What are your desires for a sub $1k production E-bike?

[spinningmagnets]

Must have the disc-brake caliper mounts front and rear, so an upgrade doesn't require a welder or a new fork. V-brakes are adequate for the 20-MPH federal-legal base-model.

Chain stays and seat-stays are parallel (instead of flared) to allow extra-fat tires, plus the front of the chain-stay is far enough away from the BB that a 52T chainring fits easily.

For a commuter, I prefer a posture that is slightly lower and slightly more laid-back than the standard MTB, similar to the Townie.

Of course hubs can be fitted to any frame that will take a wheel, but for a non-hub option, it would be great if the frame was stretched just a hair, and the extra frame space was in-between the front of the rear tire and the seat-tube. A motor in that spot could drive either the rear wheel or the BB.

Nice frame triangle for the optimum placement of a battery pack, with threaded bosses on the insides of all three frame tubes, to make battery enclosures easier to attach. The threaded bosses could be in the standard bottle-holder pattern,...it couldn't hurt.

I agree on the 1-1/8" head-tube, creates lots of options for not only the manufacturer, but also the customer.

Lots of accessory eyelets on the back half of the frame to allow fenders and a variety of cargo-box options.

 

[bobc]

Interesting concept,
Couple of points:
I've ridden a cheap full sus mountain bike(an apollo "rampage" no less) - it weighed a TON and used to bounce a lot when you got up to a decent cadence. Both these problems go away when it's electrified - that's a sub $300 retail bike without discount.
You could lose the front deraillieur and half the cassette on an ebike.
Everyone talks about double disc brakes - why does anyone need high spec rear brakes? When you're in an emergency stop situation the rear brake is doing nothing (you'd be on the verge of doing a stoppie). IMO it is only there to provide redundancy in the case of a front brake failure.
Other problems with it were basically - cheap indexed derailliuer degraded due to corrosion over 2 or 3 years - didn't stop working just became less crisp - a few dollars on slightly better spec parts would sort that.
I think your main problem will be the cheap, idiot-proof lipo charger - its connectorisation

 

[Andje]

i dont think that the public market actually has a concept of what they would want in an ebike for a grand.
A lot of people want 50 km/h, un-allowable under our current laws but almost certainly safer.
Others want 100km range, again very difficult with current batteries for only 1000$
The fact that many noobs come on here, do some research and then post unrealistic goals and get brought back down to earth to me indicates how most people who know nothing about ebikes either have trouble imagining themselves using one or have totally unrealistic expectations.If you could offer a bike that
a) did 50 km/h (lets imagine you get the laws changed too maybe you have a congressional lover)
b) was one plug to charge from any wall socket
c) was totally fendered and waterproof
d) was light enough to not get pinch flats with heavy customers on cheap tires (you know they will replace them eventually)
e) had batteries enclosed in the frame
f) some sort of rear suspension
g) only cost 1000$

i think you'd have a public winner. But idiots still buy the Canadian Tire bikes with 24v lead acid on a rack behind them on a bike worth 20 dollars, and they pay 500+ so there is definetly a market of rubes. But is there a market of savvy customers who would investigate and then salivate over your project? I don't know; i think personally that the thing REALLY standing in the way is not the engineering but the public desire and awareness; if it was me, the first thing i'd do after designing the thing would be to put out a really serious public information campaign, get them thinking in realistic ebike terms so that they just fall into wanting your product. Hit schools and colleges and universities to get youth talking about them and using them; students will flock to no insurance vehicles. Offer comprehensive packages including training and maintenance to businesses who have many employees doing downtown commutes from suburbia.
O and have a website with a "buy now" button. Impulse buys make you cash

 

[spinningmagnets]

Everyone talks about double disc brakes - why does anyone need high spec rear brakes?

