Welding, powered by a generator.. good ? bad ?

Here in the USA, the disconnect is supposed to be automatic. But doing it manual would be safe, even if illegal. I agree, a lineman that stupid deserves to toast his hands off. I think the issue may be that your power could also be entering the neighbors house, who may be touching stuff like an idiot while the power is off. If your drop is connected in the same place as your neighbors, that is. I have three neighbors that way.

At my house, my main disconnect is not built to conveniently do it. Basicly, the panel is not built for it to connect power in a different way. But something could be added. Since my generator is too small to power the entire house, I'm using extension cords run through the dog door for now. I've been thinking of running a second set of wiriing in the house. One plug in each room, that would be energized by plugging the generator to a male RV plug on the back wall of the house. So on the back wall, I'd have the same plug you see on an RV, leading to a box, with three 15 amp breakers. Run about three plugs per breaker. I'd be able to have a fridge plug, and a couple plugs by window AC's, and plugs near the tv's and computer.

I fail to understand how sufficient power would be different, whether from a generator or a house plug. You either have the amps, or you don't. 30 amps on a short fat cord from the generator should do it. I think the size he bought will be big enough, once he plugs into the 30 amp socket. For sure, if the garage plug is a 14 guage run of 40' of wire, to a 15 amp breaker, then you have problems.
 
dogman said:
I fail to understand how sufficient power would be different, whether from a generator or a house plug. You either have the amps, or you don't. 30 amps on a short fat cord from the generator should do it. I think the size he bought will be big enough, once he plugs into the 30 amp socket. For sure, if the garage plug is a 14 guage run of 40' of wire, to a 15 amp breaker, then you have problems.
Click to expand...

It is not a question of the number of amps the gennie can produce, even using a short #6 cord. It is a FACT that the generator will not give 30amps instantly and a steady arc will not develop quickly. That is why you have "arc stabilization" circuitry in a portable gas driven welder. This is not some armchair theory. A gennie and a portable welder will not weld like a gas driven welder or a portable plugged into a 30 amp house service. I don't know what more to say other than I have proven this to skeptical friends over and over. As far as the gennie goes, I guess you personally need to put an amp probe and a volt meter across the output, strike the arc and see the numbers bounce all over hell before you will understand.

It is great to discuss things between us, so that we may all benefit from the experience of others. John and others have taken my advice, he now knows the difference and has taken the time to post the results. Others have PM'd me with their positive results. Perhaps Ypedal will do some tests, welding THICK MATERIAL with a fat cable connected to his house and connected to his gennie?

Fat RV plugs were $20 each last time I checked. Clothes dryer or Stove cables cost me 2 for $1.00 at the recycle place. The socket in a metal box was $2. I guess I'm just cheap? :roll:
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
 
Sugestion from experience. Whatever its use, genny needs to start at short notice / asap, maybe after 12 months idle or more. When shutting off after use, get in the habit of tuning off fuel and running dry, then pulling over till on compression stroke and store that way. no fuel in carb so no varnish to remove in a hurry ,also left on compression stroke so plug will be ready to go next time. this WILL save hours of frustration.
 
So YPedaLMaN :-| werez all the pro looking welds buddy? been a few weeks since yo got the gennie i'm guessing your about finished a custom frame by now? :mrgreen:

I got the electrician here last week fiiiinally to put in a dedicated 15amp power point in my
workshop, he ran this hell thick beefier cable from the meter box through the roof of the house
to my workshop, i think he said it is 2.5mmcable? not sure exactly what this means but is alot
thicker than the other wiring i have here, welder is the same, was nothing wrong with its performance
before smooth as silk but the standard 10amp power points we have in OZ didn't like it much haha

Best of luck buddy ;)

KiM
 
Well.... i got my twist lock connector from ebay, turned the house and garage upside down looking for the standard plug, and in a " I gotta try this now " bit i cut an extension cable and soldered it on for a quick and dirty test. ( 12 gauge cable )

And.... = Fail..

I hit the arc, and the motor rpm drops like a rock, about 3 seconds into a bead, pop the breaker on the generator goes ( the 30 amp breaker that is !! )

I suspect something may be wrong with the Lincoln, this can't be right, something is causing this thing to draw way too much power....

I used the generator yesterday to run a shop-vac ( cleaning neighbor's car ) and it ran fine at the 7 or so amps it draws, i've used a 1500w heat gun with no problem at all...

Have checked the ground clamp, i have a solid connection at the clamp end, but on the welder side the brass nut is solidly screwed in but the terminal seems loose, i have to open it up to see the back side, i hope i find a loose ground connection back in there and things run proper with a simple tightening.. otherwise i'm stumped.. makes no frickin sense..
 
It might also be the generators fault. Have you tried the welder on the house current yet?

Here in the US all our outlets should be 12g wire with 20a breakers in the box (lighting circuits 14g/15a breaker). Your welder should run fine on that. Have you been trying to weld on the highest settings? Maybe try dialing it down a bit.
 
Hey ypedal,

The breaker is only there to protect the wires. It could give a shit about the welder. Put a 20a slow blow breaker in your box and be sure the 12g extension cord is less than 50', set the welder to weld 1/8" stock and then let us know what happens. If it can't do that, your new welder (or new house wiring) is shit.
 
REdiculous said:
It's illegal because you can potentially kill someone doing that.
Click to expand...
+1 :shock:
 
Y I am going to opine it is a thing called power factor. Deals with real and imaginary power. Resistive loads have PF = 1. Inductive loads will degrade the power factor and have significant non real currents flowing on the line. You will get it if you google it, and I am sure Gordo can fill in from the utility perspective. Inductive loads lag phase, and capacitive loads lead with respect to phase current.

