[CNCAddict]

They're pretty good ESC's and have the some of the best low speed characteristics I've found. I might sell a higher end version if anyone is interested, with a PC interface and data logging

 

[Thud]

I have one on the bench also, Have not tested it yet.
Has any one spun some motors with their new 200 amp unit yet?

CNCadict- is your version an upgrade of this very unit? I have data logging on my ICE100 & I think it is a usefull addition.

 

[etard]

With all those Caps do we really need to add more?

Bigger might be better in this case, but will it fit in my stocking? :lol:

 

[CNCAddict]

You can read about the ESC's here -> www.hifei.com These are completely different than any other ESC's on hobbyking's webpage. The version hobbyking's selling is the lower end version while the one I am interested in is the "king kong". The king kong is firmware upgradeable which is a nice feature when something unexpected is found. I have only tested the 100A esc, not the 200A. I've talked to hifei about adding in a current control feature but they aren't too interested in the bike market at the moment. Even so, my testing went well and the throttle is nice and smooth.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

The version hobbyking's selling is the lower end version while the one I am interested in is the "king kong". The king kong is firmware upgradeable which is a nice feature when something unexpected is found. I have only tested the 100A esc, not the 200A. I've talked to hifei about adding in a current control feature but they aren't too interested in the bike market at the moment. Even so, my testing went well and the throttle is nice and smooth.

http://www.hifei.com/en/News_View.asp?NewsID=61

＇Kingkong＇ Features:…

5. 200A continous(230A surge)

14. Programmable current limiting(very sensitive/standard/insensitive/disable)

17. Thermal Protection(100 centigrade)

 

[nieles]

i have a very weird problem with this controller. i use the controller with a fechter limiter box.

when i apply the brakes the limiter "cuts" the signal the the controller (i think ik will feed a 1ms signal?)

but when i release the brakes, the controller(and motor) goes to the 3/4 throttle position.

i use the controller on a small e-scooter with an turnigy sk6374 outrunner

what do you guys think is the problem?
the controller or the current limiter?