Using hybrid parts idea.

[liveforphysics]

It seems pretty easy to find a Prius transmission for under $500 shipped to your door. Below are a couple examples:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/04-09-Toyota-Prius-1-5L-CVT-Automatic-Transmission-/200475947956?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ead4c33b4#shId

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Proven-Transmission-2004-05-06-07-08-09-PRIUS-CVT-AUTO-/390234875891?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5adbcfa7f3#ht_2897wt_1165

Why would you want a Prius tranny you ask?

This is what they look like inside (an older version and newer version):

They have a place where the axles/CVs plug into them, so you would only need to make custom mounts and axles, and you could make any FWD car electric if you could figure out a controller that runs both motors correctly as they do in the clever CVT it uses.


Or, Honda Insight motors or Civic hybrid motors have a design that can be stacked as many as needed. 4 Civic hybrid motors all stacked together would be an 80hp continuous motor that could be capable of much more for bursts, and it all bolts right onto the civic hybrid tranny. Of course this option would require 4 controllers for the motors, bu those are also damn cheap. Then it would require the work of making them all controllable and play well together etc.
Insight motors are also thin enough, with the addition of some side plates for bearing supports, you could run one or two of them on a motorcycle.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/00-06-Honda-Insight-Hybrid-Electric-Motor-Engine-IMA-/270628124149?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f02b175f5#ht_686wt_939

Seems like perhaps a better option, or at least another option beyond the standard bolting up a brushed motor to a VW tranny with an adapter plate solution we've all seen so many times.

 

[Arlo1]

The rear wheels of the SRT-4 are just crying for that in the center :wink:

 

[Arlo1]

The copper has to be worth 275 in scrap in the first motor.
How about the controlers? Where do we find them I looked after talking to you on the phone the other night and i can't find them.

 

[liveforphysics]

Gotta beef up your search-fu technique.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2000-2006-Honda-Insight-IMA-Motor-Drive-Module-MDM-/280491503739?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item414e98b07b#ht_785wt_939

 

[Arlo1]

Haha I spelt it wrong.
How much do you think we can push it? It seems to be rated to make 10kw not quit enough for my plans but....? Shunt mod?
I will order one the second I think I can make 50kw with it!

 

[liveforphysics]

No idea my friend. I bought one, so when it comes I will take it apart and check datasheets on the power components and see if they left room to tweak.

Haha I spelt it wrong.
How much do you think we can push it? It seems to be rated to make 10kw not quit enough for my plans but....? Shunt mod?
I will order one the second I think I can make 50kw with it!

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Good idea. If you could find a way to drive the motor drive part of the Toyota HSD on its own you'd have a controller capable of something like 60kW. If using Prius axle parts I'd be inclined to just rip out MG2 and use that on it's own, in a custom oil-filled housing. Should be good for 50 to 60kW peak, maybe 10 to 20kW continuous, with a decent cooling set up.

Instead of the Insight units, what about the Civic Hybrid? I'm guessing that's a similar set up to the Insight, but with a bigger motor and controller. As the Honda hybrid system is a lot simpler than the Toyota one it might make it easier to use.

Jeremy

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

This might be a good way to do it?:
http://99mpg.com/Projectcars/evinsight/
Excerpt:

EV Insight with a Prius heart
Since the day I drove my Insight out of the dealers lot, I have had the idea of turning it into a full electric car. With my new knowledge of the Prius components I have been working with for the UDHEV hybrid classes, I have come up with a simple way to convert the Prius power split transmission into a full EV power combiner. This simple mechanical hack, will allow both MG1 and MG2 to work together in parallel at a 1:1 ratio. The beauty of this system is that the transmission oil pump, and the ICE input shaft will turn with the two MG's, so the transmission has a third input/output shaft.The built in differential and output gearing with parking pawl, makes this a full EV drive system that is ready to go.
The combined HP would bring the system to about 75 HP continuous, with peak possibly over 90.

A hack of the Prius Inverter to drive this new configuration and one could turn a totaled Prius into a power plant for an electric Insight, or electric Prius.

A very nice use of a salvaged Prius...

 

[Harold in CR]

Luke, did you receive the parts for this experiment, yet ?? Updates ?? Yeah, I know, everyone is covered up with day jobs getting in the way of REAL projects

 

[liveforphysics]

Luke, did you receive the parts for this experiment, yet ?? Updates ?? Yeah, I know, everyone is covered up with day jobs getting in the way of REAL projects

Here you go Harold, this is the Honda Insight BLDC controllers guts. They did it all with a single giant IGBT module. They don't even monitor battery current, but monitor all 3 legs of phase current (when you can know all 3 with simple math if you know any 2), and they use 3 caps that are each bigger than a can of coke to do a controller switching less current than many of our ebike stuff.

 

[Harold in CR]

Thanks, Luke. Been doing some reading up on these things. Somewhere ? It said that, if the motors are hooked up a certain way, it was possible to get 44Hp out of it.

