Cromotor + MethTek Monster 24FET + 20S lipo build

hjns

hjns

100 kW
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
1,273
Location
Basel, Switzerland
Attempt to create a structured knowledge base for noobs like me

  1. General questions: what do I need? What do I want?
    First read the different FAQs:
  2. General bike related stuff
  3. Electric conversion related (structure adapted from Kingfish 2010)
    • What kind of E-bike do I need?
    • Factory or pre-built E-bikes
    • E-bike specific components used to build an E-bike or convert a normal bike
      • Motor
        • General considerations
          • What is a hubmotor? First read the excellent explanation by Justin 2005 at ebikes.ca.
          • Comprehensive list with characteristics of brushless geared hubmotors by voicecoils 2008
          • If you have learned a bit about the different motors and controllers, compare your favourite combination at ebike.ca's simulator. I think MrVass actually made it, correct?
        • Front versus rear motor
        • Sensorless versus sensored
        • Dual Wheel Drive / 2WD
          • First read the 2WD FAQ as started by KingFish 2011
          • More 2WD experiences, thread started by brogio 2011
          • Dual Hall Throttle solution to drive 2 controllers, as provided my Methods 2009
        • Motor modifications See also this nice site for good explanations of some motor modifications
        • Other motor related stuff
        • Torque Arms. Every motor should be firmly fixated to the frame. Ebikes sold from a factory usually already have some kind of torque arm applied, to prevent the axle to spin within the dropout. However, if you add a new motor to an existing frame, it is strongly recommended to add a torque arm at each dropout.
          • from Methods (simple bolt-on, identical to ebike.ca version): http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=31145
          • from Doc (needs strong metal glue or welding): http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=29129
          • ebike.ca: http://ebike.ca/store/store_motors.php
            TorqArmRev3_TN.jpg
        • Threads describing oil cooling of motor hubs
      • Controller
      • Batteries
        • Introductions
          • Start reading the wonderful ebikes.ca explanation. Not to advertise, it is just that Justin published a great article on the ebikes.ca website.
          • Then continue with Ypedal's nice explanation on the different chemistries.
          • And then find some good reactions and info balancing the pro's and con's for the diffferent sorts of batteries from forum members here in this thread "started by Olliemontague 2011".
        • Lithium Ion Polymer - LiPo
          • Start reading on Lipos here at Ypedal's excellent explanation of Lipos and how to use them safely.
          • Whatever battery chemistry you use, you really want to be able to monitor individual cell voltage to prevent discharging below 3.2V per cell. Many people mentioned the use of Cell Logs. I went with these. Others use dedicated lipo balancers in combo with bulk chargers.
          • Vendors in alphabetical order (not exhaustive): HobbyKing
          • Building different Lipo packs
            • Pack: 48V 12S3P 15Ah; Bricks: 6S1P 5Ah Zippy 25C; by Ypedal 2011
      • Chargers and BMS
        • BMS
        • Individual cell balanced charging
        • Bulk charging
          • Some people (including some of the gurus here) recommend bulk charging using Mean Well (or cloned) chargers. 63-84V by KingFish 2010 -
          • Vendors in alphabetical order (not exhaustive): Ebay
        • Chargers
        • PSUs
      • Throttle
      • Ebrakes
      • Wires
        • Identifying wire function
        • Which wire size for which application
        • Soldering tips
      • Auxiliary systems
        • Cycle analyst - CA
          • The cycle analyst (CA) will provide you with a wealth of information about the status of your motor, lipos in time and in location if you want. Read up on it over at ebikes.ca on their Cycle Analyst Homepage. Of course ebikes.ca sells them, but if you buy a motor(-kit) from a trading ES member (like -methods) you can usually order one in the same go.
          • How to calibrate your CA, see methods' description of Justin's method here and even more detailed in this thread.
        • Lights
          • Cree powerleds: complete ebike.ca version
            lights_installed.jpg
          • ebay version
          • Review of the Luminators from ebike.ca by Ypedal 2010
          • Magicshine 900 lumen lights
          • Other LED lights
          • Stella light
          • Most lights will need something like 12V 1.5A. If you want to power your lights from the battery you may need a DC/DC converter to step down from whatever voltage you use to 12V. The complete ebike.ca version descsribed above has this built in. Lyen's DC/DC convertermay still be available, and there are numerous Ebay versions to be bought as well.
        • Alarm systems
        • Ipod/iPhone usb charging
        • Audio
        • Communication
        • Battery voltage monitors
          Whatever battery chemistry you use, you really want to be able to monitor individual cell voltage to prevent discharging below 3.2V per cell. Many people mentioned the use of Cell Logs. I went with these.
    • Bike geometry /frame adjustments / E-bike component transport solutions
    • Tools
      • Mechanical tools
      • Electrical tools
        • Soldering
          If you do not know how to solder, just google soldering or start here. Nice vid about creating your own battery pack here.
        • other
      • Other
        • Bonding epoxy
        • Cyano acrylate glue
  4. Glossary of EV technology as posted by fechter 2007






Comments, tips, suggestions, corrections are all more than welcome. Please, send me a PM, and I will try and change/implement as soon as possible

Update 2011-11-28
I have stopped logging the updates here. However, the knowledge base will continue to expand...