I agree that rear disc is not needed on 90% of commuter builds, but the mounting flange would only cost about $20 to weld one on at the assembly line. It provides the feeling that the frame is easily and cheaply upgradable (whether they ever add rear disc in the future or not).

edit: I would also include a rear wheel with the disc flange. It doesn't have to sell with the disc and the frame doesn't have to include the caliper, its just that for a rear disc upgrade, the customer only needs to buy the disc and caliper to get that feature, rather than have the mount welded onto the frame, and buying an entirely new wheel (along with the disc + caliper). Customer could select a cheap cable-disc, or a hydraulic if desired, according to their budget.

I believe front disc is vital in order to have any credibility, although I would spec V-brake bosses on the front fork also. I think "Salmon" rim brake-pads are well-regarded, and are more than good enough for significant braking on the rear wheel.

One of the main differences in the Lamborghini Diablo, compared to the Countach it replaced was that...the Diablo was designed from the ground up to have AWD, even though it was introduced with only RWD. If there was no customer demand for the upscale AWD, they did not have to produce it, but...if there was a demand, they didn't need a frame and body change to add that feature. What I am suggesting is that you can't please everyone, but once you finalize a rider posture (with the normal range of adjustability, of course), design a full-suspension commuter frame around that geometry, but the first bike you produce should be a hard-tail with that same geometry.

A hardtail is less expensive to produce, and it can "test the waters". I have a Thudbuster seat, and customers have the option of adding a seat like that if they want, in order to keep the initial base-model price reasonable.

 

[dogman dan]

Given that a decent 10 ah battery sold with returnability if defective retails at $600-$700, you won't get much for $800-1000.

Best bet might be a bike similar to my beach cruiser. Cheap heavy steel bike, with a 5 speed derailur. Then put a 350 watt gearmotor on it with a 10 ah lifepo4 battery. Mount the battery gas tank style. It would take production runs in the millions to make it sell for less than $1200.

If the lifepo4 cell price was to be halved, then it could make a huge difference. I don't think battery prices are going down much more though. Not any more than oil prices do, unless there is an extreme oversupply.

 

[recumpence]

More good suggestions.

As I said earlier, this thread is to test the waters to see what the public may want. The problem with me is, I am at the extreme high-end on my own builds and I have never been a cheap bike person. I have always spent hundreds on brakes, etc. There are inexpensive disc brakes (tektro is one that comes to mind) that work quite well and are easy to maintain. I am not married to a rear disc. But, I think a front disc would be a good idea, especially if the bike can be overvolted to do 30mph. :wink:

I have emails into various OEMs. It is shocking how cheap you can purchase motors and controllers. Batteries, as well all know on this forum, is the catch. For a $1k bike, the range will not be great. But, hey, how many miles would most people be satisfied with? 10 miles per charge? 15? That is a big question. I think much of this is salesmanship. A customer walks in and asks about the "New fangled electric bike thingy in the window." The salesman would be wise to, first, give them a test ride, then talk price. After all that, he can answer the range question. People who do not understand EVs may have a hard time understanding that 20 miles on a charge is quite good for an E-bike. By that time, they are already sold on it.

Anyway, I love the suggestions! A couple seem to be common (and I knew they would be). For one thing, it seems as though a steel mountainbike frame would be best with a minimum of a front suspension fork. A disc brake on the front is good and I think, personally, that a rear disc tab would be wise. Oh, also, no batteries on a rear rack. Yuck! That sucks for handling. It is a no-brainer to mount them in the frame triangle.

Matt

 

[Icewrench]

Thumb Throttle
2 legged kick stand
@ 36 volt
Battery gauge
Spark free plug and play on board charger.

Iacocca set a good example with the EVG bikes.