Might have been the Insight motor- controller info. Might have also been 2 motors and one controller ?? I was constantly interrupted with phone calls, while I was reading

Sure seems to be a lot of these things sitting around ?? Maybe everyone is afraid of the high voltage + more batteries equation ??

I noticed the Prius is listed as a 1.1 Litre motor transmission ?? The second motor is a generator doing regen, also. Pretty slick set up.

NOW, just need someone to figure out how to do the Electronic hookups. I can handle the mechanical stuff.

 

[peterperkins]

There is a chap on the Insight forum doing some work on Insight IMA motors at present. It has been discussed a few times on IC. He is proposing building his own vector controller to drive the Insight power electronics i believe.

http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/modifications-technical-issues/17932-sanwiching-2x-ima-motors-together-ev-2.html#post172729

I've looked at the system on the insight MK1 with a view to overdriving it some how. The newer Civic IMA motors are rated at about 15kw.

There is a good pdf available about some bench testing done on an IMA motor.

http://info.ornl.gov/sites/publications/files/Pub2642.pdf

IMHO after dumping 40ah of capacity through the motor in my PHEV in around an hour or so. I think the MK1 insight motor can probably cope with around 5kw cont max with some basic cooling. So around 50% duty. The Insight Mk1 drive electronics is based around a 250A 600V IGBT block 8) Although no specific data sheet for it is available due to it being an OEM part.

Luke you pics don't seem to work.

 

[grindz145]

It's still hard to believe that a meager 20KW motor is all that it takes to push a hybrid down the road in electric only mode. Electric torque is amazing.

 

[peterperkins]

Here you go Harold, this is the Honda Insight BLDC controllers guts. They did it all with a single giant IGBT module. They don't even monitor battery current, but monitor all 3 legs of phase current (when you can know all 3 with simple math if you know any 2), and they use 3 caps that are each bigger than a can of coke to do a controller switching less current than many of our ebike stuff.

They do monitor battery current. In fact in two different places other than the phase sensors. The BCM (Battery control module) has a current sensor for SOC purposes and it's current information is sent to the MCM over a serial link. The MCM (Motor control module) has a seperate current sensor which also measures battery current. How exactly both are used by the MCM is not fully understood yet. There are a lot of fail safes built in, and differences in current berween the various sensors, inc the combined or computed Phase ones would be a simple safety.

 

[liveforphysics]

Here you go Harold, this is the Honda Insight BLDC controllers guts. They did it all with a single giant IGBT module. They don't even monitor battery current, but monitor all 3 legs of phase current (when you can know all 3 with simple math if you know any 2), and they use 3 caps that are each bigger than a can of coke to do a controller switching less current than many of our ebike stuff.

They do monitor battery current. In fact in two different places other than the phase sensors. The BCM (Battery control module) has a current sensor for SOC purposes and it's current information is sent to the MCM over a serial link. The MCM (Motor control module) has a seperate current sensor which also measures battery current. How exactly both are used by the MCM is not fully understood yet. There are a lot of fail safes built in, and differences in current berween the various sensors, inc the combined or computed Phase ones would be a simple safety.

Cool. I've got a battery control module as well, and a pair of the DC/DC converters. I must have missed where it measured battery current, but I will take your word for it.

 

[peterperkins]

The online Honda technical manuals and advanced diagnostic info contain an Enormous amount of info and lots of clues as to what is going on 8) But it's a lot of reading

http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/honda-insight-forum-1st-gen-discussion/16983-download-2000-2006-insight-service-manual-pdf-others.html

http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/modifications-technical-issues/15146-honda-insight-gen-i-resource-library.html#post144135

This manual especially from page 143 onwards is very revealing and discusses the Insight power electronics in some detail.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/4/22/2836744/Insight%20Resource%20Manual.pdf

Peter

 

[bart_dood]

Hi Live for physics,

Yup this is a project I started just a while back (see blog at bottom). Mike D (from 99mpg) and I have bought microchip motor control boards to try and drive the honda MDM, I already have the wiring diagram on my blog.

However at this point we probably need some input from someone that knows how to program C real well. The microchip evaluation boards come pre-programmed with the application AN1078 I believe and this is sensorless vector control of a PMSM, however as you probably know sensorless is tough from 0 rpm because there is no back emf to detect to know where the motor is, it is easier to add hall sensors and then change the code to sense position. Application AN957 does sensored BLDC motor control but is not vector control.
Therefore it should be possible to merge these two apps together to get sensored BLDC vector control...

I'm going to try and do it but my C is limited, haven't even got the capability to program my board yet, I do have it running with a small BLDC motor though.

Anyone know C????

EDIT: PMSM motors and BLDC motors might be exactly the same thing according to this:

http://www.control.com/thread/1026172925

Which means microchip app AN1078 should work with minimal mods