Update 2011-09-24
Scavenged Ypedal's Projects Page and provided links to the most important pages.

Update 2011-09-22
Added links to various CREE powerled head lamps, DC/DC converters, and CA.
Started linking TRA articles to the structure.

Update 2011-09-21
Added links to basic soldering skills
Added a section for factory built E-bikes

Update 2011-09-20
I am changing this first post to include the things that I learned while reading the many different ES threads. Info is spread over the whole place, you really have to know what you are looking for in order to find info. Now, I am of the opinion that noobs like me should spend their energy on learning about bikes, electronics, motors, lipos and all that stuff. I hate to have to browse through all threads, or using the search function and browse through half the threads, to find stuff. I will do it anyway though. However, I thought that while I am at it, I might as well put my results into a structure (scroll up). Maybe another noob can use it to his/her advantage.

Added link to glossary of EV technology, links to general faqs, link to some motor info



Introduction/Background (August 2011)
First things first - I am a Dutchman living in Switzerland with my wife and 4 kids. I recently purchased a nice e-bike for my wife to cope with the hills around Basel. After having tried out her bike, I told her I actually like it a lot for myself as well. Then she bought me this (I added the child seat, and obviously I removed the 36V 10Ah battery).
bike.jpg
I very much appreciate my wife's gesture, and I like the frame/look, so I do not want to change the looks of the bike too much. However, there are some drawbacks to this thing, which are the basis for my "wishlist". Based on that, I started doing research on the net, and of course found this excellent forum. After reading a lot, I have collected a series of questions, related to my "wishlist". First, my wish list:

  • It is slow, it goes only 25km/h. Which is too slow for my taste. With my normal Dutch citybike, I am able to get 35km/h easily, and downhill is of course much faster. However, due to the huge weight (25kg) and the support limited up to 25km/h I cannot get the thing to go faster. I would aim for 40km/h, faster if budget allows (and NO, I will not go speeding with a child in the backseat :p ). I do like the way the bike helps me to go uphill with very limited effort. I am aware that here in Switzerland I will need a MoFa Zulassung for such a mod.
  • It is pedelec, i.e., I need to firmly push the pedals in order to get an assisted response. I would rather prefer a thumb regulator with 3 speeds, or even a stepless variable regulator like on a motorbike, without me needing to pedal with force.
  • On the rear wheel, it only has a drum brake. It works, but I need to pull the handle with a lot of force. I would rather have a disc brake.
  • The freewheel is attached wrongly so that it does not rotate in one plane.
  • Modding budget is between 1k and 1.5k
So far my expectations.

Some more pictures of the hub motor and related stuff.
View attachment 2View attachment 1wiring.JPG
FYI, I am a complete noob with regards to bikes in general and E-bikes in specific. I do have some experience with electronics and moving parts, being in the RC-helicopter scene for a while. However, these E-bike electronics are a tad heavier than my 120 size helicopters. My RC electronic speed controllers usually work with 15A max, and my LiPos are usually 1 or 2 cells at 3.7 or 7.4V nominal with a capacity of 800mAh. Just to give you an idea. With my current Lipo experience, I would hate to have a Lipo fire between my legs in a sensitive place. Therefore, I very much like the safe(r) Lion batteries.

My initial questions
  • Does it make sense to exchange the current regulator/controller/hub/wheel with a combination from Crystalyte (HS rear wheel motor in rim 26'' and 6 speed shimano freewheel / 36V 20A controller / Split twist grip 36 Volt with battery indicator)?
  • Can I connect the above mentioned combi to my current 36V 10Ah Lion battery (saving money)? I do NOT know the C-rating for discharging this battery.
  • Does it make sense to spend the extra money to go for a 72V configuration, with dito controller (72V 40A) and regulator (do 72V regulators even exist?), by adding a second 36V 10Ah battery in series, ie., what would I gain in terms of speed, and what would I loose in terms of distance and/or safety? I would be willing to charge the batteries separately to avoid any balancing issues.
  • Are there acceptable variations (i.e., different parts, different brands) to the above that would help me achieving my "wishlist" with a reduced budget, taking into account that I am located in Switzerland?
  • I do not understand the difference between "sensored" and "sensorless". Why should I care?
  • I intend to remove the drum brake and convert to disc brakes using a conversion from Brake Therapy. Any suggestions/warnings?
[/list]
Thanks in advance, everybody, for any answers or links that will help me modify this beast!

Now, some of my questions were answered here in this thread by the nice ES community. Other answers I found elsewhere on ES. Below, I will try to provide a structured knowledge base for noobs. I have to find and read the info anyway, so I might as well put the links here. I will try to keep adding the correct reference to the original post/info/url in the format (authorname year - linked to original post). Give me a year or 4 to make this a bit more comprehensive... :shock:
 
Your motor looks like Qute geared one, is it geared? Way to check it is lifting rear wheel and turn it forth and back. If there is difference(like it freewheels in forward direction and backwards going with more resistance, snapping internal motor).

