Upgrading X-treme Cabo.

[Henry111]

I have the X-treme Cabo electric moped, rated at 600W.
Currently it is running on the stock 48V, 20Ah SLA batteries.
Speed cotroller is 48V, 30Am.
Speed on the flats is 22mph. I weigh 150lbs.
But very week climbing hills, and slow pick-up pulling away from a stop.
Tomorrow (Monday, 9/12/2016) I am going to pull out the SLAs and replace with a 48V,14Ah Lithim Ion battery.
Photo of battery attached.
After switching to the Lithium, what kind of improvements should I expect--if any?
I wonder about the lower 14Ah on the Lithium compared to the 20Ah on the SLAs?
Your thoughts please.

 

[Pinesal]

I had an xb-610. It's an earlier version of that bike. I once replaced the battery with a 15ah lifepo4 lithium battery and I surprisingly didn't notice any performance difference. I don't think the particular battery I got could push enough amps to the motor. I think a 20ah battery would have worked better.

I did notice an improvement after upgrading the motor controller though.

 

[Henry111]

I had an xb-610. It's an earlier version of that bike. I once replaced the battery with a 15ah lifepo4 lithium battery and I surprisingly didn't notice any performance difference. I don't think the particular battery I got could push enough amps to the motor. I think a 20ah battery would have worked better.

I did notice an improvement after upgrading the motor controller though.

Today I removed the 48v/20Ah SLA batteries and replaced them with a 48v/14Ah Lithium Ion.
I had to cut away the metal back end of the original battery box in order to make the lithium fit. If anybody cares, I will post photos of how I did it. I got considerably more torque off the line and while climbing. However, part, or all, of that improvement may have just been the result of removing the 60 pounds of SLA batteries. I have yet to test the range. To do that I will strap in another battery (plenty of room) to make sure I get home after using up the main battery.

 

[Pinesal]

I am super interested in your continued adventures in bike upgrades. I used to have almost the exact same bike and am getting a similar replacement bike very soon.

 

[Henry111]

I am super interested in your continued adventures in bike upgrades. I used to have almost the exact same bike and am getting a similar replacement bike very soon.

OK Pinesal, since you are interested I will post some photos (this afternoon or tomorrow) of how and what I have done so far, including how I strap in a second battery to double my range. My ultimate plan is to eventually replace the 48 volt with 60 volt but I need to check further as to the speed controller's ability to handle the 60 volt. I already know the motor can handle it. By the way, I originally had the 500W X-treme 504. Sold it and replaced with this 600W Cabo Cruiser with which I am really happy.

 

[Pinesal]

Awesome. I had an XB610 but it got ruined in a garage fire. I decided not to go with x-treme for the replacement. I went with the GigaByke Groove. I should have it by tomorrow. It's still very similar the the x-treme so I'll be watching this thread closely to see what works for you and what doesn't. Thanks for keeping this updated.

 

[Noq]

Torque, a.k.a. speed off the line and hill climb ability is normally determined by the amount of amperage (current) you're capable of pulling from the system. Therefore, if your controller pulls 30A from the SLA's then pulling 30A from the Li-ions isn't going to make any difference. However, a secondary factor you already mentioned is the weight difference. Being 60lbs lighter will get you off the line faster, albeit at a loss of 6Ah (30%) range in your pack. Again, the weight-difference is in your favor here since you'll use less power by virtue of being lighter, but altogether these are modest differences.

To truly see gains in your torque, I'd suggest you do as Pinesal alluded to and improve your controller. Word of caution: check how much current your batteries are capable of outputting. No sense drawing more than what they can deliver or you'll break something, namely your batteries (assuming you've no BMS limiting current overdraw). My old 60V LiFePO4 26650 pack topped out at 50A (BMS setting) and still kinda sucked on torque, so keep in mind you can't do much without making drastic changes. If you want to play with fire try the shunt mod.

 

[Ianhill]

Just remember if you load a SLA battery at 30amps then the voltage sag at given current will be more than on a lipo say, so using power formula you wouod see you are consumming more watts been at a slightly higher voltage under load so there will be slghtly more available torque and speed, Its why people are raveing about graphene it holds up much better under load giving more available power from the same size pack.

 

[Henry111]

Thanks for all the input folks.
Here are four photos of my installation.
Report and discussion regarding performance will follow in future postings.\

Photo One: Looking forward: The seat has been removed for photography. Note the blue arrow pointing to where I had to hacksaw away a 5-inch tall rear wall of the battery tray in order to fit the long 48V lithium. Note also the Anderson Power Pole connector. This connector was put on the ends of the power wires that were originally attached directly to the SLA pack.

Photo Two: Looking forward: Lithium installed. Pool Noodles keep it in place, plus one bungee cord.

Photo Three: Looking forward: The seat has been remounted and screwed in place. Note the hatch under the (raised seat) that is held in place by snaps.