 

[bobc]

Just expanding on a couple of points I made:-
1) rear brakes are also used for controlling wheelies ;^)
2) The suspension thing:- the hard (i.e. expensive) thing about pushbike suspension is preventing the whole bike boinging up and down when you're pedalling hard - I really think that this is the factor that makes it worth paying a high price for sophistication and adjustability. When you have what is effectively a low performance electric motorbike - perhaps the "pedalling hard" factor disappears, leaving the way open for el cheapo spring dampers as used on that old apollo.
There are also plenty of "hardtail" motorbikes too - but I guess they usually have a "squashy" back tyre to do the job ;^)

 

[Andje]

i have personally polled about 300 people over the last two years, just everyone i talk too i ask: how much, how fast, how far. Most don't give a distance range, they give a top speed and a time, assuming they can run at that top speed the whole time. Most say one hour. And they expect between 30-50 kmph so most say 50 km range.
That is a great point about how you would sell them, test ride first price later, because i think the number one thing people don't understand is how much fun these things are.

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah, no rear rack batteries. Part of why I suggested a beach cruiser frame. The other reason to go cruiser is comfort and handling. Both may be not so hot on a MTB. Personally, I have a tendency to have too much weight on my hands on Mtb's, while cruisers live up to thier name. Comfort bikes can be suprisingly uncomfortable too, with a skinny tire. But balloon tires can nearly be as good as cheap suspension.

 

[mat h physics]

Cost of production is determined by the number made. - Manf eng proverb
There is always a better way. - Ind eng proverb

Here is the way I view it: Hillhater has the best post in addressing tires on the road, self install MTB kits. There are just so many too get started.

Electric system: CONTROLLER(IC, CPU, charging sys?), BIO feedback (handlebar, thr, brk,), Motor RDD

Mech system: Frame, Wheels, Brakes, Tires, Bearings

Customer supplies Mech sys, U ship them the EBK(electric bike kit). Promote Batteries suppliers.

Make a professional looking battery box that fits around the frame triangle. The main investment would be fiberglass molds, Im sure u could lay carbon fiber in it as well (super fancy). It could contain the controller as well.

Make a "Universal" Kit that integrates cycleanalist and a secure "control" sys (i.e. sel, low sp, cont torque, spl seq 4 high sp)
Can u not make it "hard to push" by opposing mag force, security purpose?

 

[veloman]

I don't think a that trying to market something with wheels and a motor at that low of a price is wise for the industry at all. The only way to have any kind of product at that price would be to source absolutely everything out to the nastiest factory in China. A thousand dollars isn't much anymore. Sorry. If people want something reliable and fun with wheels in the future, they're going to have to save up. That's all there is to it. Putting a $1000 bike out there will just make electrics continue to look bad. Try to go get a decent pedal bike for $1,000. You'll have maybe one or two choices in the bike stores and they'll look just like walmart bikes....because they're made by the same folks in the same factories.

Lets face it, industrial manufacturing needs to be cleaned up drastically. Not only the environmental side of things, but the trade balance side of things as well. This isn't going to happen by continuing to sell the cheapest to the mostest of the dumbest........Going through the steps to put another product out there that will probably be disposable, due to the cheap components it will be necessary to use to hit that price point, will ultimately waste more resources without profiting anyone much, continue to support the cheap electric bike stereotype, and worst of all, make the market even more confusing for consumers, causing new manufacturers that are selling a more sustainably produced product at a justifiably higher price to have a harder time reaching potential customers.

So what features would I like my sub $1k electric bike to have:
Invisible frame, holographic wheels, and an imaginary motor.

Just my 2 cents.

I understand this POV. Last night I let my two girl roommates try my 250w ebike. They loved it, said they would buy it if I made a 'cool looking' one. Then they asked how much and I said $700 or so, plus bike.

They lost interest.

One of them drives a $25k Prius. But when it comes to real fun, reliable, MUCH more enviro-friendly transportation (ebike), they can't spend 5% of what they pay for their car. That's the situation the market is in. That's why things are the way they are. It's too bad IMO.

 

[x88x]

Thumb Throttle

Would this really cut costs that much? When I was looking at throttles a few weeks ago, it was only ~$5 difference between thumb, half, and full throttles. Personally, I think the throttle helps a lot in making something feel serious (might be my motorcycle background talking, idk). I've tried electric scooters with all three, and imo, thumb throttles just make it feel like a toy...not something we would want to promote, especially if it can be easily avoided for 1% more parts cost.