As to brake therapy, my qute motor is 145mm and I cant see much space in between frame and motor body.

If you have some tools to check the battery discharge rate, would be helpful. (just find the current limit where it shuts down)

Most expensive part in e biking is usually the battery. (So you probably will like to keep it and start from there, if possible)

Edit: Welcome to ES! :D
 
Welcome to the forum Henk.

I think people trying to help you will want to know the following:

1) what are your budget constraints?
2) Are you intending/hoping to keep the child seat when you revamp it? or are you happy to use the rack space for batteries?
3) Are you very fussed about legal "rules" - presumably not if you are sensibly trying to overcome the idiocy that is pedalec. I support you wholeheartedly by the way in turning a blind eye to stupid ebike laws.

The short answer to your post is there are a lot of answers, and many options. If you are happy with 40kph then you don't need 72 volts (there are controllers that will stock take up to 100V - so there is no worries if you want that), but if you are happy for 40kph, with good hill climbing ability, you can get that out of a HS35 or HT35 on 48V, and on a geared hub like a BMC V3 you can get much more.

The sensored/sensorless distinction relates to whether the hub motor has hall sensors installed on it. The hall sensors tell the controller (what you are calling a regulator - controller is the more common term) where the wheel/motor is positioned. Sensorless motors don't, so they require a sensorless controller to be able to operate. ie, a sensored motor will work on a sensorless controller, but a sensorless motor won't work on a sensored/standard controller. When you look at a controller, the three fatter wires are the phase wires (the wires that deliver power to the three phases), and the five thin wires are the hall wires (which tell the controller where the wheel/motor is).

Best of luck mate, and answer those questions above to help the wiser folk than I to help you out.

Given the kind of performance that I suspect you are looking for (I am thinking of you wanting at least 30-40amps), I think you should think beyond the lion pack you have, and either start thinking of Lifepo4/A123Cells/Lipo, but it is very hard to know without you giving a budget and your weight/build desire.

Answer the 3 questions above and I think people will be able to help you much more.
 
Hi Parabellum and Philistine,

Thanks for your welcome! Feels good to be received this way.

Parabellum:
  • I have no reference to evaluate whether the motor is “geared” or not. When I turn it back and forth, I do NOT feel any difference. Why is this important?
  • For the brake therapy solution, I feel that with a different motor/wheel combo, I can get rid of the drum brake that takes much more space than a disc brake.
  • I do not know what tools to use to measure the discharge rate. Any suggestions?
  • I indeed would like to keep the battery for budget reasons. However, I am open for suggestions (Lifepo4/A123Cells). LiPo is a No Go. I do not have any experience with Lifepo4 or A123Cells. They should fit in the frame, though.
Philistine:
  • Thanks for the sensor info. However, I still do not understand why the controller needs to know where the wheel is positioned. Why is this important? I do understand that a sensorless motor needs a sensorless controller.
  • My budget constraints are indeed between 1k and 1.5k USD. Preferably at the lower end, but if the 1.5k gives me superpower, I will just start saving now…
  • I need the child seat on the back to bring my kid to school every morning. Her school is on top of a steep hill, which is why I wanted the E-bike in the first way.
  • I am reasonably fussed about legal here. However, for argument’s sake, I guess I should go first with the legal stuff.
Therefore, I will rephrase my questions:

What would be the best solution within the following constraints:
  • Budget between 1k and 1.5k USD
  • Keep the child seat in the back.
  • Keep the frame
  • 40 km/h max
  • minimal distance 10km. 15km preferred.
  • Preferred to keep the Lion battery.
I.e., what would be your recommendations with regards to:
  • Motor + 26’’ wheel
  • Controller
  • Regulator
  • Change the battery to Lifepo4/A123Cells. However, I assume that in order to increase Amps, I can also add another 36V 10Ah Lion battery in parallel.

Thanks again!
 
It does look like a Cute gear hub.

It shold be faster than you list.

Does the controller have a couple wires coming out of the controller, hoked to each other? If so that could be your speed limit jumper.
Try disconnecting them and see if speed increases.

You should also see another loose plug with 3 o 4 wires, that could be a plug for the thumb/twist throttle if it has it.

I think pics of the controller and wiring coming out of it might also help to know what you need.

You might just get away with a bigger battery if those connectors are there.

Dan
 
Yes where the little plate with the writing on it should be the controller 4 screws. Inside could be a speed limiter jump wire to be euro. legal could be white just one wire with just a connector. They these may help.
 
Hall sensors are used to say controller which coil to fire up to attract/ push specific magnet groups on the rotor. Difference to AC motor is, BLDC are permanent magnets and magnetic fields must be created in precise position/direction/moment. Sensor less are same BLDC, but with specific magic feedback analyzing inside controller, they tend to be problematic on died starts, until enough rpm for good feedback. They tend to misfire under some conditions, which is very dangerous for powerful setups( for integrity of the rider and the controller).

Geared motors: are a poinless collection of moving parts inside, which neds maintenents and do not like overpowering. So if you buy 250W motor don’t expect upgrading in the future.