Also those lagging currents may be significantly degrading the generator's voltage control loop. My generator get's all screwed up with the 1 hp shaded pole motor in my furnace, so I run the 3 hp cap start/cap run motor in the table saw and it stabilizes the line for the furnace when I loose power in the wintertime and have to go to the generator.

I have a 300 amp TIG in the garage and had to add 3 or 4 oil filled caps to correct my power factor. It allowed me to go down one breaker and wire gauge from the panel to the TIG machine.

Hope this helps a bit. Small gens do not like inductive loads... now a 25 Kw diesel genset has a much different character, it is "stiffer."

This will get you started: http://www.powerstudies.com/articles/PowerFactorBasics.pdf

BTW, I am so glad I live in the middle of nowhere. I can have a bonfire, discharge firearms, and disconnect the 200 amp service breaker and backfeed my house from the welder outlet in the garage, just like all my neighbors do! Long live freedom in rural America!
 
Ypedal said:
marty said:
Try it without the extension cord.
Click to expand...

Not willing to weld inside the house !! lol... ( Yes, i'm single, and yes my house is literally a garage, but even i have limits !! ) :lol:
Click to expand...

pft pussy :p :lol: Methy is married and he welds in his kitchen (would post the pic but its been 'lost' in the server upgrade it seems :-( ) LoL

KiM
 
I'll pull the schematics, or the cover off my welder to read the caps if you need it. They are not that big in uF; but are 600 Volt oil filled caps meant for AC service. I tuned them for TIG'ing about 150 amps or so, would be like 40 amps on the 220 V primary.
 
I believe there is even more reason to use caps to balance the inductive load as I think the power meter will receive a big kick and spin up the bill without it. I do not know this is a fact, but I do know how to slow the meter down with an oscillator, so the opposite may be true? I have large caps on my motors, but not on my welder. If I welded a lot, I would. From may years of working in care facilities, I learned that EVERY time you met a resident under 60 years of age, he was a welder. Everyone working in these facilities has known this fact for 50 years. The health & safety authorities just woke up a few years ago and began protecting workers with fresh air. Please, guys, do not breath air from your welds. You can make a good, cheap air supply from an old vacuum cleaner on blow, with the suck outside. OFF TOPIC AGAIN, TOO MUCH WELDING! :mrgreen:
 
Ok, so power factor is , in a way, directly related to the efficiency of the unit, a PF of 1.0 would mean that i'm making use of all the energy i'm consuming, but how do i measure my PF ?

2nd question, is there such as thing as too much cpacitance ? ( I think that's how you say it ) .. i understand that not enough will not correct the inductance problem, but can too much have an negative effect ?

3rd question, how does one add capacitors to a Mig welder ( I am googling for that now.. ) on the trigger side of the transformer, it would only charge when you pull the trigger so you need a way to charge up the bank before the trigger is pulled.. ?.. and i imagine a resistor must be needed to drain the cap bank once the power is turned off on the mig, or do caps just self-discharge quickly enough ?

a mig welder is AC in and DC on the arc side, caps would smoothen the voltage and prevent the sag, i get that part, this will increase PF as you are using energy more efficiently while welding.

( Yeah, this next weekend i'm going to the hardware store for a 50 amp breaker and some heavy wire... but i'd still like to make this generator solution work as it would come in handy !! )
 
Yes. With the inductive load you have a lagging power factor; with the right amount of capacitance at the right current it will be "near" 1.0; add too much capacitance and it will have the same problem with a leading power factor.

My residential meter only "reads" real power. Industrial meters penalize you for the unused current you are slinging back and forth but not "using."

The caps were 30 uF each and I used 2 at 40 amps main draw from 220 single phase, and 3 when I upped it and welded 1/4 inch aluminum drawing about 80 amps from the mains. So for me about 60uF worked best when drawing about 40 amps from the mains.
 
Isn't he talking about a 220v stick welder?

When they redid your house wiring didn't they leave extra slots for more breakers? With your skills it should be easy to add a 25 or 30 a breaker then wire up a appropriate extension cord. It needn't be very long if you just want to test the welder.

About using the generator, Big Moose had a good idea about plugging something into it before trying to weld.
 
I'm comfortable with batteries but i've made it a point not to touch AC stuff as a rule lol... but yeah i understand how and i'm positive i can do it, i watched the guy rewire my house into the new panel, snap in the breakers etc, it's pretty basic stuff .. certainly no worse than wiring up a BMS ! lol.. .. the new panel has plenty of spare slots...
 
AC is fun. Wear shoes with rubber soles. Work with one hand when possible. Best to turn the power off. Can you pull the meter off? Bad things happen when electricity goes in one hand and out the other one. You don't want electricity to travel through your heart.
 
Y, AC tingles, DC kills! I changed my Mom's panel and just pulled the meter. Cut the safety wire on it, and called the power company after I did it to tell them. Never a problem. The next meter reading cycle they placed a new lead seal on it.

But you should follow your intuition, if you do not feel comfortable; don't do it. I have bent the "code" a lot of times "to get the job done" at my previous homes and at friends houses/farms. Not things I want to describe, and not things that stayed in for longer than the job took to finish.

Like said above, running the 3 HP motor on my table saw off the generator with no load, sure stabilized it for the wacky power factor loads, my 1HP shaded pole furnace motor! ... no one makes a 1 HP shaded pole motor if they are sane. It's about as efficient as me on a treadmill and has a power factor of about 0.55
 
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