But when it comes to real fun, reliable, MUCH more enviro-friendly transportation (ebike), they can't spend 5% of what they pay for their car.

And therein lies the problem, really. I know I feel the same way, to an extent, even having spent a few months on here...though, my controller is coming tomorrow, so my tune might change in a few days. Also, there's the problem that 5% of what I paid for my car and truck is $150 and $0, respectively... :lol: Because of this and the matter of battery cost limiting the range available in a decent <=$1,000 ebike, I think the primary markets for such a thing should definitely be colleges and cities. Another prime target demographic that hasn't been mentioned (iirc) is the under-16 crowd. ..of course, it would require buy-in from the parents...but how many parents would buy their kid a $1,000 ebike if it meant they didn't have to drive them to school anymore? I know when I was ~14-15 I had a little electric Schwinn scooter that I rode to school for a while (<1mi), and I loved it...until I was an idiot and got banned from riding it to school.. But on that note, another thing that should be emphasized in the sales pitch is the legality of these. A big part of why I got banned from riding it to school was that a parent that I cut off in the parking lot (that was the being an idiot part) who happened to be a police officer told the principle that it was illegal to ride those sort of things on public roads. Now that I know the laws concerning them, I know that was a straight out lie...but I didn't know then, so I assumed he was right and shelved it. So, I think that educating the customer about the legal freedoms and restrictions in their locale would be a very important part of the sale. And along those lines, if the controller used is easily programmed as such, offer a program or service that would change the top speed limit from the federal limit to the customer's state limit (ex, federal limit == 20mph, MD state limit == 30mph), or the safe top speed of the model that they bought, whichever is lower. I know personally I would be much more likely to buy a commercial ebike (if, you know, I wanted to buy a commercial ebike...I much prefer building my own ) if it said it had a top speed of 30mph, not 20.

On the topic of battery again, since it is such a large cost for a decent sized battery, I think part of the system should be an easily user-upgradable battery system. As in, they buy it with the basic 10Ah pack, decide they like the bike but it needs more range, so they go back to you and buy another 5-10Ah unit, that they can easily snap in, just hooking up a couple simple connections, and the battery system automatically accommodates them. Think a modular sort of system, that any idiot could snap in another block. Or, maybe, offer free installation, and make the modular system for your own convenience. Maybe even make the BMS modular, so an additional series block could be added, and the BMS's could talk to each other.

 

[auraslip]

I think what we need is a good full suspension disc ready framekit. This frame would have an area that would hold up to 20Ah 48V pings. Maybe Ping would make a special narrow pack that would be the same dimensions of the turnigys in a 2 rows of four say 115mm X 230 mm X whatever height for a BMS. The frame mfg would supply a nice removable enclosure. The frame would have well designed bullet proof dropouts front and rear. The rest of the components would fall to the decision of the owner. Any ready to ride bike has too many legal restrictions to serve a global market.

YES YES YES YES. The closest thing we got is HAL's custom frame, but with a 200mm travel suspension fork and shipping it comes out to $1300 IIRC. A decent FS frame kit would easily be worth $1k to me.

The great part about frame mounted batteries is if you do it right, 30lbs of lead isn't that bad. The wal-mart ebikes were actually BETTER quality bicycles than the other cheap bikes they stocked, yet were only $200 more for the kit added on. I think the battery was a 24v7ah battery. TINY. SLOW. A 36v14 ah in the frame is completely doable and comfortable to ride, and I myself could put together that kit for $400 including the bike. Yeah, SLA sucks, but the bigger the capacity, the less pekuert effect and loss of cycle life issues. Also a smaller controller wouldn't hurt. IIRC a 14ah SLA can put out 10ah at a 10amp draw.

 

[Gordo]

Matt;
There are already quite robust beach cruiser style e-bikes that retail for $1695 but are available in quantity of 50 for $995. You will find them in several major cities as summer rentals. As the rental shops seldom need 50, they sell some off new at $1000 to get cash back and keep their cost down. At the end of the summer, they are normally blown out at $595 with an extra 36V 10Ah battery pack at $200.