Photo Four: Looking forward. The hatch has been removed revealing easy access to the Power Pole connectors simply by raising the seat.

There is plenty of room if I want to stack another 48v on top of this one. Switching between them would doubled my range. Even with two 48Vs, the bike is still lighter by 40lbs with the SLAs removed.

 

[Henry111]

What do you suggest in the way of a speed controller upgrade.

Here is a photo of the label on my current stock controller.
When the label says: "Limited current 30..." does that mean that 30 is the most it will put out?
When it says "Undervoltage protection: 42,.,.V" exactly what does that mean?

 

[Pinesal]

The original battery went under the seat?

 

[Pinesal]

What do you suggest in the way of a speed controller upgrade.

Here is a photo of the label on my current stock controller.
When the label says: "Limited current 30..." does that mean that 30 is the most it will put out?
When it says "Undervoltage protection: 42,.,.V" exactly what does that mean?

30 amps is probably the max and not continuous.

The undervoltage means that if your battery pack drops below 42v, the controller will shut off to prevent over discharging the battery.

 

[Henry111]

The original battery went under the seat?

Yes. That area below the blue arrow is the battery tray. It originally held four 48V/20Ah SLA batteries.

 

[Henry111]

Performance report:
Little faster off the line and a little better hill climbing--torque. However, this could just be due to the reduction in weight?
Because Note:
Even with the reduction in weight, the range is considerably reduced--by almost half the distance.
Could this be because the 48V lithium is only a 14Ah, while the 48V SLA was 20Ah?
I was under the impression that a 14Ah lithium was equal to or better than a 20Ah SLA. Unless there is some other explanation for the reduction in range, my impression was very wrong?
Thoughts please.

 

[Ianhill]

I would look into discharging that pack through a watthour meter to see just how much energy is being used, I would guess a dodgy battery by there are you using bms on the pack ? If so whats the cut off voltage is it a 13s pack ? And what cells are used to give a ruff idea of expected performance results, But it shouldn't be half that of SLA it should at least nearly equal it if not last longer when I went from 14ah slas to 16ah lipo I doubled my run time and some.
Slas will deliver their stated capacity over a 20 hour period, if used on a motor they go flat over a shorter period of time so the capacity will never be as high as stated unless your motor draws the power of an led so I'm surprised of your findings there must be a weak cell etc.

 

[Henry111]

I tested using two different 48V batteries with same result.
I also used these two same batteries on standard e-bikes and get two or three times the range than what I get on the moped. Of course, the e-bikes weigh only 55 lbs while the moped weighs 200lbs.
I posted a picture of the speed controller label above: Low voltage: 42.5. 30amp.
Could the battery for some reason be draining while sitting overnight?

 

[Pinesal]

I tested using two different 48V batteries with same result.
I also used these two same batteries on standard e-bikes and get two or three times the range than what I get on the moped. Of course, the e-bikes weigh only 55 lbs while the moped weighs 200lbs.
I posted a picture of the speed controller label above: Low voltage: 42.5. 30amp.
Could the battery for some reason be draining while sitting overnight?

shouldn't be. Maybe the controller on the scooter draws more amps.

 

[Henry111]

This is an electric moped with a key on/off switch. But the lithium battery also has its own on/off key positions.
Question One: If I turn the moped's switch OFF so that the moped does NOT run, but leave the battery key in the "ON" position will the battery run down
Question Two: If I leave the battery key in the "ON" position while charging will the battery still take a charge?
Question Three: What happens if I attempt to charge a lithium battery with an SLa charger and/or the other way around?
A

 

[nutnspecial]

Hi, what type of 'electric moped' is it?

1)Yes, usually very very slowly

2)Yes, and also with the bike switch on

3)No. They're very different charge profiles.

 

[Henry111]

Thanks nutspecial.
The moped is an Xtreme Cobo. I replaced the original 48V SLA battery with two 48V Lithiums to extend the range. When one gets low, I unplug it and plug in the other. This setup not only give me the Lithium advantages, it also saves me about 40 pounds.

 

[Voltron]

If you can hook up both batteries at the same time, it will give you more capacity than using one after the other, as sharing the load won't work the cells as hard.
And the big difference between chargers is that an SLA is always trying to trickle charge after the batteries hit their voltage, which will cook a lithium battery. A lithium charger cuts off completely when the battery is full.

 

[LockH]

Re questions 1 & 2? Possibly "best" investment in electric traction terms is a Volt-Ohm-Amps meter. With probes that you can use to poke around... stuff.

Re #3? SLA chargers might be relatively "dumb" vs "smarter" Li chargers. "Best" ebike investment EVer? A "good" charger. About the LAST thing to "save money" on for a battery-operated... anything.

 

[wesnewell]

3. The battery, or bms, doesn't care what kind of charger you have as long as the max voltage output does not exceed the voltage required, they all output voltage. The only other thing you need to be concerned about is the charger amperage output. Make sure it doesn't exceed the max charge rate of the battery pack or bms.