DD motors: only 2 moving (mechanically interacting) parts are 2 bearings, virtually no maintenance and to kill them, you need to melt cooper windings or demagnetize them. So buy 500-1000W motor and when time comes you can push 5+KW in it (keeping eye on temperature and using a bit of common sense)

36V 10Ah battery is about 360W stored, which will give you 15+km range.

Cheapest solution I se is following

http://emissions-free.com/catalog/i14.html

But contact Paul (Cellman), and offer to pay few bucks more for exchange to programmable 6 or 9FET Infinneon controller with IRFB4110 FETS + programming cable and you are armed for anything from 250W- 3000+W 36V-100V. You can still use your battery and if you wish buy 1 more for 72V and high speed.

If you want to go realy badass

http://ebikes.ca/store/store_motors.php
M5304RD26 (ask Justin if it is sensored before buying) or M3540R26

And Lyens 18Fet or 24Fet controller on IRFB4110 fets (programmable + cable)

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=19612&p=285708&hilit=24+mosfet#p285708

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=17694&p=257833&hilit=18+mosfet#p257833

But in this case I do not se any way around LiPo or
maybe Cellman can build you something. :D
 
You would definitely like a more powerful motor. 250 w may be great in amsterdam, but in the mountians you will like more power a lot.

Cellmans Mac motor, in the slower torqe model would be a good choice. Direct drive motor like the crystalyte would work, but again, get the slower model. They call them torque models, but really 1000w is 1000w. What you get with a slower motor is a motor that takes the slower speeds as you climb a hill better. As a motor gets too slow, it makes more of the watts into heat.

Whatever you settle on for the motor, you should consider 12s lipo since you have experience with RC. 4 -6s 5 ah bricks makes a real nice 12s 10 ah bike battery. 12s is a real nice voltage, about halfway between 36v and 48v nominal. Just about any 1000 watt ebike kit, that is one with a 20 amp controller, will do what you describe wanting real nice on 12s lipo. But if you ride the hills much, you do want the slower versions. You'll still be plenty fast with 12s lipo even with the slower motor versions.

Your existing battery is too small and weak for running a 20 amp controller, so keep that battery as a spare for the wifes bike.
 
Hi all,

Thanks enormeously for the advice. You guys are very quick to get to the point, and you have me enthused so far that I find it worth looking in a 12S Lipo config a bit more. Can any of you give a good pointer to a thread that gives some e-bike beginner's knowhow on going Lipo?
For example:
  • how do people charge multiple 12S packs at the same time?
  • would hich C-rated lipos make a difference for my purposes, and what would be the consequences for the controller?

Thanks!
 
hjns said:
Hi all,

Thanks enormeously for the advice. You guys are very quick to get to the point, and you have me enthused so far that I find it worth looking in a 12S Lipo config a bit more. Can any of you give a good pointer to a thread that gives some e-bike beginner's knowhow on going Lipo?
For example:
  • how do people charge multiple 12S packs at the same time?
  • would hich C-rated lipos make a difference for my purposes, and what would be the consequences for the controller?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Waiting for this BMS to come available it will be a game changer and all newbie’s can use the incredible LiPo power!
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=30021&hilit=bms&start=60
Batteries can be ordered here
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__86__85__LiPo_LiFe_NiMH_Battery-Li_2DPoly_28All_brands_29.html
Then it is just plug and play.
1 option for precision adjustable bulk charger read here.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30892

Have fun. :D
 
Hi all,

Thanks for the very usefull links!
I found the lipo noob thread. Got some more reading to do for ebike application.

Draft shopping list now includes:

Oh, and while learning more on BMS^s, lipos, and supercontrollers, I will start looking for the speed limiter in my current setup. Thanks again for the tips!
 
hjns said:
Hi all,

Thanks for the very usefull links!
I found the lipo noob thread. Got some more reading to do for ebike application.

Draft shopping list now includes:

Oh, and while learning more on BMS^s, lipos, and supercontrollers, I will start looking for the speed limiter in my current setup. Thanks again for the tips!
Click to expand...

1) not totally, this motor will give you ~25km/h on 48V, virtually if you want to double you speed, you need to double your voltage, you will need 24S setup for 50km/h. Motors got something named KV rate=rpm/V, but I suppose you already know it. HS will give you about 40km/h (or little less) at 12S.
2) why do you need 325A(650A if you make it 2p) discharge rate? ZIPPY Flightmax 8000mAh 6S1P 30C for $88.18 is about 5X more cost effective, W/$. Have newer received one overrated Turnygy or Zippy pack. If you want real kickass LiPo (which is wasted money for use you give it anyway). Buy Turnygy Nano Tech, they go up to 90C and still cost les then a half.
3) Controller is cool, but prepare to limit your desire at about 6KW peak before you modify your motor a little.

Look an this controller wire connection diagram, maybe its yours. http://www.elifebike.com/upfile/dtpic/2010/9W/9UJ7.992VA/1HDPG6_FVFK7.pdf
 
Having put together a 47mph ebike myself, I'm far from the guy to say go slow. But you'd be better off to tinker around in the 1000w ballpark a bit before going to the high volt high amp controllers.