If you can add front suspension, front disk and a pogo seat, this would meet the basic needs of a 20 mph bike. Can this be done for $1000?

 

[USAEBIKECO]

The public does not know what they want. I have had requests from customers for $600 ebikes and for $2k ebikes and a lot of interest in between. It is very hard to gauge what the consumers want. It varys depending on the disposable income of the customer.

I have noticed ebikes sell themselves when customers actually test ride one. They fall in love with it like we all did.

One problem is online ebike companies cant offer that hands on feel. Customers have a hard time comparing an a2b to a ezip. This is why we do conversions where the customer already has a bike they ride, we just make it electric.

In my opinion customers like the price range of around $1000. This is what our business model is based around but we also try and stay flexible for customers that want to spend more.

 

[Icewrench]

I like a thumb throttle because it is not part of the hand grip. A couple of test riders have had problems with a full twist throttle. They were not the best riders in town and would twist the grip while tmaking a turn and be surprised that the bike wanted to go faster when they really did not want to.

 

[x88x]

They were not the best riders in town and would twist the grip while tmaking a turn and be surprised that the bike wanted to go faster when they really did not want to.

...maybe it's my motorcycle background talking again, but...what the...how did they...yikes.

 

[MattyCiii]

My $0.02,
Focus on the bottom bracket, like the Optibike. Build and sell just the main part of the frame - but with a pedal only/motor only/hybrid drive to the spindle. Something like the Greyborg frame http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25459, but rather than a battery box, house the whole drive.

Offer a "default" rear suspension and front fork, but allow popele to BYO. This will work well mainly on the front fork part, where substituting "different"/"better" components will be much more flexible. But if rear sus geometry is pretty standard, people can buy the rear metal and source their own shock.

I think in the long run the genius is to power through the crank. Weight is centered and low. Forks, shocks, rims, spokes, hubs, etc are all stock, off-the shelf stuff people pick per their preference. This custom BB powerhouse has a box for batteries people can fill with their own preferred chemistry for power, C-rate, etc. Make a thousand of them, so many people buy and customize with their own version of what is best.

 

[mat h physics]

Now that is a nice model of an e-bike. I really like the moto-x style fork assembly.

Hard shell fairings could have some GP flair. Security may be high on some list, offer electronic tracking (parents know where ur kids are?)
People luv to change the graphics on their dirt bikes, entire market of it's own.

This could easily be done as a package less the bike and battery.

What's the most common triangle frame geometry, go from there.

 

[Gordo]

My $0.02,
Focus on the bottom bracket, like the Optibike. Build and sell just the main part of the frame - but with a pedal only/motor only/hybrid drive to the spindle. Something like the Greyborg frame http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=25459, but rather than a battery box, house the whole drive.

Offer a "default" rear suspension and front fork, but allow popele to BYO. This will work well mainly on the front fork part, where substituting "different"/"better" components will be much more flexible. But if rear sus geometry is pretty standard, people can buy the rear metal and source their own shock.

I think in the long run the genius is to power through the crank. Weight is centered and low. Forks, shocks, rims, spokes, hubs, etc are all stock, off-the shelf stuff people pick per their preference. This custom BB powerhouse has a box for batteries people can fill with their own preferred chemistry for power, C-rate, etc. Make a thousand of them, so many people buy and customize with their own version of what is best.

I like all these suggestions. A hub-style motor in the frame at the BB. Timma style box frame without tubes.

 

[recumpence]

I am meeting with the importer this afternoon. He is coming by to ride the 3 bikes I have up and running and to discuss his findings on this project. We are still both very cautious and not making any commitments. But, we are enjoying the pursuit of this possibility anyway. Who knows, maybe we will see something come of this! I can say we have both been doing our homework on this project and are excited, but guarded about this endeavor.

I will keep you posted.

Matt