You can ride around at 36-48v with a 20 amp controller that is pretty inexpensive. You'll have 800-1200 real world watts, and go fast enough. Once you get into 72v, and 50 amp lyens controllers you get real obvious to the cops. And you are not riding any kind of ebike now. You are on a homemade, unlicenced motorcycle. Stick to fairly normal speeds for a bike, and the cops will tend to ignore you if you faux pedal.

Btw, my fast bike was ridden in a race on a track. But it did get snuck out on the street a few times. 8)

One good tool for limiting speed if you want it, is a direct plug in Cycleanalyst. So make sure your controller has the fitting for it.
 
It looks like from one side angel and other devil are trying to give you advice. :twisted:

But now I will step on dogmanns side for a while, go ease (at least at the beginning), you live in civilized country (here where I live are no regulation to bicycle, but because of people like me they sure will be soon). :mrgreen:
 
parabellum said:
1) not totally, this motor will give you ~25km/h on 48V, virtually if you want to double you speed, you need to double your voltage, you will need 24S setup for 50km/h. Motors got something named KV rate=rpm/V, but I suppose you already know it. HS will give you about 40km/h (or little less) at 12S.
Click to expand...

Ah, well, "knowing" does not necessarily mean that I think straight all the time. Guess going Lipo made me go a bit nuts as well. And I indeed know about kv ratings, but by no means am an expert.

parabellum said:
2) why do you need 325A(650A if you make it 2p) discharge rate? ZIPPY Flightmax 8000mAh 6S1P 30C for $88.18 is about 5X more cost effective, W/$. Have newer received one overrated Turnygy or Zippy pack. If you want real kickass LiPo (which is wasted money for use you give it anyway). Buy Turnygy Nano Tech, they go up to 90C and still cost les then a half.
Click to expand...

See above, because I did not do the thinking, and mistakenly thought that the added amps would turn the motor faster. Of course it will only add torque, which is a good thing, but obviously overkill.

4 of those Flightmax 8Ah bricks would indeed be very nice. Although costs are not a major constraint, it does not mean I do not value good bang for bucks.

parabellum said:
3) Controller is cool, but prepare to limit your desire at about 6KW peak before you modify your motor a little.

Look an this controller wire connection diagram, maybe its yours. http://www.elifebike.com/upfile/dtpic/2010/9W/9UJ7.992VA/1HDPG6_FVFK7.pdf
Click to expand...
It looks like a stock Crystalyte controller would do it for me. Is there anything better than something like this?
CT--S-36%2048V25A-F_V2.jpg


dogman said:
Having put together a 47mph ebike myself, I'm far from the guy to say go slow. But you'd be better off to tinker around in the 1000w ballpark a bit before going to the high volt high amp controllers.
You can ride around at 36-48v with a 20 amp controller that is pretty inexpensive. You'll have 800-1200 real world watts, and go fast enough. Once you get into 72v, and 50 amp lyens controllers you get real obvious to the cops. And you are not riding any kind of ebike now. You are on a homemade, unlicenced motorcycle. Stick to fairly normal speeds for a bike, and the cops will tend to ignore you if you faux pedal.
Click to expand...
Good point. I do not want to stick out too much.

dogman said:
Btw, my fast bike was ridden in a race on a track. But it did get snuck out on the street a few times. 8)
One good tool for limiting speed if you want it, is a direct plug in Cycleanalyst. So make sure your controller has the fitting for it.
Click to expand...
Like this?
CA-LDP-klein.jpg
 
Hi all,

This morning I opened the frame where the controller is located. The controller is Chinese (I presume), see below:
View attachment 1
I cannot read or understand the language, but analogue to my RC esc's, I would say the controller is able to handle 7A continuously, and 15A peak current. Anybody able to confirm?

The wiring looks not very complicated, but I still need to do some more learning.

Compared with the EC61 6Mosfet intelligent brushless motor controller wire connection diagram posted earlier in this thread, I can recognize the following:

  • Motor wires in Yellow, Green, and Blue
  • PAS wires are the rightmost in the picture, because I saw the wires go to the pedals. Can I connect a half turn throttle to this one so that I do not have to pedal anymore, and are these standardized to 5V?
  • I assume the big Red and Black wires are going directly to the battery
  • The huge white plug with Red,Black, Green, Yellow, and Blue I do not understand.
  • The Green, Black wires connect to 2 Red,Blue combinations, probably going to the brakes (Voltage brake)?
  • And then there are 3 unidentified wire combos coming from the controller: (1) Black/Red right next to the controller, (2) a Single Red, and (3), Red,Black,Yellow. Numbers (2) and (3) have compatible plugs, but I did not try it out for lack of knowledge. Would connecting them bypass the speed limit?

Now, I looked at the website that is written on the controller, and I found this, which is very much looking like my controller. However, I could not find any wiring diagram. There is reference to the speed limit, but I am unaware as how to remove it.

If the specs are correct (accepting 48V 16A), I would be able to create a 12S 44.4V Lipo pack and just try it with the current config, right?

However, if W=V*A, I would blow the controller when applying 44.4V at 16A (720W), as it is rated for 350W maximum (I assume the Mosfets are the problem). And that is only the controller. I also do not know what would happen with the actual motor (and motor wires). Any ideas?

Which makes me think. Are these Crystalyte 48V 40A controllers really able to handle 1920W? However, it IS consistent with what Crystalyte states with their motors, that they will work for 2000W output.

Functions and specifications
* Rated voltage: DC 24V/36V/48V
* Rated Power: 150~350W
* Low Voltage Protection: DC 21V±0.5V / DC31.5V±0.5V / DC42V±0.5V
* Current Limit: 8~16A(±0.5A)
* Standby Power Consumption: < 3W
* Speed Limit: Highest Speed range 35km/h ～ 45km/h (specified by motor). Speed limit under 20km/h
* Cruise Mode: Automatic Cruise or Manual Cruise. Stabilizing throttle for consecutive 8 seconds enters automatic cruise mode which makes e-bikes run at a const speed once releasing control from throttle
* Indicators: Work with multiple serial or parallel indicators, positive or negative shared indication LEDs( low voltage, current limit or cruise )
* Speed Indicators: Hall sensor speed indicators, positive or negative phase line speed indicators
* 1:1 pedal assistance: controller provides power assistance based on pedal feedback(speed) during pedaling. Various central hall sensors are provided like central shaft speed sensors or Torque sensors.
* Braking: work with open circuits low voltage brake, high voltage brake( +5V, +12V…)
* EABS braking: soft EABS braking system without braking noise and damage on motor. It makes motor sharply stop with a soft effect similar to that of EABS on vehicles. This regenerative braking brings energy back to battery from motor motion.
* Running regeneration: after throttle being released, the running motor transfer energy from motion into electrical power being stored into battery. This is power saving but will shorten distance of running. This function is selectable.
* Super low noise: super low noise at motor start and run beyond the performance of traditional brushless controller, making a low vibration and enlarge length of use
* Low heat generation: use the most advanced complementary PWM technique to lower the system heat generation. It optimizes power usage and extend length of use
* Multiple current limits: Use average current limit and peak current limit. Peak current limit checks current peak at every PWM cycle and protect MOSFET from resistless peak current and avoid damage. Average current limit makes controller a const current limit performance on all motors at low load, medium load, high load or stall. This simplifies testing process and checking process for e-bike manufacturers.
* Runaway protection: solve the problem of motor runaway from the problem of throttle or circuits and improves reliability.
* Stall protection: controller protects motor stall from stopping motor at 3 seconds in stall
* Short Circuits protection: controller protected once two or all of three phase lines are connected.

All of above functionalities are software based and will not increase the cost. PSoc system makes parts number as low as possible with its in-chip function blocks. This lowers the cost of hardware and improves reliability.

The newest product functionalities includes: 8 second cruise, running regeneration, alarm lock motor, 3-speed mode, 74hc164 serial indicators, three-wheeler reverse run button, sensorless brushless, non-standstill start and ratio pedal assistance for exportation.
Click to expand...
 
The crystalyte 48v 25 amp controller you linked to above is what I'd suggest you start with. While it may be illegal on the street in Swiss, you will ride at speeds that allow you to appear to just be pedaling hard when you spot a cop.

It doesn't appear to have a plug for the CA, but you won't need limiting with that controller. If you do go to 40 amps, then make sure the controller you choose has the CA input plug. One thing to be aware of, the new crystalyte H series motors seem to have some issues with running very powerful and high voltage controllers unless hall sensors are installed. The sensorless controllers work fine at 48v 25 amps, but others have reported problems with sensorless when the motor reaches really high speeds.

Those 5 wires you don't recognise on your existing controller are the three wires to the hall sensors, plus the red and black wires that power the halls.

If you just want a moderate increase in power on your existing bike and motor, you may be able to undo a limiter jumper. Your controller lists two amperages. 7 amps would be with the limiter in place. 15 would be without. Look for a single wire that comes out of the controller, connects, then goes back in. Disconnect it, and you should have 15 amps. Possibly the bike is already running 15 amps though.

Edit, looking at a large display of your controller pic, I don't see any watt limit jumper. Sometimes they are located inside the box. You might look for a jumper wire inside the controller.

Re the 40 amp clyte controller. Yeah, 48v which is actually about 58v fresh charged x 40 amps gets you 2320 watts theoretically.
So with this controller you'd get slightly better top speed even though speed is mostly set by voltage. You'd climb a hill faster, and take off faster. Top speed at 12s would still be fairly moderate, and not likely to be above the speeds your gearing allows pedaling.

The catch 22 is that once you are using a 40 amp controller you need batteries that are comfortable with putting out that kind of voltage. So you'd want to go lipo, or A123, something with a decent C rate. A less expensive lifepo4 like pingbattery for example would not be a good choice with such a high amp controller.

Read some more, for many of us on the sphere, 2000 w is baby bike wattage. I'm a bit different, having tried 4000 watts, I found motor reliability much better using no more than 1500 watts. So 72v 20 amps, 48v 30 amps, is my prefered operating zone.
 
dogman said:
Read some more, for many of us on the sphere, 2000 w is baby bike wattage. I'm a bit different, having tried 4000 watts, I found motor reliability much better using no more than 1500 watts. So 72v 20 amps, 48v 30 amps, is my prefered operating zone.
Click to expand...

I agree, this is a mostly American forum. Cheap chinese stuff, lots of horsepower, pretty crude engineering, not very sophisticated. :shock: :D

P.S. Ik ben ook een in Zwitserland wonende Nederlander :D . Ben je toevallig met een Peruaanse getrouwd ?
 
dogman said:
The crystalyte 48v 25 amp controller you linked to above is what I'd suggest you start with. While it may be illegal on the street in Swiss, you will ride at speeds that allow you to appear to just be pedaling hard when you spot a cop.
Click to expand...
Well, as Switzerland is sooo safe, there are hardly any cops where-ever I go. It is really to deal with some steep climbs 10-15% with reasonable speed (>10 km/h) and a max speed around 40 km/h.

dogman said:
It doesn't appear to have a plug for the CA, but you won't need limiting with that controller. If you do go to 40 amps, then make sure the controller you choose has the CA input plug. One thing to be aware of, the new crystalyte H series motors seem to have some issues with running very powerful and high voltage controllers unless hall sensors are installed. The sensorless controllers work fine at 48v 25 amps, but others have reported problems with sensorless when the motor reaches really high speeds.
Click to expand...
I see, I read something about burnt Crystalyte motors. Do I understand correctly that the sensors actually help in telling the controller what frequency to fire the pulses?

dogman said:
Those 5 wires you don't recognise on your existing controller are the three wires to the hall sensors, plus the red and black wires that power the halls.
Click to expand...
Ah, thanks for pointing that out.

dogman said:
If you just want a moderate increase in power on your existing bike and motor, you may be able to undo a limiter jumper. Your controller lists two amperages. 7 amps would be with the limiter in place. 15 would be without. Look for a single wire that comes out of the controller, connects, then goes back in. Disconnect it, and you should have 15 amps. Possibly the bike is already running 15 amps though.
Edit, looking at a large display of your controller pic, I don't see any watt limit jumper. Sometimes they are located inside the box. You might look for a jumper wire inside the controller.
Click to expand...
Hmm. Thanks, but I will get the 40 amp controller anyway, I think.

dogman said:
Re the 40 amp clyte controller. Yeah, 48v which is actually about 58v fresh charged x 40 amps gets you 2320 watts theoretically.
So with this controller you'd get slightly better top speed even though speed is mostly set by voltage. You'd climb a hill faster, and take off faster. Top speed at 12s would still be fairly moderate, and not likely to be above the speeds your gearing allows pedaling.
The catch 22 is that once you are using a 40 amp controller you need batteries that are comfortable with putting out that kind of voltage. So you'd want to go lipo, or A123, something with a decent C rate. A less expensive lifepo4 like pingbattery for example would not be a good choice with such a high amp controller.
Read some more, for many of us on the sphere, 2000 w is baby bike wattage. I'm a bit different, having tried 4000 watts, I found motor reliability much better using no more than 1500 watts. So 72v 20 amps, 48v 30 amps, is my prefered operating zone.
Click to expand...

What Lipo pack would you recommend with the 40Amp Clyte controller? 16S would give me 67.2V max and 59.2V nominal with a 4x 8S 8Ah bricks in 16S2P config. That would be 2688W. I guess that is still a child's bike to American standards....and still be almost within range of the Clyte HS. What do you think?

In other words, given the Clyte HS rear motor hub on a 26" wheel with the Clyte 40Amp controller, I understand that the choice for Lipo pack will make a fine balance. On the one hand I can be very conservative ("baby wattage") and go for 12S 50.4V max (maximum 2016W). Having two of those packs in series would of course double Voltage and Wattage, but with the risk of burning my motor. Somewhere in the middle is probably best. Anybody?

Lebowski said:
Ik ben ook een in Zwitserland wonende Nederlander :D . Ben je toevallig met een Peruaanse getrouwd ?
Click to expand...
Hihi, nee hoor, mijn vrouw is gewoon Nederlands, blonde haren, blauwe ogen. :p
 
Well, the short answer is to limit your watts to about 1500 if you plan on lots of hills that are 15%. I've smoked two or three motors on that kind of hill. Bottom line is you smoke em a lot faster at 2500 watts than you do at 1500. I have long lasting fun riding at 1500 watts. Smoking motors is (expensive and quick) fun too, but I try to keep that down to once a year or so. The line may be different for the Ht motors, but I can't say were it is. For me to go and find out, somebody has to send me free motors. I hate smoking motors I paid for. I think I can safely guess that somewhere less than 2000 watts is the safe-er zone to run the HT.

Lots of people talk running big watts. But how it's ridden makes a huge difference. Continuous running on the flat will have the controller back off dramatically on the watts as the motor reaches cruise speed. Up 15%, there's no cruising, the controller will feed huge watts till the smoke comes out of the motor. You talk climbing the Alps, so I talk back off the watts. I know this stuff from experience, my favorite local climb is just about equal to Alp d Huez in grade and length. Add to that, my climate is lots hotter.

Currently my hill bike has a super slow winding motor, and runs 72v 20 amps. (20s) The high voltage gets the super slow motor up to speed, maxing out at 25 mph. The low amps keeps it from turning as much amps into heat. As you climb steep enough, the motor starts stalling. At that point, the motor may be turning 500w into motion and the rest into heat. See what happens if you go from 1500 w to 2500 w. Bad enough to be turning 1000w into heat for a moment. With more watts, you may start turning 1000 w into motion instead of 500. But nevertheless, the watts going straight into heat increases. So the ride duration before you smoke motors decreases.

You are on the right track with the slower winding motor, which tolerates the hills better. But I recomend less watts unless you are planning on very short rides. If you get some 5s packs, you could configure them at 15s 10 ah for longer rides, and 20s 5 ah for short but fun blasts. Toning down a shade, you could do similar with 6s lipos. 12s for a long ride, 18s 5 ah for short ones.

I can't say with enough emphasis, you should start out with the 25 amp controller. You may find that when run at 12s, The 1200 w it gives you is perfect.

Lastly, if you are going to climb 15% grades a thermometer placed inside the hub is mandatory. Only by watching the temp inside can you have a clue when you MUST stop. Every motor I have smoked was either unmonitored, or I was racing and didn't care what the reading was.
 
Oh, and one more little item. That bike frame is not really suitable for a 2000+ watt ebike. Look at what we use in the pics section on our high speed builds. Lots of really stout frames in use, while yours was built for exactly 250w. But it will tolerate 1500w.
 
dogman said:
Oh, and one more little item. That bike frame is not really suitable for a 2000+ watt ebike. Look at what we use in the pics section on our high speed builds. Lots of really stout frames in use, while yours was built for exactly 250w. But it will tolerate 1500w.
Click to expand...

Wow, Dogman, I have to say you sound pretty convincing to me, and it is exactly this kind of experience/advice that I needed. So kudos!

To me it makes sense to stay at the lower Watt ends, and the comment on the frame just did it. I guess I will need a second bike..... :D Ouch, this sounds exactly like my other addiction: RC helis. You start with one, then need to acknowledge the constraints imposed on you by reality, and woops, there is another model that fits your needs exactly.

OK, I will start with a 1500W conversion for my Chinaman.

The new Crystalyte HT wheels seem sensorless and a bit expensive. Does it make sense to go with this MAC speed kit from cell-man, or should I go with the High Power Kit, requesting the 12T version (low rpm, high torque) and then limit the amps using the CA as well ? Also, because I cannot find a Crystalyte 25A controller. Only 20 or 40A, and I just decided not to go for the 40A, and 20A just does not sound enough for me. 8)

With 30A and 1500 climbing Watts I need a pack of 50V nominal. I will take the advice to go with 6S LiPos. Did anybody try using 12S 44V for climbing and create a life switch to add an addional 6S in series for speeding at 18S 66V on a flat area? Can the controller take such a sudden increase in Voltage? The Zippy 6S1P 8Ah bricks look especially attractive, and for a 12S 16Ah configuration I would only need 4 bricks! Add to that the two bricks for speeding at 66V, and it totals only 6 of these.

edit: these bricks are extremely heavy. I guess I should be happy to carry around the 8Ah version.

I read somewhere in another thread that you recommended to put the sensor of an indoor/outdoor thermometer under the nut, inside the dropout notch. Did you post any pics in a thread?
 
It's easy to get carried away, till you see how many of us have about $2000 or more in a really hot bike.

But I don't have big bucks, so mostly I've learned to maximize the fun for the minimum bucks. Around 1500-2000 watts takes a lot less expensive bike. Even the cheapest bikes handle 700 watts fine. But you start going faster than 30 mph on the average bike, and the brakes aren't good enough, and even worse, you get the high speed wobbles where the frame looks like a rubber band flexing around. Better be a superb motorcycle rider when that happens to you.

The cellman Mac motors are getting very popular. I may get to review one next year. I have ridden the speed model, and think you'd be happier with the torque model in the mountains. Besides, that frame looks about right for 25 mph. So the slower torque model with 30 amp controller is right in the sweet spot for mountain riding. 25 mph is still pretty fast, when you can maintain it for a long time with a motor. But even the cheapest bikes have good enough brakes for 20-25 mph.
 
I can't find a good pic of the temp sensor. My computer died, so I lost em. Then ES lost thier copy in a data transfer.

I take cheap indoor outdoor thermometers for a car, and tuck the sensor for it under the nut. Right into the dropout notch if the motor wires aren't there already. Or tape it to the axle just outside the nut if you can't tuck it into the dropout. This method is only an approximation, so you add 40F to the reading. Bear in mind, you are also not reading the temp now, but the temp a few minuites ago. Better than guessing.